Alex Graves: disobeying orders, unauthorized mutiny

[Dyne]

Your Byond Key: Dyne667

Your character name: Natalie "Snow" Reyes

Their character name: Alex Graves

Their Byond key (optional - if you know it): UnknownMurder

Approximate time and date of the incident (Central US Time for fastest results): 21:10 Monday, 16 November 2015

What rule(s) were broken: Marine-specific mutiny rules, IC in LOOC.

Description of the incident: Engineer Graves squad has set up around five sentry guns in the security part of the Nexus.
Orders to move the guns to LZ1 (given by radio and in person) were blatantly ignored.

As defenses were crumbling CO went planetside, leaving XO in charge. After overseeing wounded evacuation and doing some damage to the aliens CO moved to the security part, ordering to prepare to move the guns. This order was not followed by present Eng Alex Graves.

CO gave an order to the MP to arrest the engineer, on failing to deal with an engineer herself (by attempted pushing).
MP in question proceeded to explode a grenade, killing himself and wounding the CO.
CO was deafened in the result of the explosion, proceeded to administer first aid on her bleeding parts.

Alex Graves and company went out to LZ, then came back,
flashed the CO, cuffed her, took her ID, and eventually took her headset and locked her in a locker, leading to an eventual death by vacuum/aliens.

The situation was a-helped two times, as shown in the log, no answer from the staff was received.

Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc):
Link to the full log, so the whole development can be seen: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xa1y3vdupv350 ... 9.htm?dl=0

How you would punish the accused:
Strict warning to UnknownMurder, unless the player has a history of such behaviour, in which case admins maybe should apply harsher measures.
A warning for abusing LOOC as a ghost to Dragon2323.
A warning for IC in LOOC communication to Saigon Sam, another marine involved in the incident.

[SecretStamos (Joshuu)]

I'm shocked I wasn't somehow aware of the situation as I was on the server according to the logs.

It strikes me as very suspicious that UM thought it necessary to remove the CO's headset. That definitely seems like a clear crossing into mutiny. Since Blackdragon or I (the two staff present at the time) weren't alerted by UM and his mutineers about their arrest of the CO, I think this is pretty clearly a violation.

Alex Graves says, "You're LEAVING with us."
Alex Graves says, "You're our only Boss."

[UnknownMurder]

This is no mutiny. There was never mutiny. We only disobeyed orders and refused to leave until Emergency Shuttle. Several people were watching, several people called Natalie (no offense) a shitler.
Annabelle (Partner in Engineering)
Ian (Delta Leader)
Sam (Buddy)
Dragon (Spectator)
TeenGowen. (Spectator)

Now, why did I remove your headset is fairly obvious and was said in RP, you were going to make me look bad. I didn't arrest Commander, I'm a Maine, not a MP. She refused to be saved, so I restrained her and dragged her back to Shuttle.

Also, why didn't you report to Blackdragon or Joshuu that time rather spend more time on this.

You can see in the logs that I RISKED my life to save you through the fights. We brokes through the line of aliens. Sam and I.

MP did blow himself up. What did I do? Despite your complaints and aggressive action. I pushed aside my difference and tend to your wounds.

I didn't want to mention this but, XO was dead. You broke the rules by heading to the planet. I didn't report it, no. Why? Because, I am a good man, and I can see goodness out of you.

Why do you still hate me after I went through all my character's life to save you.

P.S. I didn't steal your ID and lock you in locker. Stop making me look bad. I did leave you in locker and DRAGGED you through alien's lines while you were in locker demanding to me released. However, you were still alive in pod on escape pod. You didn't tell them the full story, you're only taking bits out of it and cover it with how this is wrong.


You can see in the logs that I still remained supportive for the Commander. As I said, I ignored her insults and such hate comments toward to me and still went back and helped her. You were refusing to be saved. Someone suggested I just leave you. I'm not that person. Logs has story.

[Dyne]

Wikipedia tells us that "Mutiny is a criminal conspiracy among a group of people (typically members of the military; or the crew of any ship, even if they are civilians) to openly oppose, change, or overthrow a lawful authority to which they are subject. ".

I didn't want to mention this but, XO was dead. You broke the rules by heading to the planet. I didn't report it, no. Why? Because, I am a good man, and I can see goodness out of you.

XO was very much alive and responding when CO decided to land, as can be seen in the log, so I dont believe the rule was broken.

Why do you still hate me after I went through all my character's life to save you.

I dont hate you, or your character, but what you did, in my opinion, violated the spirit and the letter of the rules.

P.S. I didn't steal your ID and lock you in locker. Stop making me look bad. I did leave you in locker and DRAGGED you through alien's lines while you were in locker demanding to me released. However, you were still alive in pod on escape pod. You didn't tell them the full story, you're only taking bits out of it and cover it with how this is wrong.

I have put in the full log specifically so staff can have the full picture.
The locker in question WAS locked, nevertheless.

You can see in the logs that I still remained supportive for the Commander. As I said, I ignored her insults and such hate comments toward to me and still went back and helped her. You were refusing to be saved. Someone suggested I just leave you. I'm not that person. Logs has story.

Please get a direct quote from the logs of the "insult".
And yes, indeed, you came back, flashed, cuffed, took the ID from a Commander. Dooming her, yourself, and the rest of the marine defensive effort.

[UnknownMurder]

I gotta sleep soon, apologies for short post. I'm on mobile. Don't expect reply until tomorrow from me.

1. Wikipedia isn't credible. -shrugs-
2. I didn't hear XO talking, and someone said XO was dead.
3. Insult as threatening to arrest us, court martial us, and such while we are saving your life. Arabella tells you to quit being a bitch.
4. I like to point out Josh presenting a quote of my quote. There were no other leaders than you. Why did you think I didn't let you stay?
5. It's not mutiny when we are disobeying orders to save you. I give you choices if you wanted to live or die. You didn't respond, then I gave choices if you wanted to stay or leave. You decided to stay and endanger Sulaco to hostile threats.
6. We broke through alien's line of defense to escape pod. I and Sam were later ravaged while you were locked in locker SAFE until that carrier who dragged you out because you were banging on locker.
7. I went into critical and didn't have internals because Sam had internal and you were in close tight atmospheric, free of pressure I believe. I nearly died for you. Is this still unauthorized mutiny?

Or are you still pissed that I didn't follow your orders after ignoring your threats and OOC report threat. I don't care about your threats. I died saving you. That's something to think about.

EDIT: Just why would you refuse help from someone who was just forming a relation with you and ignoring the differences. I don't even know what's the big deal here.

[Dyne]

I think the points are quite clear, so staff can decide. Still, just to clear up my position, as your points deserve a response.

1. "Mutiny is a criminal conspiracy among a group of people (typically members of the military; or the crew of any ship, even if they are civilians) to openly oppose, change, or overthrow a lawful authority to which they are subject."

-Did you oppose lawful authority? Yes.
-Was there a conspiracy? Taking into account your fellow marine (Saigon Sam) went along with the hole flash/stun/cuff I'd say de-facto yes.

2. So you didnt "report" my potential breaking of the rules, but found it OK to mention it when your violation was put to the public eye- that makes you a pretty weak player in my eyes, please forgive if you take offense.

3. It wasnt an insult or threat. It was a logical warning, on you failing to comply with a direct lawful order three times. An insult would be CO calling your character bad words. Whoever and whatever tells who marines still have a chain of command, which you disregarded, broke, and crippled.

4. If you were "saving" the only leader one might think you wouldn't cripple this leaders ability to lead. Evidence points otherwise.

5. I do believe it is mutiny when you are openly opposing an active lawful authority, your "motives", however noble, do not matter.

6. Safe, as in an environment losing air, with no facemask and oxytank, cuffed, without an ID and a headset.

7. Your character dying makes you breaking the rules acceptable?

I gave you no threats in LOOC, simply warned you about the violation, and after you two started the comments in LOOC.

What worries me, personally, is you refuse to take any responsibility for your actions, which is consistent with some previous incidents your character was involved in, that you think it is normal to disregard chain of command blatantly, and that "dying" somehow makes you immune to rules.

At this note, I'll let staff handle it.

[SecretStamos (Joshuu)]

You feel your headset vibrate but can hear nothing from it!
LOOC: Fanatical believer: Meanwhile in the cool kids pot smoking closet.
Alex Graves has grabbed Natalie 'Snow' Reyes passively!
The blood has been hit by Alex Graves with the flash.
Saigon Sam fires the ÿM37 Pump Shotgun (Wielded)!
ÿTy Russell is hit by the shotgun slug in the head!
ÿYou hear a sickening cracking sound coming from Ty Russell's face.
ÿYou hear a loud cracking sound coming from Ty Russell.
Ty Russell seizes up and falls limp, their eyes dead and lifeless...

Anyone willing to shed some more light on this? Ty Russell is the MP that was sent to arrest Alex (UM) and (accidentally?) detonated a grenade, wounding himself and the CO?

Why did Saigon shoot and kill him after the blast? The logs don't offer a whole lot to explain what happened here.


Unknown, could you explain why you found it necessary to handcuff the CO in the first place? To me, that seems pretty clear like you're asserting yourself over the CO and her orders. The fact that you stripped her headset doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. What is the purpose of silencing her from the radio?

I'm getting the feeling you're not being entirely honest about your intentions.

[apophis775]

Yeah.

I feel like, this might be another case of UM going overboard (the reason he's banned from all the command things).

Ima assign one of the new Trialmins to this, see if they can sort it out and give me a summary.

[UnknownMurder]

Alright. Saigon Sam killed the MP for sabotaging the defense. I have no part in MP's death.
I opposed your authority to save you because you were refusing to leave the planet and endangering Sulaco.
I just said the purpose of silencing her radio, she was going to make me the 'bad guy' here while I am trying to save the Commander.
You were given a choice to either 'live or die' and decided not to respond. So, I assumed it was obvious you wanted to live.
Blackdragon was the Trialmin in this time.
MP didn't accidentally detonate a Grenade, he's just an idiot griefer who detonated grenade TWICE, and destroyed Sentry Gun, APC, as well as injured Commander. I took Commander to closet armory and fixed him up.
Each time you kept struggling not to be saved, a flash was applied until then I've had enough with your shit and cuffed you. It does seem to be mutiny, why it to be a mutiny when I am saving Commander, or did I decide to oppose Commander's authority wanting to stay on planet and die. Well, yes I did oppose to drag Commander out of pillbox. Marines were retreating during that time. Ian saw everything. Sam saw everything.


My intention? Saving the Commander. I died for Commander. Did you really not wanted to be saved? Or is it still considered act of mutiny to rescue our only Boss?

[Dyne]

I dont have the pics, but pretty sure no sentry gun was destroyed in that corner.
Also, to be clear- the first time you "refused my authority" is declining to move the sentry guns in questions, which, funnily, were left unattended in the end, as you and your merry band just noped into the bird and off the FOB.

[UnknownMurder]

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=739&p=45335#p45335

Do you see the Sentry Gun above APC and to the left of vending machine. That got destroyed by MP's self suicide grenade. At first, I thought it was you and MP sabotaging the pillbox. Apparently not, it was just MP's idiocy. What did I do? I fixed you up.

We left it, not only because of you, but because Ian didn't want to take It up with us. He's been calling count downs to when shuttle will leave.We needed to get back to Sulaco. There was a chance that we might have to return to Nexus if all else fails method.

[Dyne]

Yes, I see the picture, and the grenade exploded by the wall, or APC you mention wouldn't be damadged.
MP was by the wall, CO next to him one step towards the center of the room, so a sentry gun wasn't as much as scratched.

Also, please, you didnt fix "me" up one bit in reality, maybe only in your heroic fantasies. Log clearly shows what exactly you did after the explosion.

[UnknownMurder]

Alright. You think I am mutinying? Alright, we'll all assume that I'm mutinying. What but for what? Do I mutiny because it was fun? Just for what basis did I mutiny? I had insufficient people to begin with. I did not mutiny, I know this. I only declined your orders. Then, shit came up at Sulaco. Emergency Pods were ready. Sam wanted to leave you to die. I couldn't let this happen.

Why resist to be saved? Now that this said, I'll ask you another question, friend.
Why did I save you, why couldn't I just leave you for dead? If you didn't want to be saved, I'm sorry. That's not happening.

Since, I have the time. I'll make a quick perspective summary on my side.

Arabella and I finish creating a pillbox, BO praises us. Marines praises us. At first, I believed it was only for Charlie Squad, apparently it was for the entire marines. We had guns, we had helmets for the marines. Siserith was the only person who died in the pillbox other than MP. Shortly later, Arabelle left me in charge of modifying and reinforcing pillbox. Then, Arabelle was dead. Commander for some reason gets on planet, FOB was weakening. The pillbox was the FOB's backbone. Had the Pillbox fallen, then FOB will fall. We had storage, medication, helmets, sentry guns for all those who arrive to Pillbox. It was a fall back point. Now, this is where Commander walks in and demands all sentry guns to be removed and exported to Sulaco. Think critically, had the Sentry Guns removed and pillbox will fall. It has scared off two of the aliens. A Ravager group. Now, this is where my mistake comes in. No one has informed me what has happened in Sulaco, not even Commander even though I abandoned sentry guns. Escape Pod was called. Ian was making count downs (4 minutes). MP blows up grenade TWICE on himself. While I watched MP killing himself and wounding Commander. I take Commander to storage closet and had her fixed up. Sam was relying on me to do medication and bandaging. Commander gets up and treated herself as I treated her. Sam puts MP out of his misery. Commander now refuses to leave pillbox. She was given a choice whether to live or to die. She did not respond. But why? I leave to go get Ian and delay count down with Sam. I come back, wearing HUD Glasses, grabbing flash and handcuff from pillbox. Commander was restrained and taken to Sulaco for evacuation. Is this still considered mutiny? Ian later dies to atmospheric aliens caused. Sam and I take Commander to Prep Armory, stuffed her in the locker. So, aliens wouldn't grab the Commander. I and Sam break through the alien's line, the atmospheric was a tragic. Several people died to no air loss, I didn't have Oxygen tank, Sam did. Commander was safe in locker we brought her into escape pod and fortified it. Commander made the wrong move... She exposed herself to the drone alien, Sam shoved her back into the locker. Pods are finished refueling. 3 minutes until blast off. Queen, Ravager, Runner, and Carrier arrives for the final fight. I get face hugged then slashed to death by Ravager along with Sam. Commander made another wrong move. She was banging on the lockers and exposing herself to more aliens. Now, I realize. This is how Commander who nearly escaped, but kept making wrong choices. Carrier dragged the locker, Commander was in the locker, to space.

[Dyne]

Do I mutiny because it was fun?

The short answer is "yes".
Ofcourse it is fun to mutiny, to showcase your skill and power, to stick it up to authority, to save "a damsel in distress"(even if cuffs are involved, as the damsel somehow refuses rescuing), to show everyone who is boss.
You are still trying to do it, funnily.

What you fail to realize is there are rules, spoken and unspoken.
In my opinion you broke enough of both, but I am an involved side, so its for the neutral judges to actually decide.

[UnknownMurder]

You forgot two other questions, and misread first lines. We're just assuming it. Hypothetical assume.

[Dyne]

You forgot two other questions, and misread first lines. We're just assuming it. Hypothetical assume.

I am sorry, further responding to your heroic rambling wont add to the information the admins have at this point.
Please stop and let people investigate.

Here is a thought from me, though...
If you were in the right, and I was in the wrong, tactically- why did everyone on Sulako die, despite your pretty pillbox?
So what did your disobedience really lead to? What good did it do, but a dead MP and heating your ego? Who did your character save in the end?

Hold that thought.

[UnknownMurder]

I'll get to you soon, I'm currently not on computer.

[Dyne]

We two have nothing more to discuss, unless you are willing to provide any additional evidence, because so far your claims just don't stand up to the logs,
be it you blatantly lying about "fixing the CO", or grenade damaging sentry, or the parts you chose to ignore- like WHY did you take the headset and informed the dying ship " Alex Graves says, "This is Alex Graves, I have the Commander who is trying to kill himself."".

So please, dont do any more damage, unless you have real screenshots and logs that prove you in the right, rule-wise.

[TR-BlackDragon]

Hmm sorry about not responding to you ahelp it's possible I had crashed when it went threw. Not sure... now both of you please stop arguing with eachother. When I get home I will dive into the logs admins have access to and get to the bottom of this. I would also like to remind you both of sub rule 4 for this topic. For now your free to speak about the issue peacefully. I will state that dyne I did notice your character in the locker after the round was over I moved you out of the locker. Now I will do the investigation as I was the trialmin online during the time this occured

[Dyne]

Sure, sorry, Black, no harm done.

[TR-BlackDragon]

Yep I understand... also I think one of the others is investigating as well

[UnknownMurder]

Right, I'll be out of this thread until someone calls for me until then. The only thing I have is the testimony of the witnesses given and those in Dyne's logs. Commander was in the locker for her safety from aliens.

[Errant_aron]

Dayum, Dyne. Didn't think you'd actually be mad enough to report Alex. Now I didn't read the entire topic because frankly, reading a big wall of text isn't my thing, but I was Saigon Sam. One of the alleged 'mutineers' and I can tell you that Dyne was super dumb throughout this whole thing in game.

For the record, the MP was dragged in and treated for some wound by Alex. He stayed unconscious for a few mins and then woke up right around the time we and Dyne started arguing. Now as I can recall, it ended with the MP blowing himself up while stammering out something like 'ala' or something stupid- taking the sec vendor and one of our turrets with him (the one pointed towards the entrance to the pillbox) as well as hurting the Commander. Commander tries to make his way out, only to pass out right outside in the middle of open territory. So we drag him back in and patch him up. At which point the shuttle is called and it's time to bail. We go to bail, Commander basically stops responding both IC and OOC so we do the right thing and try to drag them out only to have him run back off into the pillbox and exclaim 'Im staying here! Go on with out me!' or something to that effect which honestly did not impress me as to the Commander's leadership skills (what is a Commander doing down in a combat zone anyways when the commander is dead?). Anyways, we get to the lander. People are wounded, people are dying, and LO AND BEHOLD there's no one in sight that can fly the damn ship. Means we need to go back and grab the Commander at least for their ID. Alex was going anyways, but I came for the ID to get the landrr off the ground and free us of any remaining stupidity (except we arrested the commander for being a wanker, dragged them to the ship and then went back to the Sulaco instead). Get to the ship and we get aliens. Commander gets to stay under arrest so we can keep them safe since obviously they can't maintain the required mental faculties to lead if they want to stay on the planet (where they shouldn't have been anyways) and die. Battle aliens, stuff Commander in a locker for added safety, and badda bing, badda boom, you've got a Commander who was analpained enough to post a ban request about something as stupid as this.

[Dyne]

Why in this wall of text of your own didnt you answer SecretStamos (Joshuu) question on why did you shoot the MP in the head with a shotgun?
Please do read before you post.

Also, just to be very clear, I am not mad, and I am not asking for any bans.
Still, this is a precedent establishing situation, and it is important enough to be investigated, which it will.

If you have any questions on tactics, leadership skill, or other issues, directly not related to the issue at hand- I will ask you to make a general topic in the relevant forum, thank you for understanding. I will gladly explain the reasoning behind all actions of my character during that fateful round.

[Errant_aron]

Oh yeah, you're right! I forgot to answer that. Thank you for reminding me. Ty was unconscious after detonating two grenades. He was actually pretty much did at that point because no one was going to treat him for all the sabotage he committed. So I shot him and ended his suffering. If you recall, he wasn't the only body we left there.