Your Byond Key: Abra_killing
Your Character Name: Phil Larson
Their Byond key: Blade2000br
Approximate time and date of the incident (Central Us Time for best results): 2018-07-02 ~22:30 GMT
Which Staff Protocols (viewtopic.php?f=57&t=5647) were broken:
1. Send a personal message (PM) to the violator asking them to explain their actions
2. Investigate the situation
3. Determine the seriousness of the issue
Description of the incident:
I (CMP) walk up with another MP to a Salesman waiting to get on the Alamo to head to the planet. He has weapons but hey, he's heading to an alien infested planet so reasonable thing.
Corporate liaison starts talking about WY "hearing about this" since I apparently tolerate heavily armed colonists on the ship. I don't tolerate them, but this is the first time I'm seeing the colonist or hearing about him and he's about to get off the ship to an alien infested planet. Corporate liaison claims he was held up at gunpoint. Salesman is asked whether it happened, he says yes. Salesman is asked why he did it, he says the CL stole his briefcase. I ask the CL whether he did it. He starts off with a rant that the Salesman is his employee, everything is owned by the WY and so on.
So here is the picture from my point of view: CL steals stuff from the salesman, salesman points a gun at the CL to get his stuff back and is about to get off the ship back to the planet. Salesman is not a passenger, since he wants to leave it is not my job to deny a person not on the crew manifest or in any way related to us from leaving even if he did commit a minor crime of pointing a gun at someone else to get his things back. It is reasonable to believe that some money in a briefcase of a traveling salesman belongs to the salesman himself, not WY. It is not my job to watch over whether a particular item is WY property or not. This also sounds like self defense, being robbed is a good enough reason to pull a gun on a complete stranger.
I make a decision and allow the Salesman to get out of my sight off the ship. Meanwhile the CL is a passenger and he did admit to stealing things so I make the decision to arrest him. I tell him multiple times to get on the ground and he walks away. I point my laser at him and he stops while I tell him to get down again. He then makes a run for it and I finally get him in his office.
I order another MP to take the CL to the brig charged with theft and resisting arrest. In the CIC tunnel the CE attacks the MP with pepper spray and the CE and CL take off. We spend some time hunting down the CE and finally get him. CL almost gets captured a few times but manages to stay hidden and evade capture.
I start to get bwoinked by Blade2000br. Starts with simple questions, I answer shortly what happened which is that the CE is permabrigged and CL is on the loose but currently being hunted down for theft and resisting arrest. He then starts asking about why did I allow colonists to walk around armed. I reply that I didn't see the colonist until he was already on his way back to the planet. He asks me again why I as CMP allowed the colonists to walk around armed. I reply again. Then questions like this continue, all regarding the colonist being armed, colonist being let go, "what if the colonist shot the CL?". After over 15 minutes of constant bwoinking of hypothetical questions and "why did I allow colonist to walk around with guns", "why did I allow the colonist to threaten the CL", "what if the colonist shot the CL", "do you think it is okay if the colonist shot the CL" kind of questions I finally tell him in full caps that I did not allow anything, I did not meet the colonist or know of his existence until he was at the alamo heading down and that I didn't arrest the colonist because he's heading to the planet and as such no longer my problem.
Bwoinking continued and I told him that I am not dealing with him anymore and ahelped that I want someone else to handle the issue.
Then he messages me for "being rude to the staff" and bans me.
Problem 1: wiki/Rules Rule 15: Military Police - All Military Police jobs can never break Marine Law themselves, but they are not required to enforce Marine Law 100% of the time unless ordered by a superior.
As CMP it is under my discretion whether colonists get their guns confiscated or not (unless CO orders otherwise). It is under my discretion whether I prosecute a minor crime of a visitor such as pointing a gun at a person that took your property (which is borderline self defense) and so on. I made the decision to allow them to leave the ship and that's my right.
Problem 2:
Staff has a right to investigate. I don't know what information they got, they have to ask.
They DO NOT have a right to put a person on trial and put words in peoples mouths and completely dismissing what the person is trying to say. Things like "What if the colonist shot the CL?" "So you allow colonists to walk around with guns" when I CLEARLY and REPEATEDLY said that I did not meet the colonist until he was already leaving are pure harassment and it's more of an interrogation than a friendly conversation to ask what happened.
I'd like to remind you that I could have just said "I don't feel like arresting the colonist" and it would have been perfectly fine according to marine law and the server rules.
I understand that sometimes reading is difficult. Maybe he didn't understand me once. Or twice. Or three times or even four times. But over 15 god damn minutes of bwoinking accusing me of nonsense that has nothing to do with me is simply unacceptable and is plain griefing.
This sounds suspiciously like he was the CL himself or he was best buddies with the CL and went after me even though I did absolutely nothing wrong and was within my right to do.
Problem 3:
I asked that someone else deal with it and was banned for it. It is unacceptable that when I adminhelp "This guy is handling the situation terribly, I want to talk to someone else" the solution to that is that the staff member in question just bans me for being rude.
This is abuse of power.
Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc): I was busy playing the game and when I got banned, it was already too late to get the messages.
How you would punish the accused:
Suspension.
If the was the CL or he's buddies with the CL: Permanent removal and blacklist from staff positions for nepotism and abuse of power.
Staff Report: Blade2000br
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Abra_killing
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Symbiosis
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Re: Staff Report: Blade2000br
I was on during this round as an MP (Using the power of donuts and food to handle small crimes).
The CL, CE, and a Researcher were pretty heavily involved in some shenanigans throughout the round.
First of all, not everything on the colony belongs to W-Y, so if the CL stole from the Survivor, him pulling a gun is an avenue of self defense especially if he didn't shoot.
Self-Defense and the Defense of Others
Criminal charges are not to be applied to those who use force on others when defending themselves from illegal use of force, so long as they defend themselves with proportional force.
My interactions with the crime were limited to trying to chase them down and the various uses of peppersprays/etc to escape.
The CMP was very IC with all his arrests this round, making sure we were doing paperwork and such.
The CL claiming that everything on the colony is owned by W-Y is false, as they don't own people. Slavery is outlawed. Thus, personal possessions would also be owned by the Character/Player. If the CL stole from the Survivor, he was protected by Marine Law when it comes to self-defense, especially since the CL stole from him.
I can't speak for how they acted when approached by BladeBR, but this is my experience with the CMP, CL, and the situations that arose during that round with the CL/Survivor. The CMP was protected by Marine Law in the first place if the Survivor had his belongings stolen by the CL. I'd reckon being approached by Blade was more of a situation of BladeBR not knowing Marine Law had changed with self-defense.
**Edit** -
Finding out the CMP told the Moderator to "Fuck off" means there's zero question in my mind the 24h ban was LIGHT. Don't make it out that you were banned for just not arresting the survivor... makes the report look bad.
The CL, CE, and a Researcher were pretty heavily involved in some shenanigans throughout the round.
First of all, not everything on the colony belongs to W-Y, so if the CL stole from the Survivor, him pulling a gun is an avenue of self defense especially if he didn't shoot.
Self-Defense and the Defense of Others
Criminal charges are not to be applied to those who use force on others when defending themselves from illegal use of force, so long as they defend themselves with proportional force.
My interactions with the crime were limited to trying to chase them down and the various uses of peppersprays/etc to escape.
The CMP was very IC with all his arrests this round, making sure we were doing paperwork and such.
The CL claiming that everything on the colony is owned by W-Y is false, as they don't own people. Slavery is outlawed. Thus, personal possessions would also be owned by the Character/Player. If the CL stole from the Survivor, he was protected by Marine Law when it comes to self-defense, especially since the CL stole from him.
I can't speak for how they acted when approached by BladeBR, but this is my experience with the CMP, CL, and the situations that arose during that round with the CL/Survivor. The CMP was protected by Marine Law in the first place if the Survivor had his belongings stolen by the CL. I'd reckon being approached by Blade was more of a situation of BladeBR not knowing Marine Law had changed with self-defense.
**Edit** -
Finding out the CMP told the Moderator to "Fuck off" means there's zero question in my mind the 24h ban was LIGHT. Don't make it out that you were banned for just not arresting the survivor... makes the report look bad.
Last edited by Symbiosis on 02 Jul 2018, 21:02, edited 1 time in total.
Cliff "Chubs" Campbell
"Hey, did anyone bring any food with them?”
Thwei Kv’var - Blood Hunter
"Hey, did anyone bring any food with them?”
Thwei Kv’var - Blood Hunter
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Jaketeaking
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Re: Staff Report: Blade2000br
Player notes.
Relevant logs, with the "rudeness" highlighted.
Relevant player report from the CL in question: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=17830
Code: Select all
Player has a character called Cill Barson. Not boinked due to a previous judgement, however recieved 3-4 adminhelps over the name. | Sun, June 17th of 2018
^ Told to change name. | Sun, June 17th of 2018
Warned for Improper Escalation, retialiated against accidental-FF then got Shot again and returned fire. | Sun, June 24th of 2018
Banned |Duration: 1440 minutes|Reason: He knew about the colonist helding off at gun point the CL because he had done theft. Proceeded to go after the CL and let the colonist go. Once questioned, started to get overly agressive and insulted me. Giving a ban to get him to cool off. | ► Show Spoiler
Relevant player report from the CL in question: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=17830
The man known as James 'patch' Alfonse. also gets called hotdog and "lemon.
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do, and they will surprise you with their ingenuity" - General George S Patton
WO first ever round -- only doctor.
WOv2 - First ever CO to survive more than 30 minutes, thanks to the help of bravo, charlie, delta, and flex the madman who killed at least 30 using an MG turret and an epic bombardment
https://snag.gy/I60qtG.jpg -- an average CM round for me
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do, and they will surprise you with their ingenuity" - General George S Patton
WO first ever round -- only doctor.
WOv2 - First ever CO to survive more than 30 minutes, thanks to the help of bravo, charlie, delta, and flex the madman who killed at least 30 using an MG turret and an epic bombardment
https://snag.gy/I60qtG.jpg -- an average CM round for me
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awan
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Re: Staff Report: Blade2000br
I am going to try and stay factual with the report as I was there and semi-involved. (Involved with the ic situation the cl is the one who send the ahelp.)
[17:27:44]ADMIN: PM: Blade2000br/(Jason 'Punk' Crowmel)->Abra_killing/(Phil Larson): Hey there, can you tell me why you are after the CL?
There are 3 rules/protocols you say he broke:
That first pm means he did not break the protocol on:
1. Send a personal message (PM) to the violator asking them to explain their actions
He did send a pm asking you to explain your actions.
2. Investigate the situation
He send loads of pms back and forth about the situation that was his investigation.
There might be conclusions in there that are wrong but he was doing his best to investigate.
And I know how hard it is to not feel attacked by the investigation and assumptions but we do our best as volenteers.
3. Determine the seriousness of the issue
You were not banned for the incident. (That the cl chose to make a player report about.)
You were banned for the disrespect you gave him by calling him a bad moderator.
Now, I was involved and should because of that not have stepped in.
But in my opinion any other mod could have stepped in and taken over.
However: You do not have the right to pick who handles your case. And you were quite hostile so no one was obligated in any way to take over.
[17:27:44]ADMIN: PM: Blade2000br/(Jason 'Punk' Crowmel)->Abra_killing/(Phil Larson): Hey there, can you tell me why you are after the CL?
There are 3 rules/protocols you say he broke:
That first pm means he did not break the protocol on:
1. Send a personal message (PM) to the violator asking them to explain their actions
He did send a pm asking you to explain your actions.
2. Investigate the situation
He send loads of pms back and forth about the situation that was his investigation.
There might be conclusions in there that are wrong but he was doing his best to investigate.
And I know how hard it is to not feel attacked by the investigation and assumptions but we do our best as volenteers.
3. Determine the seriousness of the issue
You were not banned for the incident. (That the cl chose to make a player report about.)
You were banned for the disrespect you gave him by calling him a bad moderator.
Now, I was involved and should because of that not have stepped in.
But in my opinion any other mod could have stepped in and taken over.
However: You do not have the right to pick who handles your case. And you were quite hostile so no one was obligated in any way to take over.
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TexasTwoStep
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Re: Staff Report: Blade2000br
Depending on the Code, Survivor's aren't even allowed Weapons on the Almayer: That's why they're suppose to be strip-searched when they arrive.
You do not pull a weapon out on someone who stole something from you, this isn't Texas: This is UA, Theft would be applicable to the CL. You as a MP can never break Marine Law, let's talk about Neglect of Duty:
Neglect of duty Failure to perform their role to an acceptable standard. For example, a Commander failing to properly organize and ensure his personnel are given orders. Failing to follow proper procedures is also considered Neglect of Duty. Any officer who commits a crime may be charged with Neglect of Duty.
A CMP that has been notified, told, spoken about or to with or who a crime and proceeds to do nothing about a crime which involves a Crew-Member being threatened with a Firearm, one that isn't even Authorized (especially aboard the USS Almayer) and then fails to arrest said individual would most likely classify that as Neglect of Duty.
That isn't a small oversight, you're literally letting a Highway Robber leave the ship into a Planet (oh by the way you have jurisdiction over the Planet as well in case you didn't know.)
Charge's you could've applied to the Survivor:
Unauthorized Weapon
Assault with a deadly weapon
For argument's sake, threatening someone would be pointing the firearm at them or brandishing it in a fashion deemed threatening by the individual (CL.) That's lawful text, this is suppose to be Marine Law, that's what IMHO we're considering it.
You failed your duties as an CMP, when Blade tried to message you giving you the circumstances he saw to be very Neglectful, you told him to fuck off.
You do not pull a weapon out on someone who stole something from you, this isn't Texas: This is UA, Theft would be applicable to the CL. You as a MP can never break Marine Law, let's talk about Neglect of Duty:
Neglect of duty Failure to perform their role to an acceptable standard. For example, a Commander failing to properly organize and ensure his personnel are given orders. Failing to follow proper procedures is also considered Neglect of Duty. Any officer who commits a crime may be charged with Neglect of Duty.
A CMP that has been notified, told, spoken about or to with or who a crime and proceeds to do nothing about a crime which involves a Crew-Member being threatened with a Firearm, one that isn't even Authorized (especially aboard the USS Almayer) and then fails to arrest said individual would most likely classify that as Neglect of Duty.
That isn't a small oversight, you're literally letting a Highway Robber leave the ship into a Planet (oh by the way you have jurisdiction over the Planet as well in case you didn't know.)
Charge's you could've applied to the Survivor:
Unauthorized Weapon
Assault with a deadly weapon
For argument's sake, threatening someone would be pointing the firearm at them or brandishing it in a fashion deemed threatening by the individual (CL.) That's lawful text, this is suppose to be Marine Law, that's what IMHO we're considering it.
You failed your duties as an CMP, when Blade tried to message you giving you the circumstances he saw to be very Neglectful, you told him to fuck off.
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Sir Lordington
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Re: Staff Report: Blade2000br
Regarding the CMP's IC actions, I'd say they are, per rules, legitimate.
Not per the Self-Defence clause, as threatening someone with a gun over a nonviolent theft is not proportionate but because he was not ordered to do anything about the survivor and therefore could ignore it. Now, the Neglect of Duty argument may be brandished, but it may also be arguedto think that not enforcing a law when not ordered t ois not Neglect of Duty as the rules specify you don't have to, and considering it Neglect of Duty would be using the rules to bypass the rules.
Overall, I do think there is an oversight and MPs should not be overlooking major breaches of law even when not ordered to, but as it stands it in a grey area so I'd say neither the investigation nor the CMP's inaction were wrong.
That said, the disrespect to staff stands and is in no way excusable, whatever you may think of Blade's questioning.
Not per the Self-Defence clause, as threatening someone with a gun over a nonviolent theft is not proportionate but because he was not ordered to do anything about the survivor and therefore could ignore it. Now, the Neglect of Duty argument may be brandished, but it may also be arguedto think that not enforcing a law when not ordered t ois not Neglect of Duty as the rules specify you don't have to, and considering it Neglect of Duty would be using the rules to bypass the rules.
Overall, I do think there is an oversight and MPs should not be overlooking major breaches of law even when not ordered to, but as it stands it in a grey area so I'd say neither the investigation nor the CMP's inaction were wrong.
That said, the disrespect to staff stands and is in no way excusable, whatever you may think of Blade's questioning.
I used to play Luke Compton. Now I play Reginald Dempsey.
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Abra_killing
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Re: Staff Report: Blade2000br
@awan
After the initial "hey what's going on", I count 5 instances of the same "why did you let the colonist..." with me replying 6 times that "I did not let the colonist...". That's not how conversations are supposed to work, this isn't a police flick where you ask the same question 10 times and put pressure on the guy hoping that he cracks and spills the beans. This is an interrogation, not an investigation. He kept asking the same question and trying to frame me by posing leading questions and accusing me of things that never even happened or are completely irrelevant. He then repeated the same bullshit questions after I answered. And again, and again. What kind of fucking question is "So if the colonist murdered the CL, you would just allow it?", it is not relevant to the case and is just there to throw accusations and words in my mouth as if this is something that happened or I was allowing to happen.
@TexasTwoStep
CMP is a Chief of MILITARY POLICE. All marine shenanigans fall under the jurisdiction of the MP's. No questions there. Shenanigans between two civilians, neither of which is working for the military (one is a glorified tourist and the other is not related to the military at all that just happened to get a bandaid from medbay)? That starts to go into the area of "not my job". I quoted the rulebook already and I'll quote marine law: "The Chief MP has final say on law enforcement within his operational area unless overseen by higher officials of the Provost Marshal Office.". My final say was that an alleged pointing of a gun at the CL after CL admitted stealing, which could easily be interpreted as self defense by the way, with the colonist being at his best behavior and the CL at his worst, the decision was to send the colonist off to back where he came from so that the situation could be defused and we could go back to killing aliens and brigging marines for punching ensigns instead of some civilian shenanigans that happened behind closed doors.
I quote the rules again: wiki/Rules Rule 15: Military Police - All Military Police jobs can never break Marine Law themselves, but they are not required to enforce Marine Law 100% of the time unless ordered by a superior.
It does not say anything about "small". If the colonist was a dick and the CL was on his best behavior, I'd gladly throw the book at the colonist. But today the CL was a dick and CL got the book thrown at him for being a dick even after the colonist was allowed to return to the planet.
Current rules and marine law CLEARLY states that it is CMP's decision (if CO does not override it) to do such things. It cannot be neglect of duty if the CMP makes the decision.
This is a roleplaying server. Why the fuck did I get bwoinked by staff at every single arrest we made? I'd like the rest posted too so that you'll have an idea that while coordinating the MP's and taking care of marines beating each other I had to deal with constant questioning of my decisions.
You clearly do not know the new rules and new marine law.
@Sir Lordington
It's not like we ignored the colonist and allowed him wreak havoc on the ship while we sat down and ate donuts.
I walk out of the brig after dealing with a bunch of marine shenanigans, see an armed colonist and an MP and the colonist wants to leave and a CL being a total dick to the MP's and myself. I made the decision that the colonist may leave if he wants since no actual harm was done and it's a peaceful roleplay promoting solution. He was NOT allowed ANYTHING except walk 3 tiles into the Alamo and get off my ship. We were not aware of the colonist before this moment and we were not aware of any shenanigans except what CL mentioned between his "I will report this to WY" moans.
If discretion and usage of brains from the CMP is not the intent of the server rule and marine law then remove them or modify them.
Harassing me the whole round and banning me when I told him to fuck off and get someone else to handle it is not proper behavior from a staff member.
► Show Spoiler
@TexasTwoStep
CMP is a Chief of MILITARY POLICE. All marine shenanigans fall under the jurisdiction of the MP's. No questions there. Shenanigans between two civilians, neither of which is working for the military (one is a glorified tourist and the other is not related to the military at all that just happened to get a bandaid from medbay)? That starts to go into the area of "not my job". I quoted the rulebook already and I'll quote marine law: "The Chief MP has final say on law enforcement within his operational area unless overseen by higher officials of the Provost Marshal Office.". My final say was that an alleged pointing of a gun at the CL after CL admitted stealing, which could easily be interpreted as self defense by the way, with the colonist being at his best behavior and the CL at his worst, the decision was to send the colonist off to back where he came from so that the situation could be defused and we could go back to killing aliens and brigging marines for punching ensigns instead of some civilian shenanigans that happened behind closed doors.
I quote the rules again: wiki/Rules Rule 15: Military Police - All Military Police jobs can never break Marine Law themselves, but they are not required to enforce Marine Law 100% of the time unless ordered by a superior.
It does not say anything about "small". If the colonist was a dick and the CL was on his best behavior, I'd gladly throw the book at the colonist. But today the CL was a dick and CL got the book thrown at him for being a dick even after the colonist was allowed to return to the planet.
Current rules and marine law CLEARLY states that it is CMP's decision (if CO does not override it) to do such things. It cannot be neglect of duty if the CMP makes the decision.
This is a roleplaying server. Why the fuck did I get bwoinked by staff at every single arrest we made? I'd like the rest posted too so that you'll have an idea that while coordinating the MP's and taking care of marines beating each other I had to deal with constant questioning of my decisions.
You clearly do not know the new rules and new marine law.
@Sir Lordington
It's not like we ignored the colonist and allowed him wreak havoc on the ship while we sat down and ate donuts.
I walk out of the brig after dealing with a bunch of marine shenanigans, see an armed colonist and an MP and the colonist wants to leave and a CL being a total dick to the MP's and myself. I made the decision that the colonist may leave if he wants since no actual harm was done and it's a peaceful roleplay promoting solution. He was NOT allowed ANYTHING except walk 3 tiles into the Alamo and get off my ship. We were not aware of the colonist before this moment and we were not aware of any shenanigans except what CL mentioned between his "I will report this to WY" moans.
If discretion and usage of brains from the CMP is not the intent of the server rule and marine law then remove them or modify them.
Harassing me the whole round and banning me when I told him to fuck off and get someone else to handle it is not proper behavior from a staff member.
Last edited by Abra_killing on 02 Jul 2018, 21:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Abra_killing
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Re: Staff Report: Blade2000br
Staff code of conduct has " - We are not a government repressing their citizens. Don’t hassle players for literally everything. " in it.
This is hassling for literally everything. If you pull logs from round start you'll see bwoinking for every little thing.
If you can't handle harsh criticism from others then you shouldn't be in a position of power. Banning people for such minor things with zero warning is not acceptable.
This is hassling for literally everything. If you pull logs from round start you'll see bwoinking for every little thing.
If you can't handle harsh criticism from others then you shouldn't be in a position of power. Banning people for such minor things with zero warning is not acceptable.
Last edited by Abra_killing on 02 Jul 2018, 21:33, edited 1 time in total.
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forest2001
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Re: Staff Report: Blade2000br
I’m guessing it’s my turn to comment now.
Armed personnel on the ship are exactly what your job is about.
Searching survivors to prevent this is just short of mandatory. As I said in my report, I collected the briefcase because I was on the colonists side, I didn’t want him punished for being so heavily armed. But he decided to to aim a rifle in my face. That is, as I am so frequently reminded by staff, tantamount to pulling the trigger.
Your ability to not always uphold the law does not allow you to just say nah not my problem let someone else deal with it, you would never get to your position if you behaved like that.
I tried to talk nicely with the colonist to give my reasonings but I would rather not have been killed. Knowing he may well have got away with murder had I been, I’m even mike glad to have survived.
Armed personnel on the ship are exactly what your job is about.
Searching survivors to prevent this is just short of mandatory. As I said in my report, I collected the briefcase because I was on the colonists side, I didn’t want him punished for being so heavily armed. But he decided to to aim a rifle in my face. That is, as I am so frequently reminded by staff, tantamount to pulling the trigger.
Your ability to not always uphold the law does not allow you to just say nah not my problem let someone else deal with it, you would never get to your position if you behaved like that.
I tried to talk nicely with the colonist to give my reasonings but I would rather not have been killed. Knowing he may well have got away with murder had I been, I’m even mike glad to have survived.
► Show Spoiler
► Show Spoiler
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Abra_killing
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Re: Staff Report: Blade2000br
@forest2001
I'll explain for a dozenth time.
Step 0: Keep getting bwoinked and interrogated for every little thing
Step 1: Walk from brig to alamo
Step 2: See a colonist and CL with beef against each other
Step 3: Colonist is calm and reasonable and wants to leave the ship, CL is a total dick to MP's and CMP
Step 4: Allow colonist to leave to end the conflict because there is no smoking gun or a corpse and it's one word against another in a confusing mess
Step 5: CL keeps being a dick, attempt arrest and CL runs
Step 6: Catch CL, MP gets pepper sprayed by CE, spend next 20 minutes hunting down the CE
Step 7: Keep getting bwoinked and interrogated for every little thing
Imagine the following: You sail with your military boat and pick up some wounded after a hurricane. One local guy ends up doing something that is illegal in your home country and thus on your boat. He's on the boat to get a health check and is about to leave.
In a lot of places it is perfectly legal to shoot a person stealing from you. Do you REALLY want to create a fuss regarding temporary guests or do you simply toss them off the ship and forget the incident ever happened?
Hint: What happens to Somali pirates doing pirate stuff when nobody got harmed and no damage was done? They get released because it's a diplomatic nightmare if they detain them.
If you don't want the CMP and MP's having this discretion and roleplaying then simply erase those 2 lines from the server rules and marine law.
As of 2018-07-02 those lines are there. It's not the old rules or old marine law anymore.
I'll explain for a dozenth time.
Step 0: Keep getting bwoinked and interrogated for every little thing
Step 1: Walk from brig to alamo
Step 2: See a colonist and CL with beef against each other
Step 3: Colonist is calm and reasonable and wants to leave the ship, CL is a total dick to MP's and CMP
Step 4: Allow colonist to leave to end the conflict because there is no smoking gun or a corpse and it's one word against another in a confusing mess
Step 5: CL keeps being a dick, attempt arrest and CL runs
Step 6: Catch CL, MP gets pepper sprayed by CE, spend next 20 minutes hunting down the CE
Step 7: Keep getting bwoinked and interrogated for every little thing
Imagine the following: You sail with your military boat and pick up some wounded after a hurricane. One local guy ends up doing something that is illegal in your home country and thus on your boat. He's on the boat to get a health check and is about to leave.
In a lot of places it is perfectly legal to shoot a person stealing from you. Do you REALLY want to create a fuss regarding temporary guests or do you simply toss them off the ship and forget the incident ever happened?
Hint: What happens to Somali pirates doing pirate stuff when nobody got harmed and no damage was done? They get released because it's a diplomatic nightmare if they detain them.
If you don't want the CMP and MP's having this discretion and roleplaying then simply erase those 2 lines from the server rules and marine law.
As of 2018-07-02 those lines are there. It's not the old rules or old marine law anymore.
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TexasTwoStep
- Registered user
- Posts: 135
- Joined: 14 Apr 2017, 13:13
- Location: Texas
- Byond: TexasTwoStep
Re: Staff Report: Blade2000br
Rules from the Rules Page regarding MP's:
"Military Police - All Military Police jobs can never break Marine Law themselves, but they are not required to enforce Marine Law 100% of the time unless ordered by a superior."
You can never break marine law yourself BUT you don't have to enforce it 100 percent of the time. So, how do we describe how much precentage you DO have to enforce it?
You said yourself that the Chief MP / Warrant Officer is the HIGHEST Law Enforcement Official in any Battlefield AO (area of operations), so that being said unless the Provosot Marshal steps in - they should be the most Responsible and receptive to enforcement of the law?
>Play Your Role.
"Act like your given role - We’ve all seen the movies or played the games."
You are the Chief Military Police Officer aboard a Military Vessel engaged in Combat with Unknown Alien entities and a Survivor comes aboard the USS Almayer, assaults one of your crew with a Weapon (by definition in Marine Law) then tries to go back down to the surface. First of all if we want to bring up Roleplay - the safety of a Civilian with little combat experience when the big gay marines are deployed? Secondly, he assaulted one of your crewmembers with a unauthorized weapon then proceeded to go back down the surface. CL's job is to be a paperwork pusher, a weapon was pointed at him and you refused to do anything but also you failed to investigate it and are now letting his Assaulter go back down to the surface where there is more chaos.
Neglect of Duty> Failure to perform their role to an acceptable standard. For example, a Commander failing to properly organize and ensure his personnel are given orders. Failing to follow proper procedures is also considered Neglect of Duty. Any officer who commits a crime may be charged with Neglect of Duty.
Neglect of Duty = Rule break but also the Rules say you don't have to enforce it one-hundred percent of the time.
This is one of those Supreme Court Cases that get the rules change because I do agree there is a bit of a gaping hole. The reason why common sense application of the rules not only sees this as unfavorable (you literally let a criminal go back down to the surface of a alien planet where it's not safe for them and then you arrest the CL, i'd be saltified as well.)
I know Marine Law quite well and the Rules aswell, but these are one of those situations that the RIGHT common sense thing in many aspects.
"Military Police - All Military Police jobs can never break Marine Law themselves, but they are not required to enforce Marine Law 100% of the time unless ordered by a superior."
You can never break marine law yourself BUT you don't have to enforce it 100 percent of the time. So, how do we describe how much precentage you DO have to enforce it?
You said yourself that the Chief MP / Warrant Officer is the HIGHEST Law Enforcement Official in any Battlefield AO (area of operations), so that being said unless the Provosot Marshal steps in - they should be the most Responsible and receptive to enforcement of the law?
>Play Your Role.
"Act like your given role - We’ve all seen the movies or played the games."
You are the Chief Military Police Officer aboard a Military Vessel engaged in Combat with Unknown Alien entities and a Survivor comes aboard the USS Almayer, assaults one of your crew with a Weapon (by definition in Marine Law) then tries to go back down to the surface. First of all if we want to bring up Roleplay - the safety of a Civilian with little combat experience when the big gay marines are deployed? Secondly, he assaulted one of your crewmembers with a unauthorized weapon then proceeded to go back down the surface. CL's job is to be a paperwork pusher, a weapon was pointed at him and you refused to do anything but also you failed to investigate it and are now letting his Assaulter go back down to the surface where there is more chaos.
Neglect of Duty> Failure to perform their role to an acceptable standard. For example, a Commander failing to properly organize and ensure his personnel are given orders. Failing to follow proper procedures is also considered Neglect of Duty. Any officer who commits a crime may be charged with Neglect of Duty.
Neglect of Duty = Rule break but also the Rules say you don't have to enforce it one-hundred percent of the time.
This is one of those Supreme Court Cases that get the rules change because I do agree there is a bit of a gaping hole. The reason why common sense application of the rules not only sees this as unfavorable (you literally let a criminal go back down to the surface of a alien planet where it's not safe for them and then you arrest the CL, i'd be saltified as well.)
I know Marine Law quite well and the Rules aswell, but these are one of those situations that the RIGHT common sense thing in many aspects.
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Abra_killing
- Registered user
- Posts: 7
- Joined: 02 Jul 2018, 18:47
- Byond: Abra_killing
Re: Staff Report: Blade2000br
@TexasTwoStep
Insurgents get to shoot their RPG at a military convoys and get to walk away.
Pirates get to attempt to hijack a vessel, get intercepted and they get released.
They literally attempt to murder but since they FAILED and nobody got hurt, they are not worth dealing with.
You can commit crimes in any country and often you'll be deemed a persona non grata and allowed to leave and never return just to save on court costs and the overall hassle.
MP's are not Judge Dredd. Arresting someone is not the same as delivering a prison sentence or executing justice. There is a reason why security records get updated, there is going to be a tribunal with lawyers and actual judges for more serious shenanigans back on Earth. MP's have bigger things like "don't let the marines murder each other and civilians" to worry about. A colonist pulling a gun at the CL for stealing his things without actually harming anyone would be a nice thing to investigate if the op wasn't falling apart due to shenanigans. Except it was a total shitshow and beef between two civilians where nobody got hurt is at the bottom of the priority list. A colonist being jumpy with his last possessions after his entire planet getting eaten by aliens is a pretty damn reasonable and natural human reaction. If he stayed on the ship he would have gotten punished and his weapons stripped but since he wanted to leave, it was deemed that it's easier for everyone if the problem solves itself and the CL sends a fax and sues him in civil court or whatever.
You're forgetting that it is a ROLEPLAYING server. MP's are not robots, laws have loopholes and so on. The fact that most MP's and CMP's go for everyone and everything doesn't mean I have to go for everyone and everything. Marines and ensigns throwing a punch at round start got booked for hooliganism because 5 minutes is better than 15 minutes for assault. Staff officer got to run 5 laps around the CIC as NJP for interfering with an arrest instead of dragging him down to the brig for a 5 minute sentence. Colonist was allowed to leave back to the planet to continue roleplaying instead of sitting for 20 minutes in the brig and staring at the timer.
It's not the Gestapo and Judge Dredd crossover that we are running here, the point isn't to be evil and arrest as many people as possible for as long as possible.
If you do not want MP's to have the ability to overlook certain shenanigans and solve problems diplomatically (instead of automatically brigging everyone and everything to stare at a timer) then remove the server rule and the marine law part. I think these kind of situations is the precise reason that rule and law exists so that roleplay can happen. NJP's were also added for more roleplay and less staring at a timer for 10 minutes.
Insurgents get to shoot their RPG at a military convoys and get to walk away.
Pirates get to attempt to hijack a vessel, get intercepted and they get released.
They literally attempt to murder but since they FAILED and nobody got hurt, they are not worth dealing with.
You can commit crimes in any country and often you'll be deemed a persona non grata and allowed to leave and never return just to save on court costs and the overall hassle.
MP's are not Judge Dredd. Arresting someone is not the same as delivering a prison sentence or executing justice. There is a reason why security records get updated, there is going to be a tribunal with lawyers and actual judges for more serious shenanigans back on Earth. MP's have bigger things like "don't let the marines murder each other and civilians" to worry about. A colonist pulling a gun at the CL for stealing his things without actually harming anyone would be a nice thing to investigate if the op wasn't falling apart due to shenanigans. Except it was a total shitshow and beef between two civilians where nobody got hurt is at the bottom of the priority list. A colonist being jumpy with his last possessions after his entire planet getting eaten by aliens is a pretty damn reasonable and natural human reaction. If he stayed on the ship he would have gotten punished and his weapons stripped but since he wanted to leave, it was deemed that it's easier for everyone if the problem solves itself and the CL sends a fax and sues him in civil court or whatever.
You're forgetting that it is a ROLEPLAYING server. MP's are not robots, laws have loopholes and so on. The fact that most MP's and CMP's go for everyone and everything doesn't mean I have to go for everyone and everything. Marines and ensigns throwing a punch at round start got booked for hooliganism because 5 minutes is better than 15 minutes for assault. Staff officer got to run 5 laps around the CIC as NJP for interfering with an arrest instead of dragging him down to the brig for a 5 minute sentence. Colonist was allowed to leave back to the planet to continue roleplaying instead of sitting for 20 minutes in the brig and staring at the timer.
It's not the Gestapo and Judge Dredd crossover that we are running here, the point isn't to be evil and arrest as many people as possible for as long as possible.
If you do not want MP's to have the ability to overlook certain shenanigans and solve problems diplomatically (instead of automatically brigging everyone and everything to stare at a timer) then remove the server rule and the marine law part. I think these kind of situations is the precise reason that rule and law exists so that roleplay can happen. NJP's were also added for more roleplay and less staring at a timer for 10 minutes.
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Blade2000Br
- Registered user
- Posts: 730
- Joined: 12 Jun 2017, 14:09
- Byond: blade2000br
Re: Staff Report: Blade2000br
Ok, I will be brief on my answer and why I banned you.
The ban was because you insulted me. Basically.
I didn't banned you because the way you CMPed, or the actions you took against the CL and Survivor, it was because of the "fuck off" that I honestly didn't appreciate. You even ahelped for all the staff team that I am a bad moderator.
I am just a volunteer. I take some hours of my free time to moderate this game because I enjoy it and want people to enjoy as well. So honestly, I don't have to put up with this aggressive behavior aimed towards me just because I am investigating your case.
What you did, in my eyes, was clearly neglect of duty. You let an armed survivor wander around the ship, not even knowing he was doing in the first place, and let him hold an CL, someone you have obligation to protect as he was part of the crew, at gunpoint. Now, because of the law and rules changes, this fell into a grey area. I never intended to punish you for letting the survivor go and arresting the CL for theft. I obviously disagreed with your take on things, but I wouldn't punish you when there's clearly a hole in the entire ordeal. The max I thought doing was giving you a note for neglecting your duty, but even then it was iffy for me. So I opted for the second thing msay discussed: make an HC fax about just freeing both the CL, the survivor and whoever was caught in the middle of any charges since both of then committed crimes.
And I did fax as HC about just dropping the charges against the CL and the CE who was in perma because of this ordeal. In my conception, if I was in your situation, I would have either freed both of then or brigged both of them. Since CMPs have authority over the survivors that board Almayer and over the AO (Area of Operations), hence why you can deploy MPs to the FOB to arrest marines.
To reiterate, I disagreed with your actions, but the ban was not done because of that. The ban was placed because of your insults towards me.
The ban was because you insulted me. Basically.
I didn't banned you because the way you CMPed, or the actions you took against the CL and Survivor, it was because of the "fuck off" that I honestly didn't appreciate. You even ahelped for all the staff team that I am a bad moderator.
I am just a volunteer. I take some hours of my free time to moderate this game because I enjoy it and want people to enjoy as well. So honestly, I don't have to put up with this aggressive behavior aimed towards me just because I am investigating your case.
What you did, in my eyes, was clearly neglect of duty. You let an armed survivor wander around the ship, not even knowing he was doing in the first place, and let him hold an CL, someone you have obligation to protect as he was part of the crew, at gunpoint. Now, because of the law and rules changes, this fell into a grey area. I never intended to punish you for letting the survivor go and arresting the CL for theft. I obviously disagreed with your take on things, but I wouldn't punish you when there's clearly a hole in the entire ordeal. The max I thought doing was giving you a note for neglecting your duty, but even then it was iffy for me. So I opted for the second thing msay discussed: make an HC fax about just freeing both the CL, the survivor and whoever was caught in the middle of any charges since both of then committed crimes.
And I did fax as HC about just dropping the charges against the CL and the CE who was in perma because of this ordeal. In my conception, if I was in your situation, I would have either freed both of then or brigged both of them. Since CMPs have authority over the survivors that board Almayer and over the AO (Area of Operations), hence why you can deploy MPs to the FOB to arrest marines.
To reiterate, I disagreed with your actions, but the ban was not done because of that. The ban was placed because of your insults towards me.
Jason 'Punk' Crowmel - The guy that don't give a shit about what he does.
Former Rapey Ravager Hater.
Former Rapey Ravager Hater.
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solidfury7
- Registered user
- Posts: 737
- Joined: 28 Jul 2016, 20:54
Re: Staff Report: Blade2000br
You told someone who was volunteering their free time to ensure the server runs smoothly to fuck off, while they stayed polite through the interaction, you then proceeded to misuse the admin help system to insult him again.
Then you proceed to make a false report claiming it was for another reason, because you received a lenient ban.
I am surprised it hasn't been increased already.
Oh and the fact youre comparing the extremely complex situation regarding Somali pirates with your situation just shows how out of touch you are. Its dumb and you're clutching at straws.
Then you proceed to make a false report claiming it was for another reason, because you received a lenient ban.
I am surprised it hasn't been increased already.
Oh and the fact youre comparing the extremely complex situation regarding Somali pirates with your situation just shows how out of touch you are. Its dumb and you're clutching at straws.
Character
William 'Jester' Crimson
Roles
CMP
Captain
Staff Officer
William 'Jester' Crimson
Roles
CMP
Captain
Staff Officer
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slc97
- Vice Host
- Posts: 1004
- Joined: 21 Jul 2016, 11:48
- Location: Florida
Re: Staff Report: Blade2000br
What I see in this entire report is Blade trying to understand what happened to see if there is a major situation where he needs to step in and really handle something or leave it IC. This is a common thing we do. We may see something going down or get an ahelp and stop to assess whether we can let it go or not. You decided to be uncooperative and tell him to fuck off and tell him he's fucking terrible. You don't get to do that. I don't pay these people, so they don't have to put up with your bullshit.
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