Rule rewrite draft - Need community input

[Rahlzel]

On the other hand, an experienced CM player as a CO or SL has a few baldies in his squad that don't pay attention. Wouldn't they be more inclined to if Admins intervene?

EDIT: I do like the idea of less admin intervention, so I'm trying to find a compromise, but I'm fine with removing that part completely.

[TopHatPenguin]

On the other hand, an experienced CM player as a CO or SL has a few baldies in his squad that don't pay attention. Wouldn't they be more inclined to if Admins intervene?

EDIT: I do like the idea of less admin intervention, so I'm trying to find a compromise, but I'm fine with removing that part completely.

You're probably right in thinking they'd be more inclined if they get an admin pm saying "Why are you doing x,y and z" but I think one of the main problems is currently that Mps have the power to deal with insubordination on the ship but as soon as marines hit the ground it's extremely rare to see someone arrested on the frontlines due to how they are at the end of the day helping team marine.

[Rahlzel]

Fair enough. I've removed that part of the rule. I do prefer that Admins stay out of IC issues anyway.

Anything else? I'll poke Apophis about Neray's reply.

[apophis775]

It can overload a profession.

Say there are 3 doctors. You make someone another doctor with the ID change. Now there are 4 doctors. Profession overloaded, with another profession having 1 short, but the same number of slots are taken.

I'm 100% against ANY reassigning of ranks, because it's unrealistic. Even if a unit commander dies and the XO moves up, he's not the "commander" he's the XO and he's in command. In reality, a new commander would be dispatched and take the position.

[TopHatPenguin]

In reality, a new commander would be dispatched and take the position.

Is it possible we could have a system for perhaps all jobs or maybe just the high up ones that a commander/whoever gets dispatched to the Sulaco to fill the roll then?

[Neray]

It can overload a profession.

Say there are 3 doctors. You make someone another doctor with the ID change. Now there are 4 doctors. Profession overloaded, with another profession having 1 short, but the same number of slots are taken.

I'm 100% against ANY reassigning of ranks, because it's unrealistic. Even if a unit commander dies and the XO moves up, he's not the "commander" he's the XO and he's in command. In reality, a new commander would be dispatched and take the position.

Once again, you're missing my point. If bridge staff decided to reassign somebody there's most likely a good reason for that, being it death of former crew, lack of said former crew or simply need to overload a profession to boost effectiveness. As for squad ranks, take this example: original spec of alpha squad died in battle, his body was lost but Urist McMarine managed to save spec's weapon. Let's say it's a sniper rifle. Now we've got a SL that can use it, but he can't snipe effectively while leading his men on a frontline at the same time. He asks CO to demote him to spec and suggests Urist McMarine as a good replacement for vacant SL role (actually, there're some good historical examples of such temporary demotions).

War of attrition causes ranks to be way more fluid, take WW1 and WW2 as good examples of that. Also, I'm fairly sure that acting CO has full authority over lower ranks and promotions during away operations (temporary promotions happens all the time by the way). All it takes is to send a proper request to HQ after mission is over. It's not that common for superiors to decline promotion if it's being suggested by soldier's commanding officer. I hope it covers "unrealistic" part.

As for your example with XO, I already mentioned it few posts back - alright, XO stays as XO and no one is promoted to CO. Now we've got only 1 man with full access to ship systems who has to do ALL work they were prev dividing with CO and in case of his death full access will be lost entirely. It's a common sense to promote (at least temporary) one of BOs to help with shipside problems (or at least to serve as appointed backup replacement, to prevent "Oh, guys, both XO and CO are dead, who should be in command? Maybe CE?"), while XO will deal with all groundside ones, like dead CO did. Now add few more dead crew members - CE, RO, CMO, few doctors - and you'll come to quite usual situation where there's basically no one with proper access. Right now our rules prevent us from both giving additional access and promoting anyone to get those unmanned departments running again.

Like I said, it's an in-game situation and command should have right to act, not just sit tight telling everyone that "Sorry, people, we can't do anything, no access. No, that guy is dead as well, sorry". If it seemed necessary to rotate some personnel or to adjust their access (as long as it makes sense from IC perspective, which is clearly stated in new rules) to resolve a crisis there shouldn't be any evil OOC problems dooming this decision.

P.S. You're trying to count Sully as a part of a bigger well-organized army, while in fact it's more like a cut-off navy ship within enemy waters that's steadily losing crew.

Is it possible we could have a system for perhaps all jobs or maybe just the high up ones that a commander/whoever gets dispatched to the Sulaco to fill the roll then?

It'll ruin whole "alone against the dark" feeling marines are getting from this war.

[apophis775]

Once again, you're missing my point. If bridge staff decided to reassign somebody there's most likely a good reason for that, being it death of former crew, lack of said former crew or simply need to overload a profession to boost effectiveness. As for squad ranks, take this example: original spec of alpha squad died in battle, his body was lost but Urist McMarine managed to save spec's weapon. Let's say it's a sniper rifle. Now we've got a SL that can use it, but he can't snipe effectively while leading his men on a frontline at the same time. He asks CO to demote him to spec and suggests Urist McMarine as a good replacement for vacant SL role (actually, there're some good historical examples of such temporary demotions).

No-one in military history would voluntarily have themselves demoted so someone else can lead their men. Admitting to your command personnel and those below you that you can't maintain command is just about the absolute worst sin a soldier, marine, sailor, or airmen could ever commit.

War of attrition causes ranks to be way more fluid, take WW1 and WW2 as good examples of that. Also, I'm fairly sure that acting CO has full authority over lower ranks and promotions during away operations (temporary promotions happens all the time by the way). All it takes is to send a proper request to HQ after mission is over. It's not that common for superiors to decline promotion if it's being suggested by soldier's commanding officer. I hope it covers "unrealistic" part.

Actually, commanders do not have full authority over lower ranks and promotions during operations. That caused all sorts of shit during WWII and Korea so it was nixed. Instead, we have a Chain of Command and a specific guideline regulating "who's in command" during specific situations. If command personnel are lost, then the highest ranking person is "in command" and they "cede command" whenever another higher ranking person is found. 2 People of the same rank go by what's called "DOR" or "Date of Rank". Then, if both have the same DOR, you go by "DOE" or "Date of Enlistment". If those are the same, you go by Age. I was actually in a situation where our command staff was "killed" (during a training exercise) and we had to revert to DOR to replace command personnel, but noone was "promoted". They instead held the "officer" until a suitable replacement was found. There are additional provisions for "Position" as sometimes a lower ranking person holds a command position depending on specialty, but it typically goes to whoever is the highest rank.

As for your example with XO, I already mentioned it few posts back - alright, XO stays as XO and no one is promoted to CO. Now we've got only 1 man with full access to ship systems who has to do ALL work they were prev dividing with CO and in case of his death full access will be lost entirely. It's a common sense to promote (at least temporary) one of BOs to help with shipside problems (or at least to serve as appointed backup replacement, to prevent "Oh, guys, both XO and CO are dead, who should be in command? Maybe CE?"), while XO will deal with all groundside ones, like dead CO did. Now add few more dead crew members - CE, RO, CMO, few doctors - and you'll come to quite usual situation where there's basically no one with proper access. Right now our rules prevent us from both giving additional access and promoting anyone to get those unmanned departments running again.

As far as who's in command, there is a [url=wiki/RankChain Of Command[/url] under rank. But I do see your point that people in high positions may need additional access. Perhaps then, allowing them to give additional access in times of need would be acceptable. But I'd be against a total "reassignment to the new job".

Like I said, it's an in-game situation and command should have right to act, not just sit tight telling everyone that "Sorry, people, we can't do anything, no access. No, that guy is dead as well, sorry". If it seemed necessary to rotate some personnel or to adjust their access (as long as it makes sense from IC perspective, which is clearly stated in new rules) to resolve a crisis there shouldn't be any evil OOC problems dooming this decision.

I said above, I'd be ok with a rule adjustment to giving expanded access. But I think pushing them to "replace" the job is a bad idea.

Is it possible we could have a system for perhaps all jobs or maybe just the high up ones that a commander/whoever gets dispatched to the Sulaco to fill the roll then?

It'll ruin whole "alone against the dark" feeling marines are getting from this war.[/quote]

We could probably adjust it that if someone ghosts out of a corpse and that corpse is then incinerated it opens a slot. Especially since we'll eventually not have cloning so if someone gets incinerated they are basically "dead dead".

[Surrealistik]

Speaking of ranks, are Doctors going to get the Lieutenant commission they should have?

[apophis775]

We could possible convert Doctors to military ranks, since we've adjusted the gun rules.

[apophis775]

Here's my thing. I have SEEN in regular SS13 how it goes when people can just transfer wherever for whatever reason. I have played on games where I joined as a CE and the "Acting CE" refused to step down and the resulting issues. I've also been in a Medbay when the CMO pissed off the Chemist who was making drugs, so he transferred to Research to do his own thing, leaving Medbay without chemicals. Or when someone decided they wanted to leave security to work in botany. It's total lunacy. Remember, we are NOT LowRP. We are Med RP, leaning towards High.

It undermines how the game is made and supposed to function if people just willy-nilly change their jobs because of their moods. I would 100% always rather have someone cryo and an admin return them to the lobby, then have them reassigned from Squad Medic to Doctor. Not to mention, how that affects he squad. Say you're in Delta and your medic wants to be a doctor and transfers. Well, unless 4 more people wanted to be a medic your squad is medic-less.


I will always be 100% against job changing. Expanding access, I'm not fully against that. Hell, I'd not be against someone taking a dead commanders ID and using it as their own if necessary. But if they can just change themself to command, it will create an environment of total chaos and will not be good for any RP at all. The moment someone can say "I don't like my SL, make me and engineer" is the moment we've lost any sort of "military" RP we've got left. I've been fighting against us losing RP for a long time, and I've done my best to try and maintain at least a small sense that we have RP.

Rank and command structure are something I am very hard pressed on.

[Neray]

No-one in military history would voluntarily have themselves demoted so someone else can lead their men. Admitting to your command personnel and those below you that you can't maintain command is just about the absolute worst sin a soldier, marine, sailor, or airmen could ever commit.

Check out some famous figures from WW1. Plenty of NCOs were asking for a "temporary" demotion, mostly snipers that were promoted for their actions. Wasn't talking about whole rank rotation thing, but my example with alpha lead seems reasonable enough. After all, corporals from his squad can handle it.

Actually, commanders do not have full authority over lower ranks and promotions during operations. That caused all sorts of shit during WWII and Korea so it was nixed. Instead, we have a Chain of Command and a specific guideline regulating "who's in command" during specific situations. If command personnel are lost, then the highest ranking person is "in command" and they "cede command" whenever another higher ranking person is found. 2 People of the same rank go by what's called "DOR" or "Date of Rank". Then, if both have the same DOR, you go by "DOE" or "Date of Enlistment". If those are the same, you go by Age. I was actually in a situation where our command staff was "killed" (during a training exercise) and we had to revert to DOR to replace command personnel, but noone was "promoted". They instead held the "officer" until a suitable replacement was found. There are additional provisions for "Position" as sometimes a lower ranking person holds a command position depending on specialty, but it typically goes to whoever is the highest rank.

1) That's actually very interesting, never got so deep into modern US rank system. Seems reasonable enough.
2) Problem here is that we have to mark those people as acting higher rank officers somehow (gameplay wise). It's hard to tell this info to every single newly joined marine.
3) Armory access. It's all about armory access, since we can't add it via ID consoles without "promoting" ID to CO or XO rank.
4) If access adjustments will be allowed, it'll make life way easier.
5) You still need to maintain proper chain of command. As example: RO was killed, CO gave bridge access and comm headset to CT, but newly joined CT refuses to follow orders of another "CT". Basically those name and rank changes needed only to mark who is who right now. This is a gameplay problem and needs a gameplay way to fix it.
6) Squad medic > doctor and other reassignments like this still looks reasonable, since it's the only way to "replace" dead personnel or rotate it from overpopulated, but similar departments to underpowered ones. And it'll add some more tactical abilities to command: you can heal more wounded at Sully, but there'll be less medics down there, then you can rotate it back and so on.
7) ID name isn't that much of a deal.

I said above, I'd be ok with a rule adjustment to giving expanded access. But I think pushing them to "replace" the job is a bad idea.

I know we don't agree on this whole rank adjustment thing. Regardless, I suggest trying current Rah's version out at least for some time, since it's simple, easily understood and prevents any retarded things that could happen with IDs, while at the same time finally allowing some common sense to kick in. If there'll be issues with "IC perspective" part or if you'll decide that keeping rank name is more important than ease of understanding from marines perspective - we can always tweak and improve it, add exceptions about high ranks etc

UPD:

Here's my thing. I have SEEN in regular SS13 how it goes when people can just transfer wherever for whatever reason. I have played on games where I joined as a CE and the "Acting CE" refused to step down and the resulting issues. I've also been in a Medbay when the CMO pissed off the Chemist who was making drugs, so he transferred to Research to do his own thing, leaving Medbay without chemicals. Or when someone decided they wanted to leave security to work in botany. It's total lunacy. Remember, we are NOT LowRP. We are Med RP, leaning towards High.

It undermines how the game is made and supposed to function if people just willy-nilly change their jobs because of their moods. I would 100% always rather have someone cryo and an admin return them to the lobby, then have them reassigned from Squad Medic to Doctor. Not to mention, how that affects he squad. Say you're in Delta and your medic wants to be a doctor and transfers. Well, unless 4 more people wanted to be a medic your squad is medic-less.


I will always be 100% against job changing. Expanding access, I'm not fully against that. Hell, I'd not be against someone taking a dead commanders ID and using it as their own if necessary. But if they can just change themself to command, it will create an environment of total chaos and will not be good for any RP at all. The moment someone can say "I don't like my SL, make me and engineer" is the moment we've lost any sort of "military" RP we've got left. I've been fighting against us losing RP for a long time, and I've done my best to try and maintain at least a small sense that we have RP.

Rank and command structure are something I am very hard pressed on.

1) When I said that rank system is fluid in crisis situations I meant it could be used for tactical advantage. Reroute 2 medics to medbay when there's a massive amount of wounded, but front itself is quiet, reroute them back down when there's lack of wounded (although medics makes a bad example here - they can simply do it without any ID changes with those new rules).
2) I was talking about replacing dead crew members from the beginning, not about promoting someone just because original guy didn't wake up (IC reason, remember?), which effectively makes your CE example bad.
3) As for lunacy, I agree on that. That's why we need "IC reason" part in rules. There's no IC point in moving all doctors to research team as well as moving all MTs to cargo jobs.
4) Once again - it's just markings, way to make people quickly realise who is who. Otherwise BOs will be arguing because only 1 of them heard XO promoting him to acting XO, CTs will be arguing who's in charge after RO's death and so on (wouldn't be an acting commander called a commander?).
5) Oh, and the thing that I forgot to mention, although it becomes allowed with new set of rules - rank promotions without any rank name changes. Stuff like promoting a veteran PFC to Corporal. We should keep those as well.

We could probably adjust it that if someone ghosts out of a corpse and that corpse is then incinerated it opens a slot. Especially since we'll eventually not have cloning so if someone gets incinerated they are basically "dead dead".

It sounds good, considering things like chance for a new spec to wake up, but I would rather prefer field promotions, since veterans are better at fighting than newly joined baldies with a sergeant rank.

P.S. Guess I'm just too sleepy to keep on writing something useful.

[Nubs]

Will there be a limit to the surgery a medic can do? I'd be comfortable with bone repair surgery or surgery to say, fix internal bleeding and the like, but i'd still rather that doctors are the only ones able to do all surgeries (shrapnel removal, organ repair, amputations etc) Will or won't medics be able to mix chemicals?

[NoahKirchner]

Please write that server rules = discord + forum rules, and the difference between sexual content and ERP and how they are to be handled. (Like ERP is acting out yer player doing it, sexual content is telling a story from when you were younger that involves something with sexual content etc)

[apophis775]

Will there be a limit to the surgery a medic can do? I'd be comfortable with bone repair surgery or surgery to say, fix internal bleeding and the like, but i'd still rather that doctors are the only ones able to do all surgeries (shrapnel removal, organ repair, amputations etc) Will or won't medics be able to mix chemicals?

There will probably be a limit. Also, no one should EVER do internal bleeding surgery. Just use quick-clot, it's faster.

[Surrealistik]

There will probably be a limit. Also, no one should EVER do internal bleeding surgery. Just use quick-clot, it's faster.

Speaking of which, why did you make QuikClot deadlier than VX nerve agent, and virtually any other toxic substance in the game?

[Casany]

Speaking of which, why did you make QuikClot deadlier than VX nerve agent, and virtually any other toxic substance in the game?

Imagine all your blood clotting at the same time. There, you got super deadly drugs

[Surrealistik]

Imagine all your blood clotting at the same time. There, you got super deadly drugs

I keep hearing this, but I keep not seeing why any non-retarded military would employ something deadlier than weaponized poison as standard coagulent

[NoahKirchner]

Please specify the situations in which an XO/CO and set up or fix the SM, I've seen the XO and CO do both of those before both at roundstart and halfway through the match, but it's sort of a grey area.

[RoswellRay]

It can be pushed around, But if anyone stands on the opposite side, it's effectively a wall until melted. I would say a true solution (Coding wise) would just be to make it so that aliens can slash the Ripley wreckage to pieces, which would help get rid of the two on the colony too. But that's getting a bit off topic, It's not a big deal really. I just find the idea of seeing the Ripley out of cargo defending the Sulaco every round a bit silly myself.

They can pull it can't they? I'm all for cargo getting to use the mech if boarded, the rest of thier job is boring as hell, let them have some fun in the last half hour.

[Casany]

I keep hearing this, but I keep not seeing why any non-retarded military would employ something deadlier than weaponized poison as standard coagulent

Because doctors IRL use much more dangerous chemicals, and medics SHOUKD be trained to not use QC more tgen once.

[Rahlzel]

Will there be a limit to the surgery a medic can do?

There won't be a surgery limit in the rules, it'll be built into the mechanics of the game. We're going for an "if you can do something, you're allowed to" type of gameplay. Just don't expect a medic to pull off a head transplant with perfect precision without using a surgery table.

Please write that server rules = discord + forum rules, and the difference between sexual content and ERP and how they are to be handled. (Like ERP is acting out yer player doing it, sexual content is telling a story from when you were younger that involves something with sexual content etc)

Since ERP stands for Erotic Roleplay, I'd say that distinction is pretty obvious. Did you get in trouble for this?

Please specify the situations in which an XO/CO and set up or fix the SM, I've seen the XO and CO do both of those before both at roundstart and halfway through the match, but it's sort of a grey area.

As with SLs, commanding ranks typically have some or most of the knowledge of their superiors, so I'd say it's fine. Especially when setting up the SM is extremely important and there might not be any MTs or a CE.

I've made some ninja adjustments to the Ripley mech that are already in-game so it can't block Xenos anymore (along with some new sounds), so that should take care of that.

[Casany]

Will SLs ever be able to use spec weaponry, since they are higher then spec so should be trained as so

[Rahlzel]

Will SLs ever be able to use spec weaponry, since they are higher then spec so should be trained as so

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[NoahKirchner]

There won't be a surgery limit in the rules, it'll be built into the mechanics of the game. We're going for an "if you can do something, you're allowed to" type of gameplay. Just don't expect a medic to pull off a head transplant with perfect precision without using a surgery table.
Since ERP stands for Erotic Roleplay, I'd say that distinction is pretty obvious. Did you get in trouble for this?
As with SLs, commanding ranks typically have some or most of the knowledge of their superiors, so I'd say it's fine. Especially when setting up the SM is extremely important and there might not be any MTs or a CE.

I've made some ninja adjustments to the Ripley mech that are already in-game so it can't block Xenos anymore (along with some new sounds), so that should take care of that.

N-No... Why would I get in trouble for minichat ERP?

Also the fixing the SM thing is sort of a grey area cuz I had a mod yesterday tell me it was powergaming while I was a CO and he said only MT's/engineers can do it (more fore trialmods tbh) pls I don't want a ban from CO for fixing the SM :P

[Aeleto]

I am not sure if this is the right place, but is the marine law getting updates anytime soon?