Staff Report : Oprayx73

Kesserline · Post by **Kesserline** » 12 Dec 2018, 16:29

Your Byond Key: JeanManche

Your Character Name: Mark 'Echo' Kesserline

Their Byond key: Oprayx73

Approximate time and date of the incident (Central Us Time for best results): The previous round, LV

Which Staff Protocols (http://www.colonial-marines.com/viewtop ... =57&t=5647) were broken: Protocole 5 and 6

Description of the incident:
Was medic, Delta.

Encountered Critted XO Viperious Delamoure in the caves. An Alpha marine dragging him.
Alpha marine told me to heal him. I denied the XO treatment because I knew the player being bad, being a burden, and that I would prefer following the frontline which was only 10 meters to North East, with a push of a dozen marines.
Bravo medic took care of him 10 seconds later. And I was able to rescue 2 alpha marines from a permanent death.

Moderator comes on me by asking me why I denied him treatment. I answered him that Viperious was bad and a burden. (I should have added that I prefered following the frontline during a push)

Moderator enforced "Powergaming" rule on me, saying that "Skills and RP background are not applied"
Also enforced "Metagaming" rule while I acted upon knowledge of Viperous Delamoure's reputation and gained IC advantage from the marine playerbase by "sacrificing" Viperious to rescue 2 other marines.

As an answer to those facts :
- Powergaming subject : "Skills" and "RP background" are used on that rule to avoid people saying "I was a surgeon in my previous career. So I know how to make surgery."
It's rule that is enforced to perform unrealistic behavior accorded to irrelevant roles (marines being super heroes able to heal/treat/repair anything), it's also a rule enforced to avoid behavior that enhance maximum efficiency at the cost of realism and RP.

It wasn't the case. I don't like the lad, his reputation is shared by many other players. If a medic has to treat a dude, it takes 30 to 60 seconds. While marines were on a solid push across the caves. I couldn't spare 30 to 60 seconds on a dude not worthy of it, and especially being able to follow said push and rescue 2 marines by doing so.

- Metagaming subjet : Metagaming and metacomming rules are enforced to avoid exploiting IC advantage out of OOC information (Viperious bad rep). Moderator stated that I exploited an IC advantage for the marine playerbase by rescuing 2 marines. The only IC advantage I see is that 2 marines weren't permanently removed from the round, as they choked into an acid cloud.

- The only thing I could be accused of is metagrudging towards Viperious. Though, the lad was being taken cared of by a bravo medic 10 seconds later. Also, small parethesis said Viperious permakilled 2 players in an improper escalation 20 minutes after this event. The outcome was mild because of the Bravo medic treating said player 10 seconds after my depature, and triage point being only at 40 meterswest of current position and being cleared because the marines push, and the alpha marine dragging him.

Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc): Logs.

How you would punish the accused: As he applied a 3 hours banned, based on a previous note that I deny also for being a misuse of the metacomming rule. I would like that Mod gets a serious training about the correct use of Powergaming and Metagaming rules. The only thing it could be said was metagrude, not powergame nor metagame. (Also, I would like him to be force-fed 10 tofurkey at his next roundstart)

oprayx73 · Post by **oprayx73** » 12 Dec 2018, 16:56

We'll start off by analyzing the definition of rule 5 & 6, even though your ban was based on rule 6 alone (along with your notes that describe you breaking rule 6)

Rule 6. Acting upon knowledge your character does not have or communicating information about the current round, including but not limited to private discussions, chat rooms, and voice chats during the game.

Your Character, Mark Kesserline, does not know and has not witnessed the XO's poor performance (as you describe it, and is entirely arbitrary in and of itself) in an IC capacity.
Therefore, there is absolutely no way you can mark him off as incapable and "useless, a burden" if you literally don't know he's underperforming.

Your excuse for this was;

Your own words: "Reputation is meta , and it's tolerated."

Doublechecking off rule 6, you acted upon knowledge your character doesn't have. You admitted to it as well, and in other staff reports too.

You also kept double backing to the fact you "Saved two marines from death instead of one XO" which from a rules standpoint doesn't matter, doesn't
absolve you from guilt, and on the contrary it's a tiny bit low-rp to ignore your highly superior officer with complete disregard for their health/safety. BUT, that's unrelated.

Again, i didn't make the ban off of rule 5, your ban description tells you so aswell, but i'll give you an analysis because it seems you got it a little misinterpreted.

Rule 5. No powergaming - Powergaming includes performing actions outside your assigned job or chosen character’s abilities. Your skills or RP background before the round do not matter.
"a standard marine with "a brother in Engineering" does not know how to hack an airlock. "

You, as delta squadron's medic, cannot use the XO's RP background or "skills" (or lack thereof) or your own to perform actions outside of your role.
It's a bit outside of your role to analyze people's RP background or skills, (or lack thereof) to deem worthy and unworthy. It teeters the line on rule 6. once you start
using it for things like preferential treatment, but when you start to cover it up with RP background or skills excuses, that's when 5 comes into play.

A core part that seems to be consistent with your staff reports and notes, is that metabuddying, preferential treatment is not acceptable.

Kesserline · Post by **Kesserline** » 12 Dec 2018, 18:15

Meaning of OOC. Out of Character.
It's not : Out of the round.

As my character got countless interactions with many other marines that earnt my deepest respects for being nice, selfless, funny, awesome, I have the right to remember them and base those interactions to greet every friendly player like I knew them before the round, rather than discovering them every single round.

Reputations go both ways. They can be good, and you can have many friendly interactions thanks to it. Or it can be bad, and you can be unable to perform certain RP interactions because of it.

I'm not hypocrite. I could have summoned 2 to 5 IC reasons to not heal that player. I decided to be honest and kept on acting like I would act : favoring a push and support the marines directly on the frontline with emergency treatment and focusing on dead marines timers. A guy, critted, with a bravo medic ready to treat him, and only 40 meters of the nearest triage center wasn't at all my priority.

Many rounds, I heard him saying when he was SL, after his way too often mistakes "I AM CAPTURED. PUSH AND SAVE ME." This round, I decided to save his men, instead of saving him.

There was a bravo medic nearby, it's not like I left him to die.

Enigmachine · Post by **Enigmachine** » 12 Dec 2018, 18:25

I was an MP this round and heard DeLamore's cry for help and crime report over command comms. I've also gotten Viperous' side of the story, who declines at time of writing to post on his own.

He knew IC that you refused to treat him and didn't understand why. Which, why would he? It makes no sense IC.

You not only deadpan refused to treat him over OOC knowledge of the player, your metabuddy Chatillon punched him soon after while he was going to this Bravo medic that keeps getting mentioned.

As a constant MP player, I often get calls about you. It's always the same; "Mark Kesserline suddenly beat me/defied orders and I haven't a clue why." So to me it looks like you bully and/or usurp anyone who you OOC judge is between you and min-maxing the round.

oprayx73 · Post by **oprayx73** » 12 Dec 2018, 18:36

Kesserline wrote: ↑
12 Dec 2018, 18:15
Meaning of OOC. Out of Character.
It's not : Out of the round.

As my character got countless interactions with many other marines that earnt my deepest respects for being nice, selfless, funny, awesome, I have the right to remember them and base those interactions to greet every friendly player like I knew them before the round, rather than discovering them every single round.

Reputations go both ways. They can be good, and you can have many friendly interactions thanks to it. Or it can be bad, and you can be unable to perform certain RP interactions because of it.

I'm not hypocrite. I could have summoned 2 to 5 IC reasons to not heal that player. I decided to be honest and kept on acting like I would act : favoring a push and support the marines directly on the frontline with emergency treatment and focusing on dead marines timers. A guy, critted, with a bravo medic ready to treat him, and only 40 meters of the nearest triage center wasn't at all my priority.

Many rounds, I heard him saying when he was SL, after his way too often mistakes "I AM CAPTURED. PUSH AND SAVE ME." This round, I decided to save his men, instead of saving him.

There was a bravo medic nearby, it's not like I left him to die.

Here's a nice excerpt from rule 2 that basically denies any of that.

2. Roleplay - CM-SS13 is intended to be a Medium Roleplay server. Play a reasonably realistic character. Treat your character as a separate entity from you, the player. Your character's actions, feelings, and knowledge in-game should be based solely on the character's experiences and not your own as the player. Each round is a fresh start with no knowledge of the previous one carrying over. This rule may be ignored in some game modes such as Whiskey Outpost and other “Survival”-type maps that pit escaping marines against waves of enemies. Follow the Roleplay Standards.

Each round is a fresh start with no knowledge of the previous one carrying over.

There's no "building up" of a reputation or anything like that. There is no excuse for you to metagrudge him, and there's no excuse for you to metafriend with other people.
You don't have the right to remember your past interactions; especially in such a manner as to give preferential treatment.

Instead of trying to "summon ic reasons to not heal them" you also just told me the truth that you OOCly disliked them over basically personal reasons,
and metagrudged them for it. I'm sort of glad you told me the truth. Isn't the other option lying in ahelps?

It also simply isn't fair and it's teetering the rule 3. clause aswell. Don't you think it's a dick move to outright ignore a guy because you don't think he's good?
You also don't seem to understand- what if everyone played like you do? the RO handpicks his favorites he arbitrarily believes on his own accord are the best to get the best gear-
the CO gives squads with people he arbitrarily thinks are the best the most important tasks- there's no limiting factor. Your gameplay style infringes the rules with metagrudging and metafriending behavior.

It doesn't matter someone was there to try mend the IC ramifications of your rulebreaking either. What would you have done, second guessed yourself if someone wasn't there to save him? According to your consistent testimony that "people you dislike in other rounds don't deserve your assistance in future rounds" leads me to believe there's little leeway there.

Don't split hairs with the definition of OOC and IC either. it's plain and simple: if you didn't speak or hear it ingame that VERY round, your character doesn't know anything about it.

Kesserline · Post by **Kesserline** » 12 Dec 2018, 18:47

For Chatillon, I didn't know. I was out of sight and I was focused on the push that was currently happening.

I got brigged about 10 times out of hundreds of rounds. It is surprising me that you heard that often of me.

I do not bully nor usurp anyone I OOC judge between min-maxing the round, otherwise, I would bully a lot of baldies. And I usually use them as force multiplier at best, or decoy/human-shields at worst.

I consider that a round is about 1 to 3 hours. If I die, I have to die between 1 and 3 hours to get to play the next round. So, I enjoy my playtime, I enjoy it by not caring about things that I don't like. Not liking FOB duty, not liking to stop my push because I have to help someone I dislike while I can help more people and be more helpful somewhere else while there is no need for me specifically to help that person while a bravo medic is there.

___________________________

Reputation exists. Metafriendship exists too, this is a multiplayer game. Do you require all players to discover each other at the beginning of each round ? Do you ask to Murry : "Hello, my name is Boris Bourbon. Who are you?"

Also, everything you describe already happens in-game on a daily basis.

Bravo medic was there, triage center point was only 40 meters west cleared of hostiles because of the push I was following/supporting.
There is no point for me to deny a dozen of marines of having a proper medic on their push, just to double treat a lad with another medic within screen.

oprayx73 · Post by **oprayx73** » 12 Dec 2018, 18:59

The "bravo medic" there to fix what you messed up after you confessed to breaking the rules isn't a silver bullet makes,in your own words, "ignoring someone medical treatment because you dislike them"(a highly superior officer in that matter) ok. Your notes and witness testimony seem to add up you do this kind of thing often.

Here's an example- I decide to steal from someone i dislike from past rounds, right in front of an MP. the MP fixes the problem, but i still acted upon OOC knowledge in a bad manner.
Another- I decide to outright deny a PFC in the Requisitions line all and everything, providing little to no reason, I leave and the RO handles it and gives him his stuff, and then afterward i give my best metafriend a barrelcharger right after. like, what? where do we draw the line? rule 2 and 6 define that pretty well.

No using past rounds and OOC info to determine your choices, which you admitted to in ahelps to be the reason you did it.
Unless you want to change your reason and basically out yourself as being dishonest in ahelps?

Kesserline · Post by **Kesserline** » 12 Dec 2018, 19:05

Stealing something from someone is basic griefing, in my opinion. Looting is greyzone, but meh too.
You actively act against another player.

Only thing I did was not acting towards said player.

For the rest, it seems that you do not see what happens every single round regarding reputation and what lies around and across it.

I will restrain myself to further comments and await other interlocutors to come by, as the discussion right now is circling.

Solarmare · Post by **Solarmare** » 12 Dec 2018, 20:10

2. Do NOT post in an complaint if you are not contributing as a witness.
3 posts have been deleted so far over it, managers will give the decision on this when they get to it.
Don't post unless you saw the events yourself and want to add to it as the rule allows.

starmute · Post by **starmute** » 12 Dec 2018, 20:55

Logs

Initial problem

► Show Spoiler

Admin interaction

► Show Spoiler

BillyBoBBizWorth · Post by **BillyBoBBizWorth** » 13 Dec 2018, 00:26

POSTING AS CHARACTER WITNESS :

This is getting pathetic admins(infact way past pathetic), i reported this player doing exactly this same thing on the 20 Jul 2018, 07:02, but a far worse example of it, right here infact : viewtopic.php?f=64&t=18036&p=211630#p211630

He not only murdered a marine like he was a CO with BE power's but also insisted, ORDERED other players which were medics not to treat them, AND THEY DIDNT TREAT AND THE PLAYER WAS REMOVED FROM THE ROUND.Just one players actions, this player in question, which is now actually attempting at reversing it on the admin who has witnessed him doing it ONCE AGAIN, the most recent example of this, like hes not the one guilty here.

Not only are you a blatant rule breaker even till this day, even with all of your skills and gametime, but also a blatant metabuddier and liar too.

And by the end of it i got called salty by a admin, and this is just another example of why it had nothing to do with salt and everything to do with FACTS and OBSERVATION.

SOMETHING ADMINS SHOULD BE DOING MORE OF, ITS YOUR JOB, ISNT IT?

If you continue to delete peoples examples of this player doing this admins, ill post it in the general section like i did last time so more people read about it.

Kesserline · Post by **Kesserline** » 13 Dec 2018, 02:53

Your participation is irrelevant due to :

On that specific round, the lad improper escalated me and I answered with a perma kill, which got me a warning.

Had I not perma killed and just killed him, he would have been directly punished and me a healed.

Here, I just decide to ignore a player, because I dislike the dude and I prefered supporting marines. Imagine, I wouldn't have said "No, not him", even with the same reasons, it would have been impossible for any staff to act against me.

I could have just been silent, or I could have sweet ODed him and pretend it would have been a mistake many things. I just decided that I didn't care of the spcific player on a multi-player game.

Kesserline · Post by **Kesserline** » 13 Dec 2018, 08:39

After deep reflection and indeed, by reading all these arguments after a night of a sleep :

I totally accept the enforcing of the metagaming rule, by metagrudging.

As a parenthesis, I never wanted any other sanction to be applied to Oprayx other than the clarification of Powergame and Metagame rules. As per logs, only the Metagame rule was to be enforced. The lad is just doing an unpaid job, doing a mistake (which wasn't the case as stated above) wouldn't lead to a sanction other than just an explaination of rules concerned.

I hope I didn't sound salty, nor pretentious about any things I said. I was just misunderstanding that metagrudge would be a subcategory from metagaming. No hard feelings or anything, you were doing your job, and as I was wrong, you were doing it good.

I thank you for the time you put into answering me and by the way, explaining me how I was wrong, both ingame and here on the forums.

On a positive note, the subject in itself of the reputation needs to be explored in a deeper way. Oprayx statements underlines the absence of reputation and preferential treatment, while those two elements are present at every round via :
- Static named marines in leadership positions have more chance to be followed/obeyed according to their (positive) reputation
- Static named marines have more chance to receive any desired equipment from Requisition
- Static named marines with good rep have already priority treatment during triage for many medics
- Many marines will only risk their lives to rescue marines they favorite

Those are facts that existed since the very day I arrived on CM (can't testimony about before, because I wasn't there before). Stating that everything in a round stay in said round is false due to the simple fact that marines know each other at the beginning of the rounds and can grow relationships that stay across rounds.

oprayx73 · Post by **oprayx73** » 13 Dec 2018, 17:01

I agree that the rules should perhaps take a better and more direct treatment of this kind of behavior. I basically did a by-the-book ruling even though, like you say, preferential treatmnet/reputation DOES build up on the server minorly in many facets of the game in many rounds- it's definitely not absent. The fact of the matter still is that i do have to enforce that. I would like to see either a compromise or outright cutting off of that type of behavior, or accepting a small amount for the betterment of the gameplay flow. As of right now, none of those options i have mentioned are really nailed down officially as far as i can tell.

TL:DR, either we persecute everyone who inhibits this kind of stuff even mildly, or let it grow wild. Or do a case-by-case basis on what's too much of a detriment to the game. On the latter, i judged with our current ruleset it was too much of a detriment.

I also appreciate your respectful posts and modicum of conduct, thank you for that.

Post by **NGGJamie** » 19 Dec 2018, 18:43

Closed

Complainant retracted.

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