Jay Burns, Adding personal rules

[Omsomething]

Your Byond Key: Omsomething

Your Character Name: Geraldine Overstreet

Their Byond key: MOD(Jay Burns)

Approximate time and date of the incident (Central Us Time for best results): 02/12/2016

Which Admin Protocols (viewtopic.php?f=57&t=5647) were broken: Not being right, and applying personal rules.

Description of the incident: I was a doctor as Suleco was being boarded. I had fetched a shotgun from armory (which was blown open) after all hands were called to fight the intruders. I was in a line defending the hangar when admin told me doctors are not supposed to be in 'front lines' and i need to get back to medical. I complied and was shortly after eaten as i was talking with the admin. No such rules exist on server rules and in the doctor subsection only has the followings:
===
ALL NON-MARINE SULACO CREW (Doctors, Engineers, Cargo, MPs, Command, etc)

Do not equip weapons larger than a pistol unless you are in imminent danger.
You may leave the Sulaco to report to the FOB (Forward Operating Base) so long as you have clearance from your department head or a superior officer unless explicitly stated otherwise below.
===

He underlined that only doctors and R&D are not allowed to act in defense of Suleco. This could fall within rule 0. But i see no reason why my gameplay actions were affected without a reason or valid rule to apply. I realize doctors and civilians are not meant on front line but defending hangar i think barely counts as it... and it is pretty horrible gameplay if you just need to cover and die alone when aliens rush in.

Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc):

How you would punish the accused: Write a section on 'random rules for X job class' and then maybe force all staff together to go over them so you can write such thing somewhere instead of making personal decisions on them. I have been similar situation many many times as R&D and never had a complaint about it from admin... and i seen many others do it.

[coroneljones]

I would say that Jay did the right thing
First, you broke the weapon rule, by carrying around a shotgun
Second, doctors arent allowed in the frontline as shown, they are ment to stay in the BACK, as in medical, or a temporary medbay if medical is lost, while the marines protect them.

[Jay Burns]

rule 11:Play your assigned role

if you wanted to shoot shit, should of been a marine.

[Omsomething]

First: I personally would count "Alien space lizard will be here soon to rip everyones face off" as 'imminent danger' but i could be mistaken in this, and the possible weapon violation is a seperate issue. If it broke some rule please deal with it.

Second: So you count defending suleco after general call to arms went out as frontline? And further still could you let me know which part of rules there is mention of this? There seems to be a lot of unmentioned rules, it is not a first time i see this on the server.

As for playing my role:

===
Play your assigned role - If you end up with a role you don't want to play, enter a cryo tube and Ghost (IC tab > Ghost verb). This will release your job slot for a new player to take it over. Make sure you adjust your job preferences next time before you join. If you instead suicide or ghost near round-start, you may receive a job-ban. Set up your job preferences carefully in Setup Character > Occupation Choices. Your best chance at being a Xeno is to set all job preferences to "NEVER", and at the bottom, click the link until it says "Return to lobby if preference unavailable".
===

This rule 11 TO ME seems like it concerns about suiciding on vital job and nothing else. If it somehow is to define how i play as a doctor please explain to me as doctors wiki page does not mention ANYTHING like what you mentioned.

[coroneljones]

"General call to arms"
You have multiple marine squads and MPs, THEY are there to defend the ship, not the medical staff, the medical staff is there to heal them, not risk their lives fighting.

[Omsomething]

Ok, it is good that there is such priority system on the ship. Now how does this relate to question in hand? If there is such a rule as you seem to imply please someone write it in the server rules or the wiki page.

Could be some doctors would act differently than others, could be doctors would shoot a bit and then drag some poor bastard to safety after he walked in someones field of fire? All roles have a TON of leeway on how they could be played. What is the current problems it seems that there are many invisible rules which are not states anywhere and are enforced differently based on admin.

Core issue is here: Doctor in hangar with 5 or so marines as only line of defence against incoming alien hoard is bad? It breaks no written rules and i am hardpressed to see which rule's spirit it breaks.

To me it seems that admins are basically micromanaging what doctors do (no wonder they are played so little) in situations that it does not matter. If admins consider it is OK that admins apply unwritten rules on the server then there is no problem here. Personally i consider it as breeding ground of massive amount of issues.

I try not to be difficult, but i get a feeling you are defensive about this matter or fail to see the implications of such random rulings.

[Casany]

Just real quickly, let me splain something here. DOCTORS ARENT MARINES. If the CO calls for a general come to arms, the doctors ARENT gonna be there. They should be in the back healing, not being a fuckin marine on the front lines. If you wanted to shoot aliens then be a fuckin marine, not a doc. The arguements that your saying are mute because IRL and RPwise NO doctor in their right mind would go charge into a horde of giant lizards with a gun they ARENT EVEN TRAINED TO USE. That's just my input

[Omsomething]

Casany, medics and staff are allowed to use weapons heavier than pistol. That should not even be part of this discussion, and from what you wrote you and me agree. The decision for doctor to be there and do as they choose are UP TO THEM. They should not play as marines, get armor, and actively go down on the planet to hunt for aliens.

They instead are DOCTORS. If they get an order they might go to hangar, they might go to medical or they could just hide in closet and wet themselves. It depends on the person, and as long as they do their CORE TASK with at the least ATTEMPT to competency they can do pretty much anything they want. Sometimes that might mean shooting at alien that is trying to eat your patients. Sometimes it might mean you taking a alien wave in the face as you shoot and try to drag people off.

To me it is all about WHAT KIND OF PERSON you ROLEPLAY as. And in my mind as long as they do their core duties with semi competency admins/mods should just mind their own business. But that is not even the core of the issue i point out. The CORE is that only thing in rules that state this is a problem is flimsily used "rule 11" and mention about doctors duties. Either them do not apply here. This seems to be a real rule based on how many people agree with the mod... it has not been written anywhere!

[Rain7x]

Casany, medics and staff are allowed to use weapons heavier than pistol. That should not even be part of this discussion, and from what you wrote you and me agree. The decision for doctor to be there and do as they choose are UP TO THEM. They should not play as marines, get armor, and actively go down on the planet to hunt for aliens.

They instead are DOCTORS. If they get an order they might go to hangar, they might go to medical or they could just hide in closet and wet themselves. It depends on the person, and as long as they do their CORE TASK with at the least ATTEMPT to competency they can do pretty much anything they want. Sometimes that might mean shooting at alien that is trying to eat your patients. Sometimes it might mean you taking a alien wave in the face as you shoot and try to drag people off.

To me it is all about WHAT KIND OF PERSON you ROLEPLAY as. And in my mind as long as they do their core duties with semi competency admins/mods should just mind their own business. But that is not even the core of the issue i point out. The CORE is that only thing in rules that state this is a problem is flimsily used "rule 11" and mention about doctors duties. Either them do not apply here. This seems to be a real rule based on how many people agree with the mod... it has not been written anywhere!

Whether or not you are roleplaying as a certain character doesn't let you bypass some of the rules. You are not allowed to be fighting with the marines in the hangar, unless you are there to support as a MEDIC.

Also, imminent danger doesn't mean aliens are coming to board the Sulaco. Imminent danger means you are being attacked by something. You are allowed a pistol unless this situation arises.

So I agree with Jay here. You don't really understand the rules well enough to play doctor.

[Omsomething]

You still fail to see WHAT RULES!?

There are no rules i can find that are broken on the rules page or the doctor page. Seems like there indeed are those rules since several mods and an admin states there is so there is very little else to talk about. But if i might make a suggestion:

Write rules down so people can read them, do not spread them with some sort of oral tradition. And as a comment no wonder the server is starved for medical personnel, might be you would want to look into that somehow.

But all in all i take a decisions has been made?

[Feweh]

Play your assigned role, dont equip a weapon larger than a pistol inless your life is in immediete danger.

The only reason your life was in danger is because you lined up and out yourself on the front line.

[slc97]

The rule in question is an extension of the rules as intended for play your assigned role. A doctor should not be a part of hangar defense. A doctor should be working in medbay saving the people who got injured in a hangar defense. If I'm a doctor and hear we're being boarded, I'm one of the few people who can preform medical, I should be in medbay helping the wounded rather than rushing off to fight the boarders.

Otherwise, to explain the imminent danger. You were not in imminent danger when you picked up the shotgun. You picked up the shotgun, ran down to the hangar and put yourself in imminent danger. Imminent danger is more like when there are xenos straight up in medbay, you see a rifle on the ground, pick it up, defend yourself, and then go back to healing people in a temp medbay if medbay is overrun.

You get what I'm saying here?

[Omsomething]

Ugh, i do not care anymore enough to write a novel on why that is wrong and how that kind of chains make it so not many want to play the said roles. I do understand what you mean and realize such things could be needed on server with this level of population, it just makes it... less. I will just be a good puppy and stay in medical if i play as doctor. Just a small clarification: After i stop seeing a xeno do i need to drop the weapon or take it to RO?

Also it seems like the complaint is void so consider it settled.

PS:
If you feel my actions with weapon require actions please make a player complaint about me or just issue a ban you feel appropriate.

PPS:
Someone might want to make a note somewhere on doctor, and others wiki page that they need to stay in their workstations, and that they are outside the Commanders 'call to arms' as xenos come knocking. (And maybe add other role rules that are not stated in rules or wiki page in their proper sections.)

[apophis775]

"Imminent danger" is, you are about to die horribly if you don't shoot it right then and there, not defending the ship. You're a doctor, if you're on the line, it should be to carry away and stabilize wounded, not shoot the ayylamos.

[Omsomething]

Wait so you are saying i could, as a doctor, be in the hangar after all?

[Jroinc1]

Wait so you are saying i could, as a doctor, be in the hangar after all?

Yes. Healing.
You aren't there to fight. And this INCLUDES just lurking there and taking a rifle, when the 'rines have taken damage.

If you head down, you HAVE to make a "good faith" effort to heal.

[freemysoul]

This is completely acceptable, You are a very clear case of a rule bender, And this is the exact reason we added Rule 0.1. As many people have said, you should be playing your assigned role "Doctor" rather then going on the front lines.

[Biolock]

This can also be addressed by the roleplay rules and rules against power gaming. A marine can not perform surgery to remove an embryo the same way a civillian doctor, who's probably never fired a weapon larger than a semi-auto rifle on a rifle range, can not effectively engage enemy combatants.

[Feweh]

Resolved

[Rahlzel]

First: I personally would count "Alien space lizard will be here soon to rip everyones face off" as 'imminent danger'

Just wanted to necro this topic since it was linked to me for the sake of all parties involved and anyone else that may see this despite it being locked and unable to be responded to.

I 100% understand where the quote above is coming from. In a real-life scenario, I could see even a janitor grabbing the biggest weapon they can find and doing whatever they can with it, albeit with difficulty reloading, aiming, or finding how to disable the safety.

Our eventual goal is to have a system that allows anyone to wield any weapon during these imminent danger scenarios but with varying degrees of competence depending on either a default skill amount that comes with their job or a more detailed pick-your-skills system, which would include ranged weapon handling. This way we can do away with what we're forced to do now, which is to force via rules what players can and cannot do - something I personally feel is clunky, inconvenient, often a real pain in the ass, and unrealistic. An "if you can do X, then you are allowed to" (as in, "if you can pick up this gun and shoot it, then you're allowed to") system is much smoother and more enjoyable for the player, and is a definite goal of ours.

EDIT: Wait a second. This is pretty plain:
ALL NON-MARINE SULACO CREW (Doctors, Engineers, Cargo, MPs, Command, etc)
"Do not equip weapons larger than a pistol unless you are in imminent danger."

There was imminent danger, so the Doctor equipped a weapon larger than a pistol. I don't follow why this was denied. I'm moving this back as an open report, because either the rule needs to be changed or I'm not getting the whole story.

EDIT2: He's also correct that "Play your assigned role" is meant for people quitting after joining or suiciding. What the hell is going on here?

[Rahlzel]

After a brief discussion, we're going to tweak the "imminent danger" rule to be more clear. Sorry for the mixup.