Staff Report: VitorThauma

[Symbiosis]

Your Byond Key: Symbiosis

Your Character Name: Cliff "Chubs" Campbell

Their Byond key: Vitorthauma

Approximate time and date of the incident (Central Us Time for best results): 6/24/2018 - 5:00pm

Which Staff Protocols (viewtopic.php?f=57&t=5647) were broken:

Enforcement of the rules
- Whenever a player receives a punishment they should know why and what they are being punished for.
- Ensure that all incidents are adequately investigated before giving a ruling.
- We are not a government repressing their citizens. Don’t hassle players for literally everything.

Description of the incident: I was the CO for the round, saw a CMP refusing to let some Marines past post briefing. From an IC perspective MP's should not be "dicks" to random Marines unless they're violating Marine Law. I've often ordered random XO's, SL's, etc to clean prep rooms, latrines, etc, when they're assholes to subordinates.

Omicega witnessed the exchange between the CMP and myself which ultimately resulted in me giving them a lawful order to clean the prep rooms. They refused. I ordered them arrested for insubordination. Eventually the MP's did.

Omicega later told me that it's being handled at the Head Staff+ level. Later, I was arrested and removed from Command at Vitorthauma's behest. I was later released somewhere at the 13:30 mark of the round. When I came back the planet was essentially lost. Another Command announcement came back later while I was playing Basketball that I've been reinstated... after the XO went to Cryo. I issued a full retreat and R&R at that point.

Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc): Just in case logs are lost this time, I've taken some screenshots of the interactions with the admins, provided the links to Marine Law + Command Structure in the Almayer + the Staff Code of Conduct.

CHAIN OF COMMAND SPECIFICALLY STATING THAT THE CMP MUST FOLLOW ORDERS (not relating to Marine Law): https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

CMP refusing to face the 5 minute sentence for disobeying a direct order - then resisting arrest, but that wasn't added: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

Letter stating I'm being removed from Chain of Command: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

Staff Interactions in case logs are lost:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png


How you would punish the accused: Whatever you see fit for punishment, I know staff is thin right now. I don't care. Really. I just want to be able to play CM without getting jumped on for the tiniest stuff as I'm sure most players do. I literally ordered a subordinate to clean a prep room after he was a being dick to other Marines and tried acting like he didn't have to answer to me or follow my orders. I was well within the rules, not stretching and being asshole to the player, and essentially had my round dunked on. Further, not just my round, but without an acting CO the round quickly fell into chaos. When I was finally "promoted" back into Command when the XO went to cryo, I just ordered a full retreat and R&R.

[taketheshot56]

Can confirm, Im the one who originally ahelped the situation regarding the CMP who refused orders and then called the CO out on command radio "Refusing to be the commanders bitch" after that the CO was removed and the round pretty much went to hell.

This situation could've easily been solved without the mess that occurred.

I for one as CO have dealt with MPs and CMPs using PT and other tasks. Its not illegal to make an order of an MP.

[Bancrose]

I don't enjoy the concept of Staff Reports nor would I do one as I told Vitor but I thought this was not the right move.

I was an MP in the round and handling this situation. I had ahelp'd this as I thought this was not the right thing to do. I late joined and was told the CO had ordered the CMP to do something as he was being a bit of a cunt, which by the way did not impede anything law related as it was a small punishment. When the CMP denied this order. Even talking back on the Command Comms. Not a smart move in my opinion. When he faxed High Command, the Administrator in question had sent a fax back saying the CO was impeding Military Law, even had him ingame demoted as well. I would be fucking PISSED if I had my round ruined as the CO for something like that. By then the XO was not really handling the op as he had to SSD. But it was too late, the damage was done. Op was fucked and the marines had evacced.

There should have never been a point where the Administrator should have just done that but I imagine hes dealing with tons of ahelp regarding Reno and the other preds and this situation from players who were frustrated with what had happened. They are in their right to be upset at this situation as it was ridiculous. I wouldn't want any punishment upon Vitor but I them to know that they should consider other options before taking the CO out of the round for something as trivial as this.

[Omicega]

I answered the initial two ahelps about the issue in its infancy. Here are the relevant logs up to and including the first two ahelps from Taketheshot and Symbiosis.

► Show Spoiler

[15:04:35]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : As a reminder, PFCs are not allowed to cross CP before briefing is over
[15:05:07]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : Where are you going
[15:05:27]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : CMP, did someone order them to be left in briefing?
[15:05:40]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : I was unaware briefing had concluded
[15:05:51]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : So you thought to be involved with operations of the mission - outside of Marine Law, correct?
[15:05:57]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : Eh?
[15:06:03]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : Did anyone ORDER you to keep the Marines back?
[15:06:08]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : No.
[15:06:13]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : Then why did you do it?
[15:06:18]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : Why did you slow the operation down?
[15:06:28]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : Because until after briefing the PFC is not allowed to cross unless medically required.
[15:06:36]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : Under what dictate?
[15:06:56]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : I am unable to specify, however this has always been and will remain the case
[15:07:13]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : No, this has not always been. You told me something very specific. I am asking for you to clarify. Where does it state that, CMP?
[15:07:35]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : I have told you I am unable to specify the origin.
[15:07:44]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : So you made it up, then?
[15:07:52]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : Negative.
[15:08:17]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : Then specify where. You stated something clearly, I am asking you to provide a specific portion of Marine Law that dictates CMP involvement in operational protocol.
[15:08:23]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : I have not the time nor patience to argue with you commander, you have made your point now desist.
[15:08:32]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : You are telling me you don't have time for your Commander?
[15:08:56]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : I do not answer to you. I answer to the needs of the law. If you are not going to talk about something of import then yes, I have no time for you.
[15:09:10]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : You're quite wrong, you DO answer to me. You also answer to Marine Law.
[15:09:21]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : So, here's your direct order. I want you to go into each prep room and clean them up.
[15:09:29]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : I answer to you if you need something relating to the law. But I am not one of your pets.
[15:09:42]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : Failure to obey will result in insubordination. You are a part of this crew, obey your order, CMP.
[15:09:56]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : No. I am not a slave Commander.
[15:09:59]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : You're dismissed, CMP. I'll be down to inspect the prep rooms at 12:35.
[15:10:03]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : Alright then.
[15:10:10]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : If you have an issue you may fax provost.
[15:10:12]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : Disobeying a direct order.
[15:10:26]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : I need a MP to arrest WO Alfred Dome for refusing a direct and lawful order.
[15:10:26]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : I need a MP to arrest WO Alfred Dome for refusing a direct and lawful order.
[15:10:31]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : Ha
[15:10:35]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : If you have concerns YOU fax the provost. Not me.
[15:10:52]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : You require a fax from high command to authorise my arrest commander.
[15:10:52]SAY: Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell/Symbiosis : The CMP is disobeying a direct order.
[15:11:23]SAY: Alfred Dome/Forest2001 : I refused to be the commander's bitch and tidy the prep rooms.

[15:12:03]ADMIN: HELP: Taketheshot56/(Patton 'Hardtack' Moore): CMP is refusing orders and disrespecting the CO overs comms. - heard by 7 non-AFK admins.

[15:12:32]ADMIN: HELP: Symbiosis/(Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell): CMP refused a direct and lawful order, Insubordination. He believes he is not beholden to orders from the Commander. Please advise as he believes he is immune to lawful orders - and cannot be arrested without High Command involvement. - heard by 6 non-AFK admins.

Here are the full logs of my own PMs to and from Symbiosis, the WO, and the two arresting MPs. During this series of PMs I at some point asked for help in msay as I wanted a second opinion on how best to handle things.

► Show Spoiler

[15:13:00]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->WO: Hey. Can you help me figure out what's going on between you and the commander?
[15:13:26]ADMIN: PM: WO->Omicega/(Chloe): He ordered me to clean up the prep rooms and I said no. I am not his bitch, nor is it my job.
[15:13:43]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->WO: Did he just order you to clean the prep rooms with no context, or was there something that led up to that?
[15:14:03]ADMIN: PM: WO->Omicega/(Chloe): This stemmed from my prevention of PFCs crossing the CP which is common place is it not? I was unable to specify the reasoning behind this because I do not know, I only know it has always been enforced.
[15:15:05]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->WO: It is commonplace, and if I had to point to a specific law about it I'd pick trespassing as the one that the shutters prevent - at least pre-briefing. Did he take issue with you stopping PFCs going past the shutters?
[15:15:15]ADMIN: PM: WO->Omicega/(Chloe): Yes
[15:15:21]ADMIN: PM: WO->Omicega/(Chloe): And he's having me arrested
[15:16:23]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->WO: So you were asked to justify it via a specific law, couldn't, and then he ordered you to clean the prep rooms, after which you directly refused?
[15:16:42]ADMIN: PM: WO->Omicega/(Chloe): Affirmative. I am not his bitch to do something outside my job.
[15:18:00]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->WO: He is still your superior, and additionally the CO has the authority to give out NJPs, although it's unusual that he'd ever have to give one out to a CMP in the first place. Are you aware that insubordination - or any marine law break - as MP staff constitutes a server rule break?
[15:18:44]ADMIN: PM: WO->Omicega/(Chloe): Are you going to tell me that ordering me to do something outside of my job is insubordination? I am not the slave of the commander. He is overstepping his bounds.
[15:19:08]ADMIN: PM: WO->Omicega/(Chloe): The last time I was present for the arrest of a CMP provost had to be called anyway.
[15:20:43]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->WO: Since it's an NJP from the CO to the CMP, it's a little complicated. For what it's worth, I think you should have ahelped as soon as he started taking issue with the briefing shutters, because to me that constitutes a little bit of undue interference with something that's basically standard procedure at this point. Have you been formally arrested or anything yet?
[15:21:15]ADMIN: PM: WO->Omicega/(Chloe): No but it won't be long, I'm attempting to talk my way out of it as a report to provost pending but it won't be long before the take me by force
[15:21:48]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->WO: How long do they intend to brig you for? My ideal solution for this would be to leave it IC and have you fax the Provost.
[15:21:55]ADMIN: PM: WO->Omicega/(Chloe): Tased
[15:22:04]ADMIN: PM: WO->Omicega/(Chloe): I can't fax anyone now.
[15:22:52]ADMIN: PM: WO->Omicega/(Chloe): They haven't specified a time. And again the last time I was present for attempted arrest of a CMP a fax was ordered to be sent as Sarah had to come as an admiral to sort it out
[15:23:07]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->MP #1: Let him go for now, this whole situation is getting a bit out of hand here.
[15:23:24]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->MP #2: Let him go for now, please. Trying to sort this mess out.
[15:23:34]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->WO: Getting it resolved, hang on.
[15:25:23]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->Symbiosis/(Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell): Hey, just a heads up. The CMP situation is a little complex but I believe it might be being resolved IC. For future reference, though, I don't think you can NJP the CMP like that.
[15:25:35]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->WO: Send that fax, by the way.
[15:25:57]ADMIN: PM: WO->Omicega/(Chloe): I just got a magical intuition so yah
[15:26:01]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->MP #1: It's a little complex, yeah. We're trying to sort it out.
[15:26:06]ADMIN: PM: Symbiosis/(Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell)->Omicega/(Chloe): The rules are quite long, so I don't see anywhere where the CMP can't be ordered to assist shipside... Heh. They've been changing lately, so I might've missed something.
[15:26:46]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->MP #2: Just leave him for now. He's being allowed to fax High Command and hope that it gets resolved. Also, try to keep your OOC text out of IC channels - don't do the double brackets thing here
[15:27:04]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->MP #2: Cool. Thanks for understanding.
[15:27:09]ADMIN: PM: Symbiosis/(Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell)->Omicega/(Chloe): Basically. They're a part of the ship. If they're going to be douchebags IC to other Marines, they have to understand they answer to someone. Eventually. Even if it's just a shit duty... like cleaning up a mess.
[15:27:51]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->Symbiosis/(Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell): Yeah, I saw the whole thing happen and was erring on a more neutral stance originally, but it's turning out to be a bit more of a complex issue because it's the CMP specifically who's involved. I believe it's going to be resolved through a fax, but don't quote me on that.
[15:28:18]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->MP #2: Don't arrest him at all unless something else comes up. In general, if you think you ever have to arrest the CMP, you should ahelp and check with admins that it's okay.
[15:28:52]ADMIN: PM: Symbiosis/(Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell)->Omicega/(Chloe): Gotcha. I mean, it's like 5 minutes to clean the prep rooms. But to be a dick to Marines - then when YOUR superior shows up and has you do something minor... Kinda just trying to act like some "I answer to nobody and can be a jerk whenever I want and there is nothing you can do about it." From what I know, the Commander can order anyone to do anything as long as it's not against server rules or violates Marine Law, right?
[15:29:09]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->MP #2: Yes, but that constitutes an illegal order unless he's done something provably wrong. You don't have to follow illegal orders - and shouldn't.
[15:29:24]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->MP #2: It would be the same if the CO asked you to kill a survivor or something. It's an illegal order and you refuse to follow it.
[15:30:36]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->Symbiosis/(Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell): The CMP being involved makes it a problematic area, or so I've been advised. NJPing the CMP of all people makes things very shaky, as does ordering MPs to arrest their own superior.
[15:31:17]ADMIN: PM: Symbiosis/(Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell)->Omicega/(Chloe): Of course, but I didn't want to ahelp and have the guy CMP banned for breaking a minor law. Which from what I understand, CMP's aren't supposed to do, right? Just tried to handle it IC, heh.
[15:31:44]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->Symbiosis/(Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell): I know. I was there and saw you trying to, in my view, handle it IC. That's how I was able to mark it so quickly.
[15:40:20]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->Symbiosis/(Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell): It's being taken to higher-ups for a final clarification. For what it's worth, I'll give my account of what transpired as accurately as I can, since I was there for what I think is the majority of it. For the rest of the round, just take it as an IC thing - presumably he did the five minutes of cleanup then faxed. I'll tell the WO the same thing.
[15:41:18]ADMIN: PM: Symbiosis/(Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell)->Omicega/(Chloe): Sounds good. I've read over the rules again. I understand the no BE's rule and stuff for MP's, but having a soft grief rule where they can bully Marines doesn't seem to be what the rules are aiming for with MP's. Especially since it wasn't something like "Guard engineering for the entire Op".
[15:41:28]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->WO: It's being taken to higher-ups for a final ruling. As far as the round goes, we're just leaving it IC - pretend you did the five minutes of cleanup and then faxed, or that you had the attempted arrest and then faxed - the main thing is that the OOC clash between what the CO can and can't order the CMP to do is going to be cleared up. Sound good?
[15:41:49]ADMIN: PM: WO->Omicega/(Chloe): Affirmative, I have a reply now.
[15:42:24]ADMIN: PM: Omicega/(Chloe)->Symbiosis/(Cliff 'Chubs' Campbell): I agree, I personally don't think the order was out of line, but like I said I'm being asked to get a final clarification on this incident and on the concept in general from heads, so I'm just letting you know that they'll be taking a look at it to figure out how we address this situation in the future.

At some point in the above logs, Vitor told me he intended to send a fax to help resolve the issue ICly, as well as for me to bring up the general issue of COs ordering CMPs in this manner to head staff. You can see the point in my PM logs where I intervene and stop the arrest on the CMP so that he could even fax the Provost in the first place and get a reply. This is the fax that came back (edited to clean up the messy HTML that looks awful in log form):

► Show Spoiler

[15:39:01]ADMIN: VitorThauma/(Sarah Powers) replied to a fax message from Forest2001/(Alfred Dome):

USCM CENTRAL COMMAND
Commander Removal - 24 June 2186
Alfred Dome,
Greetings CMP. I have watched the recording of the body cameras and heard the audio of the situation you have reported. It has come up to me that it was in fact an illegal order, and the Commander of the USS Almayer was interfering with the work of the Military Police. With that being stated, I decide to remove the Commander from their post for the time being, replacing him with the next in the chain of command. Report back once the Commander has been removed and arrested.

Provost General Susan Kingston
Office of the Provost General
United States Colonial Marine Corps

This is more or less all the evidence that led up to things getting out of hand, I think. It's late and I've been involved in handling this thing for hours now, so I'm sorry if I overlooked the inclusion of anything important.

[Rahlzel]

Just in case logs are lost this time,

Staff Interactions in case logs are lost:

This report is getting taken care of by someone else. I'm just poking my head in to make sure you're aware that the logs issue is a technical one and not a convenient one. It's directly related to the intermittent "player saves not loading" issue that we have if the server runs for too long without restarting - all text functions such as loading from or saving to are gone, including admin rights, player saves, and logs. I should probably make an announcement about this so everyone knows.

[Emeraldblood]

The CMP is the last person who should be breaking Marine Law and as such, should be the last person you should be ordered to be arrested. Ordering them to be arrested will usually point to the Commander as the one at fault here. You ended up being in a grey area where it was taken that your punishment to the CMP was an NJP from the start rather than just a direct order to the CMP. Normally, the CMP shouldn't be getting arrested for any reason as they can't break the law in the first place. Normally, the CMP would be the one reprimanded here and the CO could continue his duties. I've talked to Vitor regarding the whole situation and the case has been dealt with. Sorry for any problems this may have caused.

Resolved - Staff was contacted regarding the case and has been resolved.

[Rahlzel]

Poking my head in again, this time with relevance.

There's going to be some growing pains while we get used to the new rules and Marine Laws. Hopefully the last sentence that was just added to the NJPs section of Marine Law will clear this up: wiki/Marine_Law#Non-Judicial_Punishments_.28NJPs.29