Report against Slc97

[Neray]

Your Byond Key: Neray

Your Character Name: PMC Esmeralda Cooper

Their Byond key: Slc97

Approximate time and date of the incident (Central Us Time for best results): ~09:00

Which Admin Protocols were broken: 2, 3, 5.

Description of the incident:
Alright, let's get going. I joined in ERT, turned out it was PMC and I rolled a sniper. Sully lost its lower deck to aliens, so after a quick briefing from a nearby marine we took defensive positions in briefing, canteen and evac corridor. Thanks to enemy boilers, evac area was lost, I retreated to canteen and continued forcing them back. Here I was looted by RO named John Hayter, who took my rifle and ran away in cryo sections. I yelled at him to stop, he ignored me and started shooting walls, wasting my last AP mag. I tried to catch him to take my rifle back, but he was running too fast, so after few minutes or running around and ahelping his actions (those were marked as "no-answer-needed" by Jdobbin49) and due to aliens already taking over east briefing, I had to shoot a bastard with my pistol in a groin and after that finally managed to get my rifle back. About 5 minutes later, when we were stuck between tables at main ladders, with queen roaring nearby, I got shot by John with a shotgun slug. Since I was lying stunned, that was clearly an aimed shot. After aliens finally finished me and I saw some salt about that guy's other actions in deadchat, I ahelped it again with something like "I hope John Hayter is getting something for his actions".

And here comes out Slc97, telling me that he just joined and isn't aware of situation. I gave him a quick story, after what he started claiming that I was a bad guy in it, violating Improper Escalation of force rule. Since I don't like false warnings being placed on my ass, I tried to reason him, describing my situation again. As answer for that, he stated that I was wrong anyway and banned me for 24 hours for pointless discussion.

So, let me sum it up again, just in case. W-Y Sniper got attacked by a crewmember (there even was a XO's annoucement about them helping marines out), who took his rifle (violating metagaming and griefing rules), ignored sniper's requests to give it back, ignored ahelps (from sniper's perspective he continued to run around shooting and wasting sniper's ammo). After 3 minutes sniper finally had enough of that (with one of his team members and few marines dying cause they lost cover from sniper rifle), shot a retarded person in a groin (most peaceful way) few times, lowering his speed, disarmed him and got back to fighting. After being shot to almost crit and seeing salt in a deadchat about that griefer, he ahelped it again and got banned for proper IC escalation.

My problems with Slc97 are next one:
1) Application of escalation rule in a first place, let me even quote it, though I never saw it being applied so hard to ERT teams:

► Show Spoiler

Lethal Force - This is defined as one marine purposefully using lethal weapons (guns, explosives, sharp objects, etc) on another marine including beating a marine into crit/death for a roleplay or in-character reason. The difference between this and griefing is that it normally involves 2 or more consenting players in a role-played incident or role-played escalation. A verbal argument followed by immediate murder is not "Lethal Force". You must properly escalate the situation (Argument > Pushing/Shoving/punching > Melee weapons > Guns). If you participate in a lethal force situation (even defending yourself) you are waiving your right to Admin assistance (defined below). THIS DOES NOT PREVENT IC CONSEQUENCES SUCH AS DEMOTION OR ARREST. The key part of "Lethal Force" is that it is Roleplayed.
*Admin assistance - Defined as any action taken by any Staff to heal or aid in a player's negative state.
Examples:
Marine A and Marine B are arguing by the RO office for an extended period of time. Marine A threatens marine B's life. Marine B punches/stabs marine A. Marine A punches/stabs/shoots back. This is LETHAL FORCE and allowed by the rules (but expect to be stunned into senselessness by an MP or beaten down by nearby marines).
Marine A is upset the RO refuses to give him a specific modification. The RO continues to refuse, even after the marine threatens his life. Marine A shoots at the RO with his rifle until the RO is dead. This is GRIEF (even if the RO responds by shooting back). There was no RP escalation. Going from arguing immediately to shooting will ALWAYS be grief if there isn't some sort of physical altercation involved first.
Marine A is upset with Marine B. Marine A draws his bayonet and knocks Marine B down, then stabs Marine B until he dies. This is GRIEFING. If you are going to escalate, you MUST give them time to respond with similar (or greater) force. Meaning, if you stab someone, you MUST give them a chance to say something back IC, retrieve their knife to fight, or draw their weapon before you continue.
Marine A: "Help! This guy is shooting me!" Admin: "You used lethal force on them first. Good luck."

I gave him 3+ minutes and few warnings before opening fire. My ahelp was ignored or at least he didn't stop doing what he was doing. Person was clearly violating few rules as well as ruining a last stand for marines, since W-Y team had only 2 specs and another one was a smartgunner.
2) Placing false warning on a player's list. That's obviously connected to 1st point.
3) Enforcing of Rule 0. I wasn't arguing, I was trying to give him a clean picture, since he got me wrong few times (for example, when I told him that I punched John before shooting, he thought that he punched me and I opened fire at him for that).
4) Threatening me with "Do you really wanna go there, Neray?". Pre-e-e-etty damn sure that's not how you do it.

Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc):

► Show Spoiler

TrialModerator PM from Slc97: Well it sounds like you did some improper escalation there, and he has already been noted for the rifle, but I'm gonna look into this real quick.
PM to Slc97: He didn't stop after 2 minutes of me running around begging him to stop, so, yeah, kinda needed it back.
TrialModerator PM from Slc97: That is still not an excuse for improper escalation, I'm just gonna give you a warning there.
PM to Slc97: Pardon, I was a W-Y sniper and he attacked me.
PM to Slc97: Took my rifle and ran away wasting rare ammo.
PM to Slc97: That's a direct assault, my friend. And I gave him 3 minutes to stop, but he didn't say a single word, just continued on shooting walls.
TrialModerator PM from Slc97: You still have to escalate properly
PM to Slc97: I punched him. He didn't stop.
TrialModerator PM from Slc97: You're just getting a warning, so please let me just go investigate this
PM to Slc97: I don't like warnings that are being placed for nothing. But yeah, don't mind me.
TrialModerator PM from Slc97: Do you really wanna go there, Neray?
PM to Slc97: Go where, Slc?
TrialModerator PM from Slc97: You're being warned for a reason. You do not answer punches with shooting, especially if he has not hit you back at any time.
PM to Slc97: Guy basically started to grief my ammo, also violating metagame rules about...Slc, I punched HIM first. 3 minutes later I shot him for ignoring it.
PM to Slc97: You're missreading me.
TrialModerator PM from Slc97: That is still improper escalation of force. If you get griefed you Ahelp it and we handle it. It is not your job to handle it.
PM to Slc97: I did ahelp it. Dobbin marked it as "no-answer-needed" and guy continued wasting my ammo.
PM to Slc97: While violating metagame rule about spec weapons as well. Not talking about fact that he took it from me in a first place.
TrialModerator PM from Slc97: Because Dobbin went and talked to the guy. You don't have the right to break the rules because someone else did
PM to Slc97: Listen. I was a W-Y team member. I was attacked. I asked to give my weapon back. I tried to take it back, but he ran away. After 3 minutes of running I finally took my pistol out.
PM to Slc97: This is as proper as it could get.
TrialModerator PM from Slc97: Since you apparently have no understanding of the improper escalation rules, you're getting a 24 hour server ban now. Go back, read the rules, and next time you get a warning, don't argue the warning.
You have been banned by slc97.
Reason: Improper Escalation of force. His weapon was stolen as a PMC, so he started hitting the guy, and then 3 minutes later started shooting him. I gave him a warning only, and he continued to argue that he shouldn't be given a warning, so considering past notes, I issued a 24 hour ban.

How you would punish the accused:
Apart from this situation Slc is a helpful chap and personally I've got nothing against him. In this one however he was clearly wrong, unprofessional and too quick to act. I suggest some sort of disciplinary action for him and my ban removal. For a strange reason I thought that we're out from Greytide 2016 and you can post more than 2 words while discussing something with moderators. Looks like Slc is still in past.

[slc97]

First off, you were not looted. John Hatter found your gun in a gas cloud on the Sulaco. Presumably you dropped it after being hit by a boiler.
Secondly, when I went to investigate this, Dobbins had already put a note on John Hayter's file. I went to investigate this because you told me something had to be done about his conduct and that other people had complaints about him. The only other complaints about him were from a report already being handled and from a guy who, when I checked the logs, was wrong.
Third, this was clear cut improper escalation. You're not allowed to start shooting someone because they took your gun. When I said "do you really want to go there" I wanted you to drop it because I just wanted to give you a warning
Fourth, your arguing with staff has gotten you in trouble multiple times. I am very glad and very thankful that you at least didnt curse at me or insult me like you have with others, but the sarcasm was there, and you obviously lack an understanding of the rules.
If the admins come in here and find me at fault, I will absolutely apologize to you, but it seems to me that you lack a proper understanding of how escalation of force works and need to go back and read the rules.

[Neray]

First off, you were not looted. John Hatter found your gun in a gas cloud on the Sulaco. Presumably you dropped it after being hit by a boiler.
Secondly, when I went to investigate this, Dobbins had already put a note on John Hayter's file. I went to investigate this because you told me something had to be done about his conduct and that other people had complaints about him. The only other complaints about him were from a report already being handled and from a guy who, when I checked the logs, was wrong.
Third, this was clear cut improper escalation. You're not allowed to start shooting someone because they took your gun. When I said "do you really want to go there" I wanted you to drop it because I just wanted to give you a warning
Fourth, your arguing with staff has gotten you in trouble multiple times. I am very glad and very thankful that you at least didnt curse at me or insult me like you have with others, but the sarcasm was there, and you obviously lack an understanding of the rules.
If the admins come in here and find me at fault, I will absolutely apologize to you, but it seems to me that you lack a proper understanding of how escalation of force works and need to go back and read the rules.

1) I was looted. He took a gun that was lying right under me and he clearly saw that I wasn't dead. More though, right after he took it he ran off to cryo and started wasting ammo.
2) -
3) I was a ERT member. W-Y team CAN and WILL open fire on marines going against their command's orders and attacking them. And of course they'll defend themselves if marines attacking em on command's order, but I degress.
4) Not sure about "multiple times", since I've got back to CM about 2 months ago. Yes, I was arguing last time I got banned as RO, because guy who banned me was too lazy to get a good look on situation. Basically an armed survivor told MP to arrest his own ensign and MP took it as an order. That was a self-defense and I was angry cause admin totally ignored that fact. Curse? Yes, I do insult people from time to time, usually when they're acting as retarded children, but I can't remember any other situations except for RO. Situation that happened with my BO is another story, cause I was angry on Warnipple not for his admin actions, but for his afk habit as CO, that led to marines losing round.
5) I don't know what type of rules you're trying to apply here, I gave you a direct quote from rules list and, first of all, it doesn't apply to ERT teams (basically I could've just shot him right away, but instead I tried to PROPERLY escalate it. It's hard to escalate something if your opponent is ignoring you), secondly - it WAS escalted properly as rule states.

[Feweh]

When PMC's enter Sulaco the message is something like "This is PMC's from Royce, any act of hostility will be met with Lethal force"
PMC's are considered a NEUTRAL ERT, leaning towards friendly usually.

Stealing someone's gun, is an act of hostility.
If you're in a war-zone and someone who is supposed to be your friend assisting you STEALS your guns.... that's an act of hostility.
Especially when you're in the middle of a fire-fight.

This WOULD be improper escalation HAD Neray not warned and asked for his weapon back. (Even then it'd be iffy)
It's not unusual for players to pick up fallen weapons on the ground, so it would of been very shitty to just start killing the RO.

This was entirely an IC issue.
As soon as Neray SHOT the RO to retrieve the weapon, it became an IC issue. As he rightful in shooting the RO, he then forfeited any further assistance from Admins.
So if the Marines decided to shoot the PMC at that point, it was on him as he just killed their fellow marine. Neray was not entitled to any assistance at any point from admins, the RO taking his weapon was considered IC as Neray was a ERT and not technically a marine.

I would go as far to say that the RO was purposely being a dick if he was ignoring the PMC to return the weapon AND purposely wasting ammo on the wall.

Anyways, Neray will be unbanned and I'l bump TR to this.

[slc97]

Okay, sorry then. I was under the impression that this was a pretty clear cut improper escalation.
Neray: I apologize.

[Feweh]

Also Neray, you can write ban-appeals.

SLC wasn't being exactly shitty or an asshole about the situation.
It was just his way of understanding the rules and believing he was enforcing the rules properly.

This would of been a perfect ban-appeal situation.

[TR-BlackDragon]

Pretty much what Feweh said in a nutshell, The ban will be removed, any note with it will be remove. I will have a talk with SLC so that he will better understand a situation like this. I do apologize for the trouble.

RESOLVED