Special weapons and salt

[Neray]

Last round we had a very cool situation in which newborn queen managed to stun SADAR spec and another marine nearby, hugger-stun spec and then she got killed by heavily wounded marine that took spec's SADAR lying of a ground and shot her from 2 tiles away.

mileswolfe Announces:
Ey marines, you should know that all specialist weapons are restricted to specialists, and high ranking officers, meaning that only the CO, XO, and specialists can use them. that means no sadar, sniper rifles, GL, smartgun, nothing. Further info can be found here. wiki/Marine_Equipment

Miles was that queen, which he pointed out in a dead chat, and kept on pushing his opinion that usual marines don't know how to use the most simple weapon in corp's arsenal (boomstick).

I gave him and another dead alien link to USMC wiki page ("everyone is a rifleman" thing) and also stated that in any modern army AT weapons training is a part of basic education. That's what he replied:

DEAD: Queen says, "USCM != US Marine Corps"

So, basically, our USCM marines are plain civilians with guns. I can agree that smartgun and B-18 might need some special training, but hell, SADAR and sniper (not even pointing out GL) are VERY easy to use IRL. The only possible issue here can be that aiming those things at longer range can be hard for a total newbie (RPG, for example, has a really strange prop system and you should aim it AT the wind, not against it). Otherwise, modern (21th century) AT weapons are as easy to use as a pistol and I doubt that it will change in 22th.

TrialAdmin PM from Freemysoul: Listen, Neray. I don't like the fact it's not allowed, But please don't use Specialist weapons again, Barring the flamer.

Pretty sure I saw Apop himself pointing out that everyone can use SADAR.

And yeah, don't consider it a report against someone, I just want to get a better picture on this topic.

[TeknoKot]

Hi, I was part of that round, when you called me an attention whore LOOCly even though I just fucking wasted like 7+ xenos, but meh.

It's annoying, yes, I also remember Apop saying something about that SADAR can be used by anyone, we had standards using it for a long time and it was never an issue up until these new updates kept coming along.

edit:: also fucked up an Elite Ravager solo with quickfire+grip, now I'm guessing quickfire's about to get nerfed.

[Neray]

Hi, I was part of that round, when you called me an attention whore LOOCly even though I just fucking wasted like 7+ xenos, but meh.

It's annoying, yes, I also remember Apop saying something about that SADAR can be used by anyone, we had standards using it for a long time and it was never an issue up until these new updates kept coming along.

edit:: also fucked up an Elite Ravager solo with quickfire+grip, now I'm guessing quickfire's about to get nerfed.

Meow, don't get it too personally. I just don't like Omega armor :3

Also, it was a really cool round. Got my hands on both SVD and MAR-30, u-u-uh.

[slc97]

So, if you want to point to RL as your example, most marine squads basic Marines carry a rifle and a sidearm. Besides that, there are sniper specialists, heavy weapons specialists, demolition specialists, etc.
As far as the mods are informed, a non-specialist or high ranking officer taking specialist items is meta-gaming as they would not have received specialized training in those weapons.
If Apop or any of the other higher ups decide to change that, then cool. For now though, it is against the rules to be a non-specialist or high ranking and take specialist items.

[Neray]

So, if you want to point to RL as your example, most marine squads basic Marines carry a rifle and a sidearm. Besides that, there are sniper specialists, heavy weapons specialists, demolition specialists, etc.
As far as the mods are informed, a non-specialist or high ranking officer taking specialist items is meta-gaming as they would not have received specialized training in those weapons.
If Apop or any of the other higher ups decide to change that, then cool. For now though, it is against the rules to be a non-specialist or high ranking and take specialist items.

Hm, what about W-Y supply pods? Last time I checked if marines can get their hands on spare special weapons they always use em. Alright, no point in this ERT then. Also, speaking of the situation the issue happend in: marine saw a dropped SADAR next to him, his own weapon was lying away so he just grabbed it and pulled a trigger. Boom. I can't find anything hard in pulling a trigger. Feels more like someone's personal opinion than a well-thought-out rule. Thanks for your feedback, though.

most marine squads basic Marines carry a rifle and a sidearm

Regardless of your role, everyone in any modern army is being trained with AT weapons at some point. Even here in cold wastelands of Russia, in its poor and badly equiped army they'll train you to use those.

[coroneljones]

Point number 1, Miles was NOT the queen when that announcement came, it was ahelped

And thats all im here to point out for now

[Neray]

Point number 1, Miles was NOT the queen when that announcement came, it was ahelped

And thats all im here to point out for now

Oh, yeah, thanks. Queen said "I was the one who made that rule" and since after few minutes Miles's announcement came out, I thought they're the same person.

[TeknoKot]

..Why in the hell do you need a heavy specialized training to use either a grenade launcher or a rocket launcher. If you were using something like fucking targetting system one, them fancy ones ofc, you'd need specialized training, but SADAR, the one we use? It's basically a fucking RPG.

Grenade launchers are another thing, what, the, fuck? We're given UGL's and they share the same thing, load a nade, go ham.

[Toroic]

The problem with allowing specialist weapons to be picked up by anyone is that a specialist who dies and is cloned would never get it back. The other problem is that smartgun is considered too complicated to just pick up and use, it goes from a mediocre choice to a bad choice.


It sounds like this rule was selectively enforced in the past because it is totally realistic that Marines will be able to use those weapons, but the solution is to either keep it and enforce it or change it

[TopHatPenguin]

Imo, I think all of the spec weapons would be fairly easy to use besides the smartgun because that would most likely require a fair bit of training, where as with the other spec weapons you have a fairly decent understanding of how they work, well roughly.

Which is why I propose a suggestion which if you chaps like i'll turn into a suggestion thread.

The suggestion:

Basically if a standard marine or anyone other job (probably exclude the Sulaco jobs) picks up any of the spec weapons they'll have decreased accuracy with said weapon due to not recieving the proper training.(Exclude the smartgun from this as well.)I mean if you want you could also add that if you have any ID which isn't of a squad based job you can't fire the sadar as well to help keep the number of rules down and means less enforcement needed due to how if someone stole an Id it would just go under our Id theft rules.

It would just be some relatively simple code changes? (perhaps) for a good pay off that rules like this wouldn't need to be enforced anymore.

Thoughts on this would be great.

[Neray]

The suggestion:

Basically if a standard marine or anyone other job (probably exclude the Sulaco jobs) picks up any of the spec weapons they'll have decreased accuracy with said weapon due to not recieving the proper training.(Exclude the smartgun from this as well.)I mean if you want you could also add that if you have any ID which isn't of a squad based job you can't fire the sadar as well to help keep the number of rules down and means less enforcement needed due to how if someone stole an Id it would just go under our Id theft rules.

It would just be some relatively simple code changes? (perhaps) for a good pay off that rules like this wouldn't need to be enforced anymore.

Thoughts on this would be great.

Since SADAR lacks any means of counting accuracy, that won't work for it. More though, it doesn't need it. I guess your suggestion should be applied only to smartgun (PFCs can use sniper weapons, after all, we've got rail scopes), but anyway we'll need to count PMCs and ERT in general, CO/XO, specs and probably squad leaders as exceptions. GL, SADAR and sniper should be available to everyone without any drawbacks.

[EMT_321]

I was an FMF corpsman who barely made qual on rifles, and even I could fire a LAW. Its not a complicated weapon.

Its one thing to punish people yanking weapons from specialists- its another thing to expressly forbid the diffusion of heavy weapons responsibility when a specialist goes down. Given how useful the SADAR is, mandating that it be left in storage if the spec is taken down is foolish.

[Neray]

I think we should move that "stealing" part into "being a dick" rule, cause this is what it is. If spec noticed that his weapon was taken and no one returned it after THAT ONE FIGHT ended - he should ahelp it and things will be happening as usual. On the other hand, we won't have any problems with marines using some of special weapons after, for example, spec dropped it and was eaten by an alien. Or W-Y/ERT supply pods, that quite frequently comes with SADARs.

UPD: In original film Private Vasquez was just a private and smartgun was considered a usual marine weapon on a same level as M41 and flamer.

Usually you're being trained to use every weapon in your arsenal.

[Feweh]

We're now ID locking specialist weapons.
This is why we cant have nice things people.

[EMT_321]

We're now ID locking specialist weapons.
This is why we cant have nice things people.

Does that apply to flamers as well?

This seems like an excessive response if so. I dont understand how this is necessary, if people stealing spec weapons unduly are punished for it.

[Neray]

We're now ID locking specialist weapons.
This is why we cant have nice things people.

And what about ERT without IDs and W-Y drops? WO mode as well. Feweh, I don't think Apop will approve this.

[Feweh]

And what about ERT without IDs and W-Y drops? WO mode as well. Feweh, I don't think Apop will approve this.

Dev will sort out all the ERTs, we're discussing it now and theyll figure something out.

No idea why you even mentioned Apop not approving this, you have 0 idea of how we work internally.

[Neray]

No idea why you even mentioned Apop not approving this, you have 0 idea of how we work internally.

I cleary remember him saying that everyone can use SADAR. That's why I mentioned it in a first place. Also, I gave IRL reasons why locking SADAR and marksman only to specs is a total bullshit. If we're trying to keep at least some sort of roleplay here, we should get rid of this. Otherwise our USCM are as uncanon (and unrealistic) as it could get and should be renamed to Kids From Middle Ages.

[Feweh]

I cleary remember him saying that everyone can use SADAR. That's why I mentioned it in a first place. Also, I gave IRL reasons why locking SADAR and marksman only to specs is a total bullshit. If we're trying to keep at least some sort of roleplay here, we should get rid of this. Otherwise our USCM are as uncanon as it could get and should be renamed to Kids From Middle Ages.

It's a video-game, this is done for balancing reasons and to maintain a form of order. Logic and real life examples are fine, but its not what we want from CM.

[Neray]

It's a video-game, this is done for balancing reasons and to maintain a form of order. Logic and real life examples are fine, but its not what we want from CM.

It's a video-game and there's no gameplay problems with marines using SADARs. Basically you're nerfing em so much that once first wave of specs dies, no one will be able to use spec weapons (even new ones from W-Y), and this is the only thing that saves em in long rounds. Also, reminder - you can't promote anyone to spec rank cause that's against the rules.

What you're doing will have a major impact of gameplay and will be a game ruiner. Since Apop is our lead here, you should consult those things with him, that's a fucking common sense, Feweh.

I already told you, that problem with people stealing specs weapons can be solved by moving it to "not be a dick" rule.

[EMT_321]

I am curious as to what greater good is served by ID locking all specialist weapons. Can someone explain why this is the viable only solution?

I dont see how its unbalanced to allow marines to pick up a simple rocket launcher/sniper rifle if its primary operator is incapacitated. Is there an enduring problem we are not aware of?

Given the importance of specialist weapons, and the inability to promote people to specialist rank (why do we have ID consoles then?), this will significanly harm marines organization and order, especially after the 90 minute mark.

[Feweh]

What you're doing will have a major impact of gameplay and will be a game ruiner. Since Apop is our lead here, you should consult those things with him, that's a fucking common sense, Feweh.

I already told you, that problem with people stealing specs weapons can be solved by moving it to "not be a dick" rule.

Once again, DEV team is handling this and im relaying information.

As you said "its common fucking sense" to think of this on your own and understand you have no idea how we function internally. So lets use some of your own "fucking common sense" and realize that we're most likely going to sort it out as a team. (ie; dev will obviously speak to Apop).

But as I said, some form of restriction will be applied to support the rules we have in place.

[Neray]

Once again, DEV team is handling this and im relaying information.

As you said "its common fucking sense" to think of this on your own and understand you have no idea how we function internally. So lets use some of your own "fucking common sense" and realize that we're most likely going to sort it out as a team. (ie; dev will obviously speak to Apop).

But as I said, some form of restriction will be applied to support the rules we have in place.

I'm just giving you a feedback from player side. It'll have a major impact on marines and will seriously shift balance towards aliens. There're lots of ways to shift it and this is one of worst options possible. This is MY opinion, you can ignore it as much as you like, but I'm pretty sure lots of players, good players should I say, will agree with me.

Please, think twice before trying to implement such game breaking features.

[Feweh]

I'm just giving you a feedback from player side. It'll have a major impact on marines and will seriously shift balance towards aliens. There're lots of ways to shift it and this is one of worst options possible. This is MY opinion, you can ignore it as much as you like, but I'm pretty sure lots of players, good players should I say, will agree with me.

Please, think twice before trying to implement such game breaking features.

The problem is youre basically making a suggestion AGAINST the current rules we have in-place regarding current specialist gear.

If we added a mechanic regarding ID restrictions it would only enforce the RULES we CURRENTLY have in place and make it so admins dont need to track down troublesome players.

Which youre allowed to suggest and give your opinion on. I was just saying we're going to add a mechanic to support our current rules, where as you're upset because you dont like the rules regarding specialist equipment currently.

[Neray]

The problem is youre basically making a suggestion AGAINST the current rules we have in-place regarding current specialist gear.

If we added a mechanic regarding ID restrictions it would only enforce the RULES we CURRENTLY have in place and make it so admins dont need to track down troublesome players.

Which youre allowed to suggest and give your opinion on. I was just saying we're going to add a mechanic to support our current rules, where as you're upset because you dont like the rules regarding specialist equipment currently.

Point is, it's not the rule, at least I was unable to find anything about spec equipment here.

Even metagame part doesn't contain anything about it:

No Metagaming:- Acting upon knowledge your character does not have.
Examples:
Dragging lockers filled with weapons and ammo down to the planet before first contact. First aid supply boxes are OK.
Bringing additional power-packs to the FOB prior to first contact.
Welding vents before seeing the Xenos use them or before they've boarded the Sulaco.
Equipping hardsuit helmets and other face protection before knowing about facehuggers.
Setting up defenses on the Sulaco before the Queen sends/receives drop pods/shuttles for the first time. (Note: there will be a big alarm when the queen uses the shuttle consoles.)
"Ramboing" - Chasing down Xenos immediately after first contact.
Doctors performing larva removal surgery without first determining what's really wrong with the patient (using the bodyscanner)
Suicide without an EXTREMELY good reason. "I'm logging out", or "Just Because" are subject to an immediate ban. Just leave.
As a Xeno: damaging any systems to prevent setup. Do not melt key power or atmos components.

So far, it's only a recommendation from someone to not allow marines to use those weapons.

If it's a rule, please, add it to rules list so we would be able to suggest its removal. If not, please, stop enforcing it.