The Hive Across the River, AKA, 'Zerg Rush!!!'

[Annie]

I just had a round where the marines, upon deployment, immediately made their way to Medical and set up defenses inside of it as well as on the other side of the river. The marine count was somewhat low, but hit around the thirties with the xenos having an Elite Queen, a young Hivelord, two crushers(one young, one mature), a young ravager, and the rest of the castes being young T1s. During this round, I was playing a Hivelord, and alongside of the Queen, we barely had time to set up a proper chamber to house the eggs and make proper walls and door structures(most of which were just large, 6x6~ rooms) as well as a few resin+door nest combos before bullets started spraying across the river. We had set up a couple criss-crossing checkerboard like pattern of walls in order to soak shots, but with the marines being fresh and not at all obstructed by the hunters and runners who were upgrading in the hive, we really stood no chance as they shoved their way into our hive at approximately 25 minutes into the round.

Now, I am, by no means, complaining about the Marines setting up their FoB at medical. In fact, I think this is a great idea and while the Nexus is much more easily defensible, makes a lot of sense in both lore and how the marines would actually think. The Nexus is a pretty good defensive position, but if you really try, so is Medical and it even has supplies you can use for medics. This is a great combination all around.

What I AM complaining about is that even though the round lasted for quite a while longer, around 50 minutes as I'm writing this, it completely crippled the Aliens at the start and in the case that the aliens got a slower start, could have actually lead to the marines winning entirely in about thirty minutes. I know this may not be quite a big deal, but we have to remember that the Xenos are also players who would like to get some enjoyment out of the round too. When, five minutes after the Marines have landed on the ground, they have established a complete FoB outside of our hive and are currently killing a good majority of the aliens, it is not very hard to see just how it could potentially ruin any players round, both on Marine-side and Xeno-side.

Granted, there were no admins online at the time it happened, and even though Moderators logged on afterwards, what can you really do about it? There was a MOTHER announcement to fall back, but by this time, it should have been actual knowledge, because of the Meta-rush, that the Xenos hive was north of the river. It should also be noted that, no, they did not fall back across the river.

I know that, right now, Xenos win rounds pretty consistently. Even in this scenario, it appears as if they are still at an advantage, but it is not fun for either group when it is not roleplayed correctly and either side charges the other hoping to get a few potshots and severely cripple their forces. People have argued that there was a runner that lured them over the river, or that since they had their FoB at Medical they saw marines being dragged across the river or xenos on the other side, but this is still an iffy answer as a single rogue runner who is not following the Queen could easily put an entire queen-abiding hive at risk and potentially lose the round single handedly should this scenario happen again.

Again, I'm pretty sure Aliens are going to win this round. It's just a matter of balancing, how good the marines are, where they attacked from, etc etc. Maybe it's not even a big deal and the marines are actually at a disadvantage when they attack the hive early, but it makes no sense when they have no idea what the mission is and no idea what the Xenomorphs are. My argument against this is simply that if Aliens aren't allowed to camp the LZs, Marines shouldn't be allowed to head straight towards the Caves.

It's not exactly easy to dictate when the Marines SHOULD be allowed to enter the river, and honestly, having a set time limit would kill roleplay since if at thirty minutes the xenos are OBVIOUSLY pulling all their prey over the river, you would know that. When marines immediately head to the caves, that's when I have a problem, though I have no solutions.

Perhaps what I'm saying is that I wish there were more places to actually properly build a Xeno hive. The caves are, quite literally, the only good place to do it. With tackling being only a few seconds stun and dragging making you move a tile per two seconds, the nests and hive also have to be built pretty close to the front, as well. The other options for your hive are..

Robotics isn't bad, but it's not easily defensible and not big enough. Fitness and the Science area are alright, but again, Xenos are extremely close combat and a few grenades will EASILY wipe out most of the hive. Even adding hydro into it, it makes it much better overall but is still too small to be easily defensible, even with a hivelord, because of the fact you can't put vines over the 'jungle' terrain. The Nexus or the Storage areas? Could easily be said that they're camping the LZ since they're so close, and that would just make this problem worse. Engineering has the same issue.

I don't know. I wrote way more than I intended too but it's just kind of boring when I can barely play before all hell breaks loose because thirty marines decided to assault eight xenos when they've been on the ground for five minutes. I partially blame the fact there were no admins, but I also blame the fact that the only GOOD place to set up a Hive is the northern caves.

Just ranting, I guess, but you can feel free to leave your thoughts as well. Maybe it's not as bad as I'm making it out to be and I just had a bad round?

Again, sorry for the length of this post.

[RadiantFlash]

I have to ask you the counter argument. When has it become standard for aliens to build along the river? Aliens used to build into the caves, because the marines KNOW they can't go there so early, and not to mention, the marines can't chase what they can't see. However, recently, the aliens have been consistently building along the river, in plain view of anyone with a binocular, a sniper, or even just walking along the river on occation. I have to ask, what are they supposed to do, just sit around and watch?

I was playing alien this round you mentioned, and while I think it was fairly bullshit for them to cross the river, we were practically baiting them, by walking within viewing distance of their FOB.

[Annie]

I have to ask you the counter argument. When has it become standard for aliens to build along the river? Aliens used to build into the caves, because the marines KNOW they can't go there so early, and not to mention, the marines can't chase what they can't see. However, recently, the aliens have been consistently building along the river, in plain view of anyone with a binocular, a sniper, or even just walking along the river on occation. I have to ask, what are they supposed to do, just sit around and watch?

I was playing alien this round you mentioned, and while I think it was fairly bullshit for them to cross the river, we were practically baiting them, by walking within viewing distance of their FOB.

While this is fair, I would also argue that making the hive ANYWHERE ELSE is a terrible idea, as I mentioned near the bottom. While I'm aware that a sniper or someone with any distance could see us moving around, the same would lie true to anywhere else they could set up a Hive. There's simply nowhere to put it that will be as fortifiable and defensible as the caves- And yes, we were built very deep into the caves. I had made several tunnels to move to the far west and north and we were still easily overrun.

[RadiantFlash]

The front of the hive was along the river bed though. if it was back in the caves for it's entrance, like the old hives used to be, I suspect this may not have occurred at all.

[Annie]

The front of the hive was along the river bed though. if it was back in the caves for it's entrance, like the old hives used to be, I suspect this may not have occurred at all.

I'll yield that perhaps we were too close to the rivers edge, given where our hive was located, but I do not think it would have changed the outcome either way. We, as Xenos, have to come out that way eventually, anyway. It was merely a matter of time.

That being said, while I appreciate the responses and do like looking at another perspective on things, I'd also like to not fill this thread out entirely with just comments from you and I bickering over semantics. This is more of a post about how metaing is so easy simply because the Xenos have only one real place to build their hive, as well as a million different things actually letting the marines 'know' where the Xenos are. A single runner going across the river should not indicate that the entirety of the hive is there.

[Toroic]

Xenos really need to stop building along the river.

It's a terrible strat and encourages a metarush.

[Renomaki]

Xenos really need to stop building along the river.

It's a terrible strat and encourages a metarush.

I was queen earlier today, and I gave orders to NOT weed the area outside the caves, let alone build outside... And yet they do it anyways.

It has become a terrible habit that causes a lot of confusion among marines who think they are in the right, but aren't. It doesn't help that xenos metarush themselves, what with hunters and runners insta-aggroing the moment they see a marine, causing all the marines to get hostile towards them, as well as how xenos tend to bait the marines into metarushing the hive.

There has to be some metarush rules for xenos as well to make this nonsense stop, I am tired of xenos weeding the entirety of the wastelands and building useless forts that block boiler artillery rather than working on reinforcing the cave networks that the map maker built just for them.. So often the caves are hardly built in because of xenos just rushing out, even going so far as to weed the SOUTH... THE SOUTH..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtjFsQBuJWw

[TopHatPenguin]

It really depends on quite a few things for instance:

Where the commander decides to designate an Fob, some choose medical and science others choose the nexus and Tcomms.

If the aliens decide to build at the river which basically gives the marines an Ic reason to go "hurr duur I spy some strange goo shit, hurr durr lets check it squad"
Also goes the same after first contact, expect that if a marine chases you down to the hive they are reporting the damn location in and within minutes squads will be up and down that whole area because you just tried to kill one of their own or tried to take them away.

If briefing is over quickly or slowly, this is probably the major factor imo as with low pop you deploy faster i.e a rush is more likely, where as high pop generally you leave briefing later albeit that depends on the commanders speech etc.Either way having something to fix this would probably improve quite alot of rounds.

Another big issue is just waiting around which can lead to meta rushes out of boredom, for instance after scouting the whole area and finding nothing but weeds and dead bodies, reporting it in, having the odd light contact then being told to go sit in the Fob until further notice isn't exactly great but there is nothing you can do, even if you hear screams over the radio of a marine who's been dragged over the river you can't crusade over for them until the alotted 'time' is up so you sit there and just wait for orders to come in for another scout mission or to gather supplies.These all depend on the command staff, the marines on at the time and the squad leads deciding to filter the orders through or just create their own.(I don't personally mind waiting as it's just how things go but it might be nice to change it up abit)

These are just some passing points before I head to sleep.

[Annie]

-cut-

My only problem is that, as I've said, there is really no area other than the caves that are very good to fortify as a hive. Granted you don't have to go out near the river, but all xenos will have to cross it EVENTUALLY to hunt.

These are some very valid points, however. I feel like just having a few spots like the caves, maybe smaller, where they could fortify as opposed to just the northern beach would help, but I don't know how plausible this would be as I've never mapped in BYOND before. It'd be very nice to actually have marines have to explore to find the xenos, but again, maybe this just isn't plausible and this thread WAS created while I was a bit salty. Probably not a huge deal, but I imagine it could end rounds extremely prematurely if one side got a little overwhelmed.

[TopHatPenguin]

My only problem is that, as I've said, there is really no area other than the caves that are very good to fortify as a hive. Granted you don't have to go out near the river, but all xenos will have to cross it EVENTUALLY to hunt.

These are some very valid points, however. I feel like just having a few spots like the caves, maybe smaller, where they could fortify as opposed to just the northern beach would help, but I don't know how plausible this would be as I've never mapped in BYOND before. It'd be very nice to actually have marines have to explore to find the xenos, but again, maybe this just isn't plausible and this thread WAS created while I was a bit salty. Probably not a huge deal, but I imagine it could end rounds extremely prematurely if one side got a little overwhelmed.

One of the great things that could probably stop meta rushes all together is if the marines oocly don't know where they are, considering how currently the 'caves' on LV624 is just one big massive 'xeno pre-set base' which if you decide not to use you get crushed. I can agree with you whole heartedly that having pre-set areas (such as the caves) for a hive to be made in sucks, what we really need is variety on the maps, which we currently don't get (going for a nostalgia trip hold on) like on nostromos, aka boxstation for instance each round generally the aliens decided where they wanted their hive to be for instance, chapel, xeno bio, security, Ai upload (the point being that they could choose anyway and do pretty well.)etc and marine could do the same with their Fob. The point is that atleast on nostromos there was variety with each round instead of what we have now currently on all our maps where the aliens are given a set location so after playing one round oocly you know exactly where they'll be for all the rest, Lv624 is slightly different with this due to how the caves are rather large but they still have the same result as the others because of how that area is given to the aliens.

[Youbar]

However, recently, the aliens have been consistently building along the river, in plain view of anyone with a binocular, a sniper, or even just walking along the river on occation. I have to ask, what are they supposed to do, just sit around and watch?

I was playing alien this round you mentioned, and while I think it was fairly bullshit for them to cross the river, we were practically baiting them, by walking within viewing distance of their FOB.

This particularly irritates me. I was the commander that round, and I honestly felt rather angry when I was told that I had conducted a meta-rush when I responded to aliens dragging marines across the river, and they concentrating heir signatures in the "North-West Caves" according to the squad monitor. In truth, I was simply responding to a very real threat that was harassing where I set up a forward operating base, and following a very visible pattern.

Salt aside, it comes down to a lack of flexibility for the aliens. The caves are the only location they can hold, because surprisingly, closed spaces benefit them compared to the manevuer warfare that marines should be conducting. It's an inherent map flaw, but unfortunately, I don't think it'll be resolved any time soon.

[Renomaki]

This particularly irritates me. I was the commander that round, and I honestly felt rather angry when I was told that I had conducted a meta-rush when I responded to aliens dragging marines across the river, and they concentrating heir signatures in the "North-West Caves" according to the squad monitor. In truth, I was simply responding to a very real threat that was harassing where I set up a forward operating base, and following a very visible pattern.

Salt aside, it comes down to a lack of flexibility for the aliens. The caves are the only location they can hold, because surprisingly, closed spaces benefit them compared to the maneuver warfare that marines should be conducting. It's an inherent map flaw, but unfortunately, I don't think it'll be resolved any time soon.

When I go commander myself, I always struggle to convince the marines to hold back when it comes to avoid metarushes, making up whatever excuses I can to keep them from pushing too early.. But when xenos keep baiting marines the way they do, it gets hard to give a justified reason as to why the marines can't cross over to save their captured friend as they watched him get dragged over the river.

I'm told that you have to wait at least an hour before crossing the river, but until then, it is tricky to find things to give marines to keep them from complaining.. And harder as a xeno queen trying to convince xenos to NOT build on the edge of the river and cause metarushes to happen in the first place, since they are just as impatient as marines.

[Annie]

-snip-.

I feel a big portion of xenos 'baiting' are literally just xenos doing what xenos are supposed to do. I've seen the admins get upset at them for not trying to infect and just 'turtling', but honestly, if you so much as run two squares to the north as you're being shot at it's immediately seen as 'baiting' and the metarushes continue to be just that, though now they have a valid excuse to move from the Nexus all the way to the caves because two or so xenos ran 'to the north'.

The problem with this, on both aspects, however, is that it's also valid. If many xenos are going north, anyone who's been planetside for at least three minutes can probably infer that, guess what? The Xenos are north. If an SL is taken and he's still got his camera somehow, anyone with eyes who is watching the camera can watch EXACTLY where to go and if that's at fifteen minutes, well, it's not a metarush but it's still anti fun for the aliens AND the marines who are forced to rush to end everything so quickly.

The only solution I can think to this is to randomize spawns and give more places that would make it so that you could set up a proper hive, but that would require some pretty large mapwork and by the time it was done, you may as well just use a different map. As long as the caves remain the best place for xenos to be, there will always be the issue that xenos are 'baiting' because they're escaping across the river, and xenos will ALWAYS have to cross the river EVENTUALLY in order to do what xenos do.

Shrug.

[saronsen]

The river is the WORST thing ever.

Stop using the river as a base and run into my hive full of 1 tile halls full of sticky resin, no doors, and lots of hiding places to ambush from

[Renomaki]

I feel a big portion of xenos 'baiting' are literally just xenos doing what xenos are supposed to do. I've seen the admins get upset at them for not trying to infect and just 'turtling', but honestly, if you so much as run two squares to the north as you're being shot at it's immediately seen as 'baiting' and the metarushes continue to be just that, though now they have a valid excuse to move from the Nexus all the way to the caves because two or so xenos ran 'to the north'.

The problem with this, on both aspects, however, is that it's also valid. If many xenos are going north, anyone who's been planetside for at least three minutes can probably infer that, guess what? The Xenos are north. If an SL is taken and he's still got his camera somehow, anyone with eyes who is watching the camera can watch EXACTLY where to go and if that's at fifteen minutes, well, it's not a metarush but it's still anti fun for the aliens AND the marines who are forced to rush to end everything so quickly.

The only solution I can think to this is to randomize spawns and give more places that would make it so that you could set up a proper hive, but that would require some pretty large mapwork and by the time it was done, you may as well just use a different map. As long as the caves remain the best place for xenos to be, there will always be the issue that xenos are 'baiting' because they're escaping across the river, and xenos will ALWAYS have to cross the river EVENTUALLY in order to do what xenos do.

Shrug.

When I talk about baiting, I don't mean things like rushing back north. I'm more talking about the blatant things such as:

1: Having boilers on the edge of the river, coxing marines to cross over to kill it. Boilers glow in the dark, keep in mind, so they can't hide like other xenos can.

2: Building huge walls/a fortress along the river's edge, because screw building in the caves, drones wanna place Xenofort Architect and they want lots of empty space to build in. Meanwhile, any marine with a brain will notice the massive wall and struggle to resist the temptation of finding out what the hell it is.

3: Xenos forgoing stealth to blatantly attack FROM the river. A smart xeno would attempt to avoid leading threats to the hive, and to do this, they stick to the shadows and cross in darkness, using the darkness as much as possible to get around. However, some xenos just don't give a shit and will just rush out from across the river, which leads to marines pushing them back and cross the river themselves, leading to people screaming METARUSH.

4: Arguably, weeding the entirety of the wastelands outside the cave and places across the river could also been an issue causing early rushes. When marines see weeds at places like LZ1, they tend to get rather concerned, and when they go near the river and see a FUCKTON of weeds covering the entire other side, they might think it is justification to attack, since they think they have proof of some kind of infestation (when it is just a bunch of weeds). I don't know why this is a thing, and when I told my xenos NOT to weed the wasteland as a queen, they complain and then do it anyways. In fact, is the cause of a lot of these former problems, promoting a lot of bad habits when xenos should be focusing on fortifying the cave networks and being more subtle instead of "XENO IN YO FACE BITCH!"

While I'm no expert on xeno lore, I imagine that xenos are supposed to be experts at stealth and stalking, observing their target for awhile before attempting to capture them, not carelessly rushing in and throwing their lives away like some kind of WWII Japanese Solider.