State of the Game

[Surrealistik]

Maybe the marines getting their ass beat when taking the initiative offensively makes narrative sense, but in terms of actual gameplay it can and will result in the turtling/defensive play that the admins and many others complain about.

[Durper]

Maybe the marines getting their ass beat when taking the initiative offensively makes narrative sense, but in terms of actual gameplay it can and will result in the turtling/defensive play that the admins and many others complain about.

literally just the players fault they decide weather to attack or defend.

I just get annoyed when marines retreat back to the sulaco even though they still have enough people and defenses to hold the planet. is it this you're talking about? because that's the fault of the marine players not figuring out how to communicate and resupply.

[Surrealistik]

I'm talking about defensive play in general. Yes, it is technically up to the Marines to decide whether or not they want to go on the offense, but defense is favoured because the game mechanics _very_ strongly favour turtling and counterattacking.

[Durper]

I'm talking about defensive play in general. Yes, it is technically up to the Marines to decide whether or not they want to go on the offense, but defense is favoured because the game mechanics _very_ strongly favour turtling and counterattacking.

If marines are beaten back and are defending they would have to turtle up until they get overwhelmed or until they whittle down the Xeno's enough to make a counter offensive.

[Monoo]

I'm with you on the offense bit. For a force designed to strike hard and fast by literally dropping into a combat zone, marines suck pretty bad at actually attacking and pushing. Any offensive moves across the river, especially early game, are destroyed. Marines simply CAN'T keep going for long periods of time. 2-3 facehuggers shred the head area, and ravagers can lop off feet in seconds. These injuries can send the marine back to the Sully, where they dick around for more than 30 minutes before being put back on the ground. Medicine for such serious injuries need to be implemented, along with ways to make more established offensive bases so that any coordinated attack on the caves doesn't disintegrate in the event of Praetorians and Ravagers.

[Sargeantmuffinman]

I don't think my point is being understood.

I acknowledge that dismantling the hive is important, however as repeatedly said, this doesn't incur in a vacuum: during this demolition process you are under pressure by the aliens, while facing down dwindling ammo and supplies, and mounting injuries, including those that will take you out of the fight. Destroying a developed hive's defenses takes a _lot_ of time and ammo (which increases dramatically if they have a Hivelord rebuilding), during which you are eating spit, Queen screams and hit and run. The fundamental problem is that marines simply do not have the tools to deal with a full strength hive in a timely manner, _before_ the injuries mount to the point where retreat is obligated, and losses in excess of the damage dealt to the xenos, are incurred.


@ Nubs: 7 vs 5 isn't exactly a good representation, especially if the Xeno castes were lower or non-combat tiers. Further, assaults made as a counterattack can definitely succeed, but the problem is they as a rule must be counterattacks outside of rush tactics.

Yes I do agree with the what you said about marines being somewhat under-equiped to assault alien fortifications,hives and will be dwindled down by hit and run tactics. All they need is tactics and co-operation to win.

[MrJJJ]

I really don't get the "git gud" thing, do people even know how much of our playerbase doesn't even view forums?

[Joe4444]

as stated above its the fact marines don't have the right stuff to attack. Hives can be impossible to brake through if they xenos have a good drone. Turtling is just so much easier because we HAVE the tools for that like the turret,ENGS,loads of metal and holding the FOB is the only way to get new marines without them being picked off. Broken bones can take a marine out the game for 30 minutes which is one of the MAIN reasons they don't want to push. They are scared they might get captured or messed up by a rav. Why is this though? why do we not charge when we should? its simple really. We don't know the numbers of the xenos. We don't know how many ravs they got or pares or ANYTHING. Which is why I'm gonna LOVE this xeno caste limits. All we know(OOcly) is that they are in the caves and they have a queen and loads of eggs. Marines don't like going head first into xeno ranks because they don't know WHAT they have. They could have enough ravs to kill a entire squad. They could have a bunch of praes suppressing the marines who are too bitchy to put some rounds down range and try push them back. Thus giving the xenos the chance to flank. Which is the next problem for attacking. Marines don't have the manpower to block all the exits to the caves AND assault at the same time. There's just too many exits to the caves for aliens to flank BUT this works the other way. The only problem is marines can't push too fronts at the same time because people get confused thus the assaults get taken down leading to the fall back off ALL marines. Another fact. Xenos don't need supplies other than weeds which are easy to get. We have to worry about not losing our gun or running out of ammo. Unlike xenos WE NEED AMMO. marines can only carry so much and me myself take 3 rounds for my primary and secondary. There's so many factors in assaulting a hive that only some players know when to push and when to retreat. I don't like to gloat or anything but most of the time when I say FALL THE FUCK BACK we're being surrounded or losing too many marines. Hats the thing about marines. In the movies they were AMAZING at assaulting in 2 squads. We have 4 and are good at defence and in the movies they had LESS than us. So why then? why are marines so bad at assaulting? is it cloning? no because your not gonna get cloned most of the time. Is it the stuff I've been talking about? they play into it but no. the main reason is marines don't Think like the marines SHOULD. they didn't know how many xenos there were down there but they knew what was down there. They rushed in head on hoping to get the OP over and done with as fast as they can.In the end they DID lose but its the story they told to get there. that's no what the marines in the movie were hoping for but its what the director and cast were going for. Its also what we SHOULD be going for. Its not if we win or not. Its the story told to GET to that point. The thing is...no one wants to die in a story and no one wants to die in this game because how long rounds can last. There it is...the reason marines keep losing to me is...WE DON'T THINK LIKE WE SHOULD.WE just want to stay alive not thinking about anything else. They don't think what happens if they lose. The aliens now have a ship that could wipe out our entire race. Depending on the round the xenos could have wiped out a colony in mere days. Think what they can do now? they can do that over and over until they get another ship. The hive would probably spit up here and then you have 2 HIVES IN SPACE. If marines want to assault and win they have to THINK like a marine. Charge in headfirst not matter WHAT happens. Hold out letting your squad retreat. Its things like this that make marines fight harder like we should. They are killing our brothers in arms and we still fight the same. Right there's my paragraph done. Roast as you please

[Feweh]

Game is balanced towards aliens, well its supposed to be.
The entire CM design is geared towards Marines fighting a long drawn heoric battle to the end. This has been stated numerous times by Apop and dev.

Problem right now is that aliens are getting obliterated by Marine defenses and need more punch for sieges.

[Surrealistik]

CM balance is seriously supposed to be biased towards marines losing as opposed to trying to be as even as possible? If that's true I'm very disappointed.

[Feweh]

CM balance is seriously supposed to be biased towards marines losing as opposed to trying to be as even as possible? If that's true I'm very disappointed.

100% yes.

CM is based around the second alien movie. Fighting a losing battle in heroic and adventurous situations.

Having your last stand in the FOB while calling a orbital strike.

Defending the shuttle while aliens are swarming and sacrificing yourself so the wounded can get out.

Holding off aliens on Sulaco while the injured evacuate and escape with just seconds left.


There are rare and interesting Xeno situations like these. Theyll probably never be as there isnt much RP from them. No one ever attacks a Hive and gets the same adrenaline or feeling as they do than when defending the FOB or Sulaco. Killing the Xenos is a boring experience of hunting down the last runner who no one can catch.

[SASoperative]

100% yes.

CM is based around the second alien movie. Fighting a losing battle in heroic and adventurous situations.

Having your last stand in the FOB while calling a orbital strike.

Defending the shuttle while aliens are swarming and sacrificing yourself so the wounded can get out.

Holding off aliens on Sulaco while the injured evacuate and escape with just seconds left.


There are rare and interesting Xeno situations like these. Theyll probably never be as there isnt much RP from them. No one ever attacks a Hive and gets the same adrenaline or feeling as they do than when defending the FOB or Sulaco. Killing the Xenos is a boring experience of hunting down the last runner who no one can catch.

Yes. However all of this could be avoided if you simply had protocol on how to stop marines from having to hunt down that last xenomorph like that as the suggestions thread has suggested multiple times... Not to mention if you play solely as a marine. As me and my friends normally always did we found it to be sort of well... To be honest just unfun when aliens could so easily curb stomp your ass nearly every round. What would be the point of playing the game if your main reason for even playing as a marine is to follow the lore and just die? Dying in just about any game period is not fun at all let alone space station 13 due to its brutal system of round based permadeath basically. Sure you could join as a Xeno but lets be honest here. Even when you go to join as a xeno that just solidifies the point that your entire cycle as a marine is to die. rinse and repeat, Balanced gameplay in my opinion is a must if you wish to actually have a enjoyable experience. And before some giant train happens this is just matter of opinion. Other people will think differently others will not. In regards to no one attacking the hive lets go right back up to the statement of marines should be losing. And since a skilled alien can easily take down a squad of marines (Experienced ones or not) it really defeats any reason to try and fight them on their turf. The fact of the matter is. Aliens are designed to attack. Marines are designed to turtle and defend... That is how I have always seen it as, Marines win with range while aliens win at melee combat which the caves where 90% of the time they have a hive at provides plenty of.
I end this off by stating I probably fucking sucked on my sentence structure but I honestly do not care. I am stating my opinion on the game and getting a point across.

[Monoo]

100% yes.

CM is based around the second alien movie. Fighting a losing battle in heroic and adventurous situations.

Having your last stand in the FOB while calling a orbital strike.

Defending the shuttle while aliens are swarming and sacrificing yourself so the wounded can get out.

Holding off aliens on Sulaco while the injured evacuate and escape with just seconds left.


There are rare and interesting Xeno situations like these. Theyll probably never be as there isnt much RP from them. No one ever attacks a Hive and gets the same adrenaline or feeling as they do than when defending the FOB or Sulaco. Killing the Xenos is a boring experience of hunting down the last runner who no one can catch.

I get that, and I agree that RPing out your last stand is fun and all, but not if it happens every single round. I'd also like to point out that some of my fondest memories are of successfully storming a hive and wiping the xenos out. The reason that assaults are usually not fun is because they're difficult and broken for the marines.

[forwardslashN]

I have a lot more fun fighting aliens and losing than standing around the FOB and winning. That's just me though.

[SovietKitty]

Boilers do a good job of disrupting the FoB defenses. Aliens have all the answers it's just them being smart enough to use the tools they have. Marines have to employ specs with snipers or do a counter offensive to stop two boilers from just melting all their barricades down and softening up targets. Doing that makes them leave their nest, and leaves them open to flanks. I don't see the problem that much. It's better than both sides zerg rushing the other and rounds ending in 20 minutes.

[jalen earl]

Lack of orders and lack of coordination are the big killers.

Same thing happens on marine assaults.everytime they approach all fanned out in squads but the second they hit caves everyone bunches together. Ive only seen it twice but when marines flank caves from 2 sides its devasting for xenos

The worst thing they always do is bunch into a bottle neck,for praetorians and boilers its fish in a barrel for them.

Also yesterday was a great example i must of caught out 4 solo rambos, 3 were specialists who wasted all their spec gear getting caught and one medic who tried to take me down alone as a Ravager with a service pistol.

[Feweh]

Honestly aliens just suffer from newbies. Its a lot harder to learn the alien mechanics and be robust than it is for marine.

I alone can take out 5-15 marines a round as a ravager. Meanwhile my team mate ravagers are running away from flamethrowers.

[Surrealistik]

Lack of orders and lack of coordination are the big killers.

Same thing happens on marine assaults.everytime they approach all fanned out in squads but the second they hit caves everyone bunches together. Ive only seen it twice but when marines flank caves from 2 sides its devasting for xenos

The worst thing they always do is bunch into a bottle neck,for praetorians and boilers its fish in a barrel for them.

Also yesterday was a great example i must of caught out 4 solo rambos, 3 were specialists who wasted all their spec gear getting caught and one medic who tried to take me down alone as a Ravager with a service pistol.

There are certainly things the marines can do to improve their chances; flanking is one of them, but in balance it's very much an uphill climb, particularly as a smart hive will engage in a fighting retreat, while the Hivelord/Drones delay as much as possible with new structures and expand the hive in the direction of the retreat. Basically, assuming equal levels of skill between both sides, and with adequate T3s, aliens will trounce on defense; Marines need a huge skill advantage over the Xenos to win as long as the Aliens know to play the long game and exploit the weakness of marines (limited supplies/ammo, breaking/limited helms, and crippling injuries), and the strengths of the Xenos (fast regeneration, unlimited ranged attack spam, immunity to crippling injuries) to grind them down into oblivion/retreat.


Overall, I'm pretty miffed that Marines are meant to lose and hope that this design goal is reconsidered. Taking away the ability of Marines to tank up, the only way they're able to consistently succeed, and increasing the pro-Alien bias even further will put a serious damper on my enthusiasm for the game.

[LordLoko]

as stated above its the fact marines don't have the right stuff to attack. Hives can be impossible to brake through if they xenos have a good drone. Turtling is just so much easier because we HAVE the tools for that like the turret,ENGS,loads of metal and holding the FOB is the only way to get new marines without them being picked off. Broken bones can take a marine out the game for 30 minutes which is one of the MAIN reasons they don't want to push. They are scared they might get captured or messed up by a rav. Why is this though? why do we not charge when we should? its simple really. We don't know the numbers of the xenos. We don't know how many ravs they got or pares or ANYTHING. Which is why I'm gonna LOVE this xeno caste limits. All we know(OOcly) is that they are in the caves and they have a queen and loads of eggs. Marines don't like going head first into xeno ranks because they don't know WHAT they have. They could have enough ravs to kill a entire squad. They could have a bunch of praes suppressing the marines who are too bitchy to put some rounds down range and try push them back. Thus giving the xenos the chance to flank. Which is the next problem for attacking. Marines don't have the manpower to block all the exits to the caves AND assault at the same time. There's just too many exits to the caves for aliens to flank BUT this works the other way. The only problem is marines can't push too fronts at the same time because people get confused thus the assaults get taken down leading to the fall back off ALL marines. Another fact. Xenos don't need supplies other than weeds which are easy to get. We have to worry about not losing our gun or running out of ammo. Unlike xenos WE NEED AMMO. marines can only carry so much and me myself take 3 rounds for my primary and secondary. There's so many factors in assaulting a hive that only some players know when to push and when to retreat. I don't like to gloat or anything but most of the time when I say FALL THE FUCK BACK we're being surrounded or losing too many marines. Hats the thing about marines. In the movies they were AMAZING at assaulting in 2 squads. We have 4 and are good at defence and in the movies they had LESS than us. So why then? why are marines so bad at assaulting? is it cloning? no because your not gonna get cloned most of the time. Is it the stuff I've been talking about? they play into it but no. the main reason is marines don't Think like the marines SHOULD. they didn't know how many xenos there were down there but they knew what was down there. They rushed in head on hoping to get the OP over and done with as fast as they can.In the end they DID lose but its the story they told to get there. that's no what the marines in the movie were hoping for but its what the director and cast were going for. Its also what we SHOULD be going for. Its not if we win or not. Its the story told to GET to that point. The thing is...no one wants to die in a story and no one wants to die in this game because how long rounds can last. There it is...the reason marines keep losing to me is...WE DON'T THINK LIKE WE SHOULD.WE just want to stay alive not thinking about anything else. They don't think what happens if they lose. The aliens now have a ship that could wipe out our entire race. Depending on the round the xenos could have wiped out a colony in mere days. Think what they can do now? they can do that over and over until they get another ship. The hive would probably spit up here and then you have 2 HIVES IN SPACE. If marines want to assault and win they have to THINK like a marine. Charge in headfirst not matter WHAT happens. Hold out letting your squad retreat. Its things like this that make marines fight harder like we should. They are killing our brothers in arms and we still fight the same. Right there's my paragraph done. Roast as you please

TL;DR:

[jalen earl]

Now that every marine is usually packing a grenade launcher, another tactic thats rarely used as well is a sustained barrage of nades sieging a hive. Most xenos run from it and it opens it all up. Pair that with mining and marines can launch a fairly strong assault.

As for gameplay marines should always be on the back foot its supposed to be sci-fi/horror immersion. a marine win from assault is supposed to be hard (fighting in the dark against fast moving aliens that know the terrain better) and should rely on heavy planning not just a few lucky shots or a complete steamroll

[Durper]

There are certainly things the marines can do to improve their chances; flanking is one of them, but in balance it's very much an uphill climb, particularly as a smart hive will engage in a fighting retreat, while the Hivelord/Drones delay as much as possible with new structures and expand the hive in the direction of the retreat. Basically, assuming equal levels of skill between both sides, and with adequate T3s, aliens will trounce on defense; Marines need a huge skill advantage over the Xenos to win as long as the Aliens know to play the long game and exploit the weakness of marines (limited supplies/ammo, breaking/limited helms, and crippling injuries), and the strengths of the Xenos (fast regeneration, unlimited ranged attack spam, immunity to crippling injuries) to grind them down into oblivion/retreat.


Overall, I'm pretty miffed that Marines are meant to lose and hope that this design goal is reconsidered. Taking away the ability of Marines to tank up, the only way they're able to consistently succeed, and increasing the pro-Alien bias even further will put a serious damper on my enthusiasm for the game.

Think about the Xeno player base too, if marines get an offensive buff xeno players will be discourage to play as Xeno, and less Xeno means less things to kill the marines making the game easy and boring for all of us.

that's why I'm fine with Xeno's getting a buff instead, as long as it's not too BS(like the prae spit machine gun and Resin cuffs).

Also again Gameplay and IC standpoint fighting the Xeno's is suppose to be hard they're suppose to be exploiting weakness this server is pvp which means actual people play the game which makes fighting each other complex and challenging

Marines have all the tools they need to fight the Xeno's if they loose they loose, if they win they win.

Again if you want a Map and gamemode where Marines are 100% outfitted to combat the Xeno's then make a suggestion about that, Lazarus is a first contact scenario.

[Wickedtemp]

Marines have plenty of offensive options. Mainly, guns and attachments, explosives, SADARs, grenades, flamers, etc. The problem is that they just sit in the FOB until it gets overrun, from what I've been seeing personally. Marines suffer from shitty Command, often times. This is sometimes compensated for with sheer numbers where they can just rush the hive and come out on top due to outnumbering the xenos 8 to 1. However on low-pop, if you don't play smart, you die. And that's the problem with marines. A large part of the marine players are just like a good portion of the "stereotypical runners"...

"MAYBE IF I JUST RUN TOWARDS THEM ENOUGH, THEY'LL GET TIRED AND DIE!"

Marines have the tools. Too many of them just aren't smart enough to use them. And, remember, most of the players on CM don't ever look at the forums. They have no interest in keeping their character alive. If they die, oh well, they'll just log out, exit byond, and play something else. They don't care. Xenos have players like this, marines have players like this, it's up to the regular players to pick up the slack that the others leave behind. You want to assault the hive? Have different squads attack the caves in different locations instead of one giant mass, so you don't shoot yourselves to death. Want to survive the xeno assault? Take out the boiler that's bombarding you, for one, and work from there. There are SO MANY WAYS that you could change things up and potentially even wipe out the hive, if the marines just bothered to learn.

[Surrealistik]

Marines have plenty of offensive options. Mainly, guns and attachments, explosives, SADARs, grenades, flamers, etc. The problem is that they just sit in the FOB until it gets overrun, from what I've been seeing personally. Marines suffer from shitty Command, often times. This is sometimes compensated for with sheer numbers where they can just rush the hive and come out on top due to outnumbering the xenos 8 to 1. However on low-pop, if you don't play smart, you die. And that's the problem with marines. A large part of the marine players are just like a good portion of the "stereotypical runners"...

"MAYBE IF I JUST RUN TOWARDS THEM ENOUGH, THEY'LL GET TIRED AND DIE!"

Marines have the tools. Too many of them just aren't smart enough to use them. And, remember, most of the players on CM don't ever look at the forums. They have no interest in keeping their character alive. If they die, oh well, they'll just log out, exit byond, and play something else. They don't care. Xenos have players like this, marines have players like this, it's up to the regular players to pick up the slack that the others leave behind. You want to assault the hive? Have different squads attack the caves in different locations instead of one giant mass, so you don't shoot yourselves to death. Want to survive the xeno assault? Take out the boiler that's bombarding you, for one, and work from there. There are SO MANY WAYS that you could change things up and potentially even wipe out the hive, if the marines just bothered to learn.

So you basically ignored the thread detailing exactly why Marines turtle, and why the majority of their wins stem from counterattacks, lazily resorting to a long winded version of 'git gud', effectively ignoring the fact that all things being equal, the aliens have massive advantages which effectively require either overwhelming numbers on behalf of the marines (such as the kind you enjoy during a counterattack of a failed assault by the aliens on FOB), or overwhelming skill vs the Aliens when going on offense.

The problem with the tools isn't that the Marines aren't smart enough to use them, it's that they're inadequate, and don't do the job fast enough before the marines are worn down by a capable alien defense. Hell, the admins flat out admitted that the balance is biased in the aliens' favour and that still isn't enough for you.

[Durper]

So you basically ignored the thread detailing exactly why Marines turtle, and why the majority of their wins stem from counterattacks, lazily resorting to a long winded version of 'git gud', effectively ignoring the fact that all things being equal, the aliens have massive advantages which effectively require either overwhelming numbers on behalf of the marines (such as the kind you enjoy during a counterattack of a failed assault by the aliens on FOB), or overwhelming skill vs the Aliens when going on offense.

The problem with the tools isn't that the Marines aren't smart enough to use them, it's that they're inadequate, and don't do the job fast enough before the marines are worn down by a capable alien defense. Hell, the admins flat out admitted that the balance is biased in the aliens' favour and that still isn't enough for you.

Again that's the entire point.

Marines are suppose to have problems fighting Xeno's.

Also the "tools"?

If you gave a untrained person a machine gun and made him fight a seasoned Veteran in jungle combat, the Veteran would sneak up behind the guy with the gun slitting his throat.

It all comes down to how good the marines can use their weapons and equipment.

Bias or not it's the players that make the game balanced

[Surrealistik]

In otherwords, what you're essentially saying is that as long as it's veteran marines vs alien noobs, and/or the marines have overwhelming numbers, the game is balanced.

That's a problem.