Thoughts on cloning removal.

[KingKire]

So whats everyone's thoughts on cloning removal? I was first against it, but the more i thought about it, the more i kinda like having cloning not become a "standard" part of Colonial Marines. Now, i love what cloning does, it allows a player to come back into the fight after a bad game, which is a nice gameplay aspect. But I think that if the removal of cloning comes through, we'll have a stronger game left after the fact.

What i see happening after clonings removal:
-Rounds going faster, as the ebb and flow of new marines becomes minimized by clones coming to the field. This means more games overall, and less chance for extremely long rounds to develop.

-More players available to take over for xeno roles. This could help reduce the salt from a bad marine death as players recognize that xenos are the official "second" life of the game to use. This in turn helps establish a stronger playerbase and understanding for xeno roles.

-More emphasis on survival. Marines are more inclined to try and have their one life mean much more, probably sticking closer together, putting more emphasis at getting people out of situations instead of getting stuck into them.

-Most likely more ways developed to keep marines in combat longer. Scince cloning is no longer a sure thing that marines can rely on, the balance of power will likely swing back into making doctors more useful and on the field, as well as ways to prevent critical patients from death. This will likely lead to shorter turn arounds for marines coming back into the fight from being gravely wounded, but at the cost of death being permanent. Essentially, less waiting to be healed, more gunfire.

-Cloning possibly becoming more of a unique gameplay objective/feature. Cloning doesnt have to disappear completely, maybe having a cloning lab located in a W-Y building that can be turned back on would make cloning available again, but it would become a privilege to be cloned and no longer a right.

Any other thoughts?

[SecretStamos (Joshuu)]

I really think you hit all the best points. I agree wholeheartedly.

If we 'remove' cloning, it will not be removed entirely from the game, just from the reaches of the USCM. It's possible we could include it in an unreachable WY facility should a special case arise for its use. (Like what canonically happened to Ripley )

[crono23]

So whats everyone's thoughts on cloning removal?

Unnecessary.

What i see happening after clonings removal:
-Rounds going faster, as the ebb and flow of new marines becomes minimized by clones coming to the field. This means more games overall, and less chance for extremely long rounds to develop.

Except longer rounds stem from more problems than cloning. Rounds mostly tend to stagnate due to things like turtling, not because of a constant flow of fresh-faced marines rushing to the battlefield. Cloning is a lengthy process, and doesn't happen as often as you'd think, meaning the number of marines on the battlefield mostly remains fixed for a while, before taking a steady, continuous drop as attacks/defences happen.

-More players available to take over for xeno roles. This could help reduce the salt from a bad marine death as players recognize that xenos are the official "second" life of the game to use. This in turn helps establish a stronger playerbase and understanding for xeno roles.

This happening will do very little, if anything, to reduce salt. Bad deaths do happen, and for those that refuse to play xeno (like me), the option of playing xeno as a "second life" is (at the very least) a pretty bad second chance. I should also mention, that more people to play xeno isn't exactly a good thing. I'm sure we've all experienced a round where the xenos are pushed to extinction, only to be saved from a few people deciding to take over available larva. If more people are encouraged to play xeno upon death, this could just up extending rounds even further, or cause the marines to be steamrolled early on as all the unlucky stragglers die and increase the numbers of the hive.

-More emphasis on survival. Marines are more inclined to try and have their one life mean much more, probably sticking closer together, putting more emphasis at getting people out of situations instead of getting stuck into them.

Marines already try to be careful about their own life, but unfortunately accidents happen, people mess up, and as I mentioned earlier, bad deaths are a thing. Cloning is the one tiny sliver of hope, not a reason for marines to throw away their lives.

-Most likely more ways developed to keep marines in combat longer. Scince cloning is no longer a sure thing that marines can rely on, the balance of power will likely swing back into making doctors more useful and on the field, as well as ways to prevent critical patients from death. This will likely lead to shorter turn arounds for marines coming back into the fight from being gravely wounded, but at the cost of death being permanent. Essentially, less waiting to be healed, more gunfire.

Cloning doesn't have to go away for a better medical system to exist. Things like more Operating Theaters, better medical equipment, and easier ways of preventing/stopping death would go a longer way towards preventing death, than removing cloning would. In fact, keeping cloning might actually be better, as such an unreliable gamble should be saved for the very last, when even defib units are not enough.

Any other thoughts?

Cloning is a very iffy process. I'm gonna go out a limb here and say 80% of the marine corpses processed do not end up cloned, assuming the bodies are even recovered in the first place. As an added bonus, getting nested and decapitation are pretty much permadeath already. Nesting, due to you being so far from friendlies, and by the time marines actually do arrive, it's usually near the end of the game when marines are making good progress into the hive. And decapitation, since no doctor wants to waste time trying to sew a head back on (assuming both the head and body have been recovered) when they could be doing something more important like fixing somebody's lungs.

All up to the admins of course, but I definitely think removing cloning would be a bad decision, for the reasons I've already stated, and I'm not even going to bother going into detail about just how much salt this would kick up.

[Renomaki]

I'm honestly a bit nervous about its removal in the future still.

Xenos don't have to worry about death, since they can always use reserve larvas to get a second chance at life. But Marines? If they can't get your body back, you are gone forever.

Sure, this already DOES happen for the most part, with marine bodies being lost in the xenonests, never to be found again after bursting, and sometimes in more violent attacks, marines are forced to flee and leave the dead behind to rot. But when you are able to recover some of the fallen, it is nice to know that you get to recover some of your power... Provided they didn't already join the xenos or left the game..

... To be honest, sometimes it already feels like we don't have cloning, having to rely purely on new marines waking up to join the force and win the day.

The one scary thing about it going away, though... How will we make up for it? Will Defibs be buffed? Will armor be modified? Will medical treatment be more effective? Gotta give and take, you know?

[Karmac]

I find that marine armour isn't so bad, if anything I'd buff helmets, make it harder to facehug marines so that actually fighting the mariens is necessary, because in a straight up fight, marines are actually robust early to mid game

[TopHatPenguin]

What i see happening after clonings removal:
-Rounds going faster, as the ebb and flow of new marines becomes minimized by clones coming to the field. This means more games overall, and less chance for extremely long rounds to develop.

It'll probably stay the same as it is currently due to how clones really aren't the backbone of reinforcements at all, it's the latejoins. (Also with buffed defibs there will probably be alot of marines coming back after that, but in the Fob)

-More players available to take over for xeno roles. This could help reduce the salt from a bad marine death as players recognize that xenos are the official "second" life of the game to use. This in turn helps establish a stronger playerbase and understanding for xeno roles.

This won't happen, it's a very small minority currently that play aliens after being a marine who died and if they are salty about said death they'll probably stay in Dsay to spew it everywhere.


I think I'd enjoy cloning being removed if medical recieved a massive buff to get marines out of surgery and back onto the field faster, i.e a auto surgery machine (But an auto surgery machine will never happen as the suggestion was already denied for it)

(If we only got an autosurgery machine when there is no CMO and one doctor/no doctors that'd be fine.(Even allowing Mt's to build them would give them something to do))

[monkeysfist101]

It's already slated to be removed once we knock out a few prerequisite mechanics. But yeah, you hit on most of the reasons.One point to add is that marines won't be restricted from grabbing equipment from dead marines to restock without fear of a meta grudging clone.

[Toroic]

Xenos don't have to worry about death, since they can always use reserve larvas to get a second chance at life. But Marines? If they can't get your body back, you are gone forever.

This really isn't true for any xeno that goes T3, because you're unlikely to be able to come back in the same body.

[Biolock]

I really do hate cloning, for everything it does to the game. Often times I have players telling me to just let them die, rather than deal with all of the fractures and internal bleeding they have. Additionally, sometimes the thought will creep into my mind to let a very damaged player die because it will save resources and it'd be easier for him to just be cloned anyway. Bad player mentalities brought on by the lackadaisical topic of death.

[Karmac]

I really do hate cloning, for everything it does to the game. Often times I have players telling me to just let them die, rather than deal with all of the fractures and internal bleeding they have. Additionally, sometimes the thought will creep into my mind to let a very damaged player die because it will save resources and it'd be easier for him to just be cloned anyway. Bad player mentalities brought on by the lackadaisical topic of death.

Not gonna lie, it does break a lot of immershun, and I generally try and pretend I don't know that cloning exists, as I'm just a dumb marine most of the time. Hopefully medics will get less hate after cloning is removed, but I believe that it'll just be more marines trying to tell you how to do your job...

[Mech__Warrior]

Honestly, I don't want to see cloning removed unless there are some changes that make the marines a bit stronger than paper mache at the moment. Elite aliens that can insta-decap a marine and prevent them from being replaced? That's pretty cheap, especially if they double-huggered them to remove the helmet. That and the defibrillator only revives corpses that have been dead for perhaps thirty seconds, otherwise you can't. Like, I understand that's pretty realistic but with a heavily damaged body that you have to treat and hope like hell they live, I often just give up on saving them with the defib and put them in a body bag. I'd understand if it give the person who's revived severe brain damage after they've been dead for almost two minutes (Due to oxygen deprivation of the brain), but thirty seconds is just not enough time to save them.

That and griffers will have much more power and influence to ruin a round.

[Clarkeh]

Im neutral with the idea of removing cloning. Some of the points have already been raised which i agree with. Having the marine gameplay become a rogue-like simulator will effect how marines play, they will be more cautious less likely to get that extra inch to secure a kill on a xeno or even when the marines are overrun and the robust few are holding pack an entire horde of the ayys only to end up getting decapped just as reinforcements arrive it would become a huge stinger for the marine side which inevitably generates salt.


I would agree with this IF the researcher has the power to BUILD cloning pods in medbay as i have seen Suro do when its high pop and the bodies are three tiles deep and long out the door of research. This allows the CHANCE of a second wind for those players that were FF'd extremely hard by boots or baldies or just bad luck gameplay (getting decapped by aliens 8 minutes after getting off the Pod/Rasp anyone?)

[IAMMagikarp]

It quicker and less resource intensive just to die and be cloned rather than have surgery / meds

[Coldflame]

cloning should go, but marines should be made a little less squishy and there should be a drop in the amount of 'free' larvae

[hawkshot86]

I agree with these points you make, my only real concern is then FF. It becomes a lot worse when you get FF'd and suddenly that's permanent. I see a lot of anger and frustration in the community over that with a perma death.
Plus perma death is already a thing really, getting face hugged and pulled off to a hive is usually a death sentence. Then when you burst/die you get devoured. GG sit and watch/play xenos.
So I like cloning because the only times I've ever been cloned is in the case of FF when I'm near my team. Otherwise usually dead. Maybe some new system to replace cloning? Like some kind of resuscitation within x amount of time, that way if you get abducted/take forever to get revived you're out. But if you get FF'd by a boot you'll probably make it back into the game.

Plus I like the teamwork/love that it makes marines care about. Suddenly reclaiming your buddies dead body isn't all that important...

[Fritigern]

I think players and staff are unprepared for the massive shift the game is going to take once cloning is removed, and not for the better. I suspect it'll be a change that puts the server on a downward swing for a very long time.

[Clarkeh]

^ He does have a point. The casuals to the server will move on pretty quickly when they realise they can't be a mehreen again that round. I can just imagine the salt and abuse through the Ahelps now.

[Snypehunter007]

Question, from what I heard, the defibs were getting a buff when cloning goes away, right? But I don't think a defibrillator will help you if you have, bled out more than 50 % of your blood or have been decapped. So is there going to be anything done there? Because a lot of wounds are generally in this order, broken bones, internal bleeding, brain damage (more than normal for a marine), and missing limbs. Something along those lines. So, how is a defib fix that? Also wouldn't the xeno players just kinda start decapping everyone to prevent resuscitation by defib?

[Karmac]

This is a super obvious point Snype, I doubt the Devs wouldn't have figured this out whilst fleshing out the update. I personally expect great things to come from this, better RP for one, or Meta-Marines that will get picked off by Staff one by one. Plus people will actually appreciate Medics, and there will be a reason to actually be a good one, or to get mad at a bad one for picking such a key role. So yeah, it'll either improve RP and immershun, plus allow more marines to be brought back from death on the ground, ready to fight, or it'll make some people ruin RP and just get mad at Medics all the time. Depends on if you want to keep playing on this server or not really.

[masterspots]

I've been cloned 4 times in a round once.

The problem I see with removing cloning is it's far to easy for aliens to hug and behead marines in one or two slashes even if your near other marines sometimes they won't react fast enough or even hit you as well?
(I'd say making it so aliens can't slash the heads off huggered people would make more sense seeing as the hugger should really die from the aliens slashing the head and they don't really want to kill their own?)

Also friendly fire, One bullet wound to the lungs and you can die easily right now especially if the medics are new or few in numbers.

A dedicated doctor/medic role for the dropship would help as well to get with the pilot role.

[nerocavalier]

I dislike the pressure it will place on doctors and medics to be perfect. Medical is already a low reward, high stress job, seeing that you have to run around, trying to keep everyone alive and stable to be sent up/fixing their organs. While there may be some people that simply use cloning to get past having to do surgery, there are also others where even when given their best, someone dies. Either there simply isn't enough time to save everyone or you run out of supplies to do so. Cloning is a safety net for that, allowing for mistakes to happen without it being the end of the round for someone.

Then we run into the issue of FF, yes it's random, yes it happens. It stings now when Urist McShotgun instakills you with buckshot, and it'll likely sting then as well. AP rounds become that much more deadly to fellow marines. But these can be defibbed and treated if you have the supplies. However, what can't be defibbed is marines being decapped. Currently, should any hunter live long to Elite it'll ruin the day of any marine that crosses its path. But nero, you say, "You should have a buddy to watch your back if there's hunters" and I reply, "What good is your buddy in a morton's fork scenario?" Because, really there's so few options available to a marine if their buddy gets pounced on. They can shoot it yes, but then they run into the scenario of the hunter running away and accidentally shooting their buddy if they're not careful. Even then, AP rounds are the only thing that would make a hunter back down instead of staying to decap your buddy which makes hitting your friend oh so deadlier. The cold, pragmatic option is SADAR/Nade them in hopes of killing the hunter, results varies there. Or finally, god forbid, that they wait and hope the hunter backs away. It likely won't.

But that's brute damage, that's more easily treated than burns. My experience so far is that I can easily defib a marine if they die from it but can't do anything but watch the skull icon appear if they died from a boiler or spitter. Kelotane/adv. burn kits work too slow on them for me to have any chance of reducing to less than 200 for it to work reliably.

Doctors already get a lot of salt if someone dies to them with cloning. Now imagine it without cloning. Here, there's very little encouragement to learn medical since new people often have to deal with upset patients and fellow doctors. There's already a divide for it, seeing that people often prefer doctors or medics they count on and tend to ignore the ones they don't know. A bit discouraging to spend your time healing someone, only to have them thank a medic they know even if all they did analyze the wounds.

[Renomaki]

I hope that when cloning is removed, more slots for doctors and extra OR rooms will be added to help make up for it.. Among other things.

I already been through many rounds were I was dead for more than an hour or more, with no way to get back in (xeno or otherwise), so I'm kinda already used to the idea of not getting cloned again. In fact, a lot of marines aren't lucky enough to get cloned, their bodies either lost forever, or turned into food for the xenos. It is a really common thing that happens, and very often it is easier for new marines to bolster the army than it is cloning up a dozen marines with only two cloning machines.. Really, it is a very slow, time consuming process.

With it gone, I doubt we'll lose too much, and maybe gain something that'll be much better in its place... Right?

[Simo94]

I think instead of completly removed, cloning should be restricted to high ranking officers only like SL BO XO CO RO and maaaaaybe Spec too?

[InterroLouis]

If you have a good researcher team you shouldn't have just two cloners. Hell, one time I went researcher and was able to set up an upgraded cloner in medbay before the marines even deployed. Then I made peridaxon and injected myself with 30 units of ethanol, tried to use a chemsprayer full of anesthetic on Russians, got shot up, and was the last person alive at the end of the round resulting in an alien minor due to me being crit in the medbay freezer room behind a welded shut or2.

[Jroinc1]

If you have a good researcher team you shouldn't have just two cloners. Hell, one time I went researcher and was able to set up an upgraded cloner in medbay before the marines even deployed. Then I made peridaxon and injected myself with 30 units of ethanol, tried to use a chemsprayer full of anesthetic on Russians, got shot up, and was the last person alive at the end of the round resulting in an alien minor due to me being crit in the medbay freezer room behind a welded shut or2.

This. I usually go for a MINIMUM of 2 extra medbay cloners if I'm researcher. Hell, with decent research prep, a spare O2 canister (Which you pre-cool using the medbay cooler) and connector port from engineering, and a cryomx beaker, you can totally set up a cloner AND cryo array planetside in like 10 min.