Rule rewrite draft - Need community input

[Rahlzel]

Fixed, thanks. Any others?

[Jroinc1]

Fixed, thanks. Any others?

We don't have hardsuit helmets anymore unless it's gonna be a special MT treat? plz?

[Neray]

I hope we'll get rid of ID changing rule at some point (it doesn't really break anything from mechanical perspective, even though rules are still claiming so). As for now, if would be great if partial access increase was allowed (at least with direct order from acting commander, to prevent muh-full-access BOs appearing all the time (although we can easily call it a powergame or even (!) get it down to in-game marine law issue). There're plenty of situations where small ID adjustments can be needed, even more of em at round ends.

Speaking of which, could you please clear out this example: CO is dead and can't be cloned, XO took over, but now there's a strong need to promote one of BOs to XO rank, since XO with full access can't be everywhere and it's against the rules to increase BO's access by reworking their IDs / same, but with XO being dead this time / promoting MT to long-gone CE rank (in short - promoting shipside crew subranks to higher rank in place of their dead superiors).

[Rahlzel]

We don't have hardsuit helmets anymore unless it's gonna be a special MT treat? plz?

Fixed.

I hope we'll get rid of ID changing rule at some point

I'm not completely up-to-speed on what's broken and what's working with ID reassignments. Do you know for sure if everything works with assigning crew and marines?

[TopHatPenguin]

Mp's being able to be shuttle guards, considering they were able to pilot the shuttles before it would make sense if the PO could ask them to be a co-pilot/guard of sorts?

[Rahlzel]

Mp's being able to be shuttle guards, considering they were able to pilot the shuttles before it would make sense if the PO could ask them to be a co-pilot/guard of sorts?

Makes sense. Added.

[Neray]

I'm not completely up-to-speed on what's broken and what's working with ID reassignments. Do you know for sure if everything works with assigning crew and marines?

Might want to double-check it with Forward, but so far our current join system works just as any other from any other SS13 build. If someone takes a role, things you do to his ID card won't change anything for other players. Name, rank, access - you name it. I tested it out few times, both privately and online, with all shipside and squad jobs - it doesn't even break order in which squad roles like engineers and medics wake up. From mechanical perspective you can easily turn delta medic to delta spec and later on that delta spec will still wake up like nothing happened (and another medic won't appear). Not sure where this strange rule even came from, actually. Maybe something from transitional period from pre-alpha to alpha.

[Casany]

The ID rule probably comes from the old pre alpha sulaco where we all started as a marine then went to logistics and got our jobs assigned. Would make sense

[TopHatPenguin]

Fairly certain it's from the Alpha code as Pre-Alpha Id's were never broken in anyway,.

[Neray]

Fairly certain it's from the Alpha code as Pre-Alpha Id's were never broken in anyway,.

"Transitional period". Most likely someone was testing something when those "new" rules were being made.

[Rahlzel]

It's possible it might not be broken and it simply stayed because Apop thinks that a Standard Marine getting reassigned as something like a CMO wouldn't make much sense.

From a realism/immersion standpoint, he's right. But finding the line between realism and fun is a tough one in all game design.

I'm open to suggestions. Would you just erase that rule and let anyone become any job, or would you reword the ID rule somehow to accommodate the situations that have been posted?

[jaggaaff]

I would rather reword the ID rule somehow just to make it reasonable. For example: A researcher asking for MT access so he has access to tool vendors and etc. for his RnD shennanigans

[Neray]

It's possible it might not be broken and it simply stayed because Apop thinks that a Standard Marine getting reassigned as something like a CMO wouldn't make much sense.

From a realism/immersion standpoint, he's right. But finding the line between realism and fun is a tough one in all game design.

I'm open to suggestions. Would you just erase that rule and let anyone become any job, or would you reword the ID rule somehow to accommodate the situations that have been posted?

Oh, no-no-no. I wasn't talking about that ("mechanical perspective", remember?). As for now, that rule states that if you'll reassign ANYONE to ANYONE else (or change their IDs a tiny bit) - it'll break the whole round (it won't) and thus cases like that are being judged harsh by admins, even if change in question was reasonable - MT >>> CE or BO getting himself access to cargo because marines are about to c-4 it.

If possible, I'd like you to remove this whole rule and move some of its parts to metagame section. For example, if you'll promote standard to MT, you're just giving him additional access, but not a single bit of engineering knowledge (which basically makes this promotion useless - you can just give him additional access to engineering if there's such a need). Another option is to reword it, allowing ID access changes (as I posted yesterday, it might be a good idea to judge muh-full-access-BOs by marine law, and not by OOC means, since sometimes change can be ordered by CO/XO himself and BO who does it without a permission or a good reason can be sentenced in-game) and promotions within the same job class (medic > doctor > CMO; squad engi > MT > CE; any NCO > BO > XO > CO; anyone > CT > RO; CE / XO > CO etc) with exceptions for specs, since right now using their weapons is considered a metagame. At later point, when spec weapons will be available with drawbacks another line of promotions can be added - standard / any other squad member > spec > SL (for now it'll just look like standard / any other squad member > SL). Will make life for admins easier, since there won't be a huge pile of baldies running around claiming they "were engineers from the start duh-duh".

I'm not sure how to put this all shortly (looks a bit over complicated, hah?), but I hope you'll get my idea. This rule was one of those immersion ruining things (and a lie as well) for a long time and if we'll do something to rework it many boots will become happier.

We wanted to throw out as many rules as possible to allow players to play the game how they want with as little staff intervention as possible.

[forwardslashN]

I don't know why ranks can't be reassigned mechanically, or what it breaks, if anything, but I don't think it's that big of a deal regardless.

[Rahlzel]

I've tweaked the ID Rules section, so I'd like some input on that.

[Neray]

A question about this part:

A Standard Marine doesn't have the IC knowledge of becoming a Specialist, but a Squad Leader does and can ask for a demotion to become one.

It means we can finally use spec weapons as SLs, right? it's logical after all If so, there's a clear discrepancy with metagame section:

Using Specialist weapons (sniper rifle, SADAR, etc - any weapon that is uniquely available in the Specialist vendors) if you are not a CO, XO, or a Specialist

Other than that - works just fine, thank you very much for adjusting it.

[Rahlzel]

It's assumed that a Squad Leader would know some or most of his underling's job skills, so I'd say yes, an SL can use Spec weapons.

[Biolock]

Never met a SL who's less skilled with a weapon than any of his privates/ NCOs.

[Eenkogneeto]

"Bringing additional power-packs to the FOB prior to first contact."
I would like to see this specific example struck out, I think it's perfectly sane to bring them down, and if they are In the FOB it's not like you'll lose them.
Often I bring two packs down, toss them in the FOB and make the long treck back for them if I run out. I don't see why I would resign myself to returning to sulaco once hostiles are confirmed just for powerpacks. Nobody says anything if Sadar specs drop with extra rockets, or would say anything if anyone ever used grenadelaunchers and asked for grenades.

Something I would like to see is a section detailing what Looc can and can't be used for, Some people don't know if they are allowed to say 'hey I'm in my body' or 'hey, you can take my ammo belt without worrying about being adminhelped' or so on.

Marines that don't follow their Squad Leader's orders can be handled by Marine Law (Neglect of Duty, etc) and may also be given a warning/account note by a staff member. Marines that continue this behavior may be job-banned.
Suggest rewording this to be 'Superiors orders' as SL shouldn't go against CO/XOs orders without at least some reason.

[apophis775]

Here's the thing with IDs:

If you join as a marine, and get transferred to Spec, there are now 5 Specs, but only 4 coins. Who gets left out? The new guy who transferred just for the specialist stuff, or the specialist who joined as a specialist? This applies to most jobs, not to mention the havok with the autoassigner, which tries to make sure there's an equal number of standards across the squads.

Also, if your a generic Private as a marine, why would you be qualified to become a medic or doctor? You wouldn't, if you were qualified, that's what you'd be there as.

Not to mention slots. Say your a specialist for Alpha and want to be a doctor. Well, the specialist slot for alpha is "full", and if doctors are full, you're overloading a full profession.

Unfortunatly, for CM, IDs need to be locked. It just has too much space to affect gameplay if people can willy nilly change jobs. Not to mention RP implications.

My solution, would probably be to remove the ID console totally and just give a bunch of "DEMOTED" IDs out with shit access for the XO to give to people who have been demoted. Maybe a few "CIVILIAN" ones as well.

[Neray]

Here's the thing with IDs:

If you join as a marine, and get transferred to Spec, there are now 5 Specs, but only 4 coins. Who gets left out? The new guy who transferred just for the specialist stuff, or the specialist who joined as a specialist? This applies to most jobs, not to mention the havok with the autoassigner, which tries to make sure there's an equal number of standards across the squads.

Also, if your a generic Private as a marine, why would you be qualified to become a medic or doctor? You wouldn't, if you were qualified, that's what you'd be there as.

Not to mention slots. Say your a specialist for Alpha and want to be a doctor. Well, the specialist slot for alpha is "full", and if doctors are full, you're overloading a full profession.

Unfortunatly, for CM, IDs need to be locked. It just has too much space to affect gameplay if people can willy nilly change jobs. Not to mention RP implications.

My solution, would probably be to remove the ID console totally and just give a bunch of "DEMOTED" IDs out with shit access for the XO to give to people who have been demoted. Maybe a few "CIVILIAN" ones as well.

1) 99.9999% of the time specs are being taken at round start, which makes it a very shady example, also, look at point 3.
2) It won't cause havok with autoassigner. Even if you'll transfer all starting marines to one squad, nothing will be broken. On a high pop squad lockers can be emptied at the round start without ANY squad transfers, so it's not a big deal either.
3) Rah's variant isn't allowing it.
4) Once again, no one is making a doctor out of spec with THIS variant of rules.
5) You can't overload a profession, since ID changes doesn't do anything to actual join system, see Forward's post. And there's plenty of equipment for additional personnel, plus, it's in-game issue (like, for example, you can call everyone in your squad a machine-gunner, but you won't get more machine guns because of that).
6) It doesn't need to, really, just please, read all upper posts and check how Rah put it in rules.
7) Apop, you missed all points that were posted up there. Like, all of them entirely. I don't want to double post same things, so, once again GO ON AND READ THEM THANK YOU.

Reassignments should make sense in that they are done within a department or similar departments.
Examples:
A Standard Marine shouldn't be promoted to Chief Medical Officer, but a Medic or Doctor can be.
A Researcher can assist Engineering with Maintenance Tech access, but doesn't likely have the IC knowledge of being a Chief Engineer.
A Standard Marine doesn't have the IC knowledge of becoming a Specialist, but a Squad Leader does and can ask for a demotion to become one.

We're mostly talking about quality-of-life things like promoting someone else to replace dead crew, add access if there's a good reason for it and move folks from department to department if there's such a need. If you'll remove ID console it'll fuck things up so badly that even 1 bald guy would be able to ruin round for everyone by ditching his ID (or just dying somewhere). Thus causing even MORE admin intervension.

After all, people in command are officers and it's up to them in-game wise to decide where they need soldier's skills right now.

[Rahlzel]

"Bringing additional power-packs to the FOB prior to first contact."
I would like to see this specific example struck out, I think it's perfectly sane to bring them down, and if they are In the FOB it's not like you'll lose them.
Often I bring two packs down, toss them in the FOB and make the long treck back for them if I run out. I don't see why I would resign myself to returning to sulaco once hostiles are confirmed just for powerpacks. Nobody says anything if Sadar specs drop with extra rockets, or would say anything if anyone ever used grenadelaunchers and asked for grenades.

Something I would like to see is a section detailing what Looc can and can't be used for, Some people don't know if they are allowed to say 'hey I'm in my body' or 'hey, you can take my ammo belt without worrying about being adminhelped' or so on.

Marines that don't follow their Squad Leader's orders can be handled by Marine Law (Neglect of Duty, etc) and may also be given a warning/account note by a staff member. Marines that continue this behavior may be job-banned.
Suggest rewording this to be 'Superiors orders' as SL shouldn't go against CO/XOs orders without at least some reason.

I've made a few adjustments based on this. For LOOC, both of your examples involve dead players using LOOC, and I can't think of a good reason why dead people need to be able to use LOOC. I'm looking into disabling it for dead people only.

In short, I'd like some input on the top section of Job-specific Rules and we're still debating the ID Rules.

EDIT: Oops, I forgot to submit my changes until just now.

[Scrat505]

With regards to the CL.

The CL can't order anyone around, fine. But can anyone order the CL around? If a Squad Marine gives you an order, must you follow it? How about an SL? BO? XO? CO?

My suggestion would be that CLs do not need to follow the orders of anyone on the Sulaco, but at the same time are accountable to Marine Law. They're not military, after all, or associated with the USCM in any way besides being a bit of an ambassador for WY. On the flipside, it could be argued "My ship, my rules"...

[Neray]

In short, I'd like some input on the top section of Job-specific Rules and we're still debating the ID Rules.

Players that don't follow orders from a superior can be handled by Marine Law (Neglect of Duty, etc) and may also be given a warning/account note by a staff member. Players that continue this behavior may be job-banned.

It sounds a bit harsh, since it gives admins a huge room for maneuver. For example, bald CO can order a retreat when there's clearly no reason for it and bald SL might order to follow this order (same, but for SL ignoring CO's retarded order), while, for example, spec will disagree and tell the rest of the squad to hold their positions. SL reports his spec, spec gets a warning/jobban, even though it was an in-game issue, but admin was too lazy to dig in it. From irl perspective it happens all the time in crisis situations - some orders are being ignored and some actions are being taken without em.

I doubt we need this rule in a first place, since it's 100% in-game marine law problem.

[TopHatPenguin]

I'm inclined to agree with Neray on this point as insubordination is already something that should be dealt with solely by ic means and not through ooc means with a staff member breathing down your neck and threatening to ban you if you disregard an order again.