An Admin Complaint Against Slc97

[Youbar]

Your Byond Key: Youbar

Your Character Name: Wilhelm Eberhardt

Their Byond key: Slc97

Approximate time and date of the incident (Central Us Time for best results):8PM, 03/09/16

Which Admin Protocols (viewtopic.php?f=57&t=5647) were broken: 2 - investigate the situation

Description of the incident: This round proved itself to be particularly troublesome for both parties involved, that beings the administrators, and command itself. I had an initial reluctance to participate in it, but decided to take up the challenge of playing as the commander, and acting as competently as I could to the point I was micromanaging every squad despite the presence of Bridge Officers aboard the ship. I decided that I'd take a less generic route for the round, and create defensive positions in engineering, the nexus, and an FOB at the medical bay dome where supplies were easily accessible, and survivors likely to be found. This turned out to all be a bit flawed.
The first problem popped up when Charlie and Delta came under attack at the medical bay dome by hostile wildlife. Playing my character, I initially thought nothing of it until a Bridge Officer reported that he observed a conscious body being dragged across the river and into the caves through the squad monitor. The hostile wildlife was also reported to be throwning yellow crabs, and destroying helmets. I decided that they were a major pest, and would impede operations, so I ordered Alpha and Bravo to mobilise and push into the caves, to track down the increasing number of marines who were being pulled away, and to exterminate a species hat was interfering with a military operation. Shortly after, High Command intervened and said, "The Commander's orders are not valid, and you have not been authorised across the river. Retreat." Now, at this point, you've got to keep in mind that resin fortifications are directly visible from snipers, from people with binoculars, and so on. There was a very real threat across the river, and admins thought that it would be fair to intervene despite the aliens making their presence very visible.
"Okay," I thought, a bit confused, and then I get a PM from Slc97. He's asking me why I ordered an all-out assault on the hive. I notified him that I only sent Alpha and Bravo, which combined numbered at around fourteen out of the total forty marines on the planet. He goes on to question why I selected thet medical dome as a forward operating base, and despite me telling him it would hold vital medical supplies that might be needed to treat the colonists in a situation that warrants a distress beacon, he said that that wasn't correct at all. I also pointed out research may have had a biohazard leak, ranging from plasma to escaped slimes. I was punished for taking the most important areas of the colony, and also for ordering a counter-attack against creatures that were camped right across the river and constantly harassing my marines and dragging them north. He gives me a warning for this.
Now, let's be fair. There were 108 players on, all sending ahelps every now and then, so it's rather stressful for him. It's stressful for me, too, because I'm micromanaging this to the point that I'm worrying about every individual marine, where they might be, how many marines the squads could focus on a single point, and so on. There's at least 70 in total, not to mention the ones on the Sulaco breaching into medical, attempting to breach into space, attempting to kill eachother, attempting to evade military police capture, and so on. It's far from easy for me, and I feel that I was given a warning simply because I played my role of commander with reasonable competence.
Anyway, marines are told to pull back. I fast forward a bit, and one of my military police wants to execute a prisoner for shooting at other marines. I authorise it, saying "Go ahead." I promptly make an announcement in commons, and before I can get to the console to make a more formal announcement, Slc97 is on my arse again. I tell him to give me a moment, and then make the announcement, and then go and observe the execution. My military police, who acted independently of me, something I have almost no control of, had already murdered the guy and were waiting on me to space him. I told Slc97 that I had no control over that, that the military police did it and not myself, and he simply responded by saying that I should only authorise an execution when I can actually be present to observe it. Just like him, I'm managing a whole bunch of players, and I have limited time to dedicate to small things like caring about an intentional griefer.
I get another warning, and this time, he job bans me, says that I'm incompetent. I cannot express how angry[/] this makes me, because I was helping the marines as best as I could, and the early game success I was punished for reflect this. When I announced I was leaving, people actually expressed discontent, knowing that Bill Carson, who's infamously terrible, would be taking over instead of me. I've seen commanders who don't even bother doing their job, and they get by without any notes every round. Anyway, to put it short, I feel like I did my job too well, and was reprimanded as a result. This wasn't because of my actions, but from the actions of others. The minor assault I intended early game was much larger because elements of other squads decided not to stay put. The execution I intended to be carried out properly had its regulations disregarded because the military police couldn't want to butcher the guy. I'm just a little bit unhappy about all this.

Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc): With all the comms chatter I was looking at, all the evidence was gone by the time I had walked over to cryogenics to leave the round. View this thread for a few more details on how things played out.

How you would punish the accused: I don't think it would be fair to punish them. We were both stressed, but I feel like he didn't make the right decisions here, refusing to see things from my perspective and understanding how I might be feeling about things. I want the commander job ban removed, considering it was far from appropriate given the amount of effort I put into the role and the circumstances, and I'll be happy with that.

[slc97]

Alright, logs are not completely up to date, so I'll comment what I have here and then will update it in a later comment.

First: The metarush.
I got called on to deal with a metarush by Xiphos. I responded 7 minutes later, which means the rush had been going on for at least 7 minutes. It was sometime around 43 minutes round time when I first logged in to begin handling the metarush.
[19:29:43]ADMIN: Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell) has created a M.O.T.H.E.R. report: Noticing a large number of marine signatures north of the river. River crossing has not been authorized by high command. Retreat immediately.
[19:30:36]SAY: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt) has made an USCM announcement: This is Commander Eberhardt. Please clarify why I need High Command's authorisation to run my own operation?
I jobbanned you because I deemed you an incompetent commander from your actions. Asking why High Command has authority over you is a pretty good start to show why.

[19:29:53]SAY: Nevaeh 'Baby' Stroh/Nicholas98 : River crossing was authorized by the co
[19:32:22]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): I ordered the marines to go across the river. There were reports from marines situated at the medical dome and hydroponics, our secondary forward operating base, that they were coming from up there.
[19:41:35]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): You're right. I should leave marines with life signs, being dragged across a river, to fend for themselves against wildlife that has proven itself capable of quite easily killing people. This was never an all-out assault. It was simply Alpha and Bravo pushing up, while Charlie and Delta continued to assist in maintaining a defensive line at a critical location. I never knew that marines left their wounded to die in enemy territory, but, really, thanks for clarifying that.
These are pretty much where you admit to the metarush and how you try to justify it. First off, I cannot fathom needing a secondary forward base within 10 minutes of landing. Secondly, power wasn't even set up yet from what I saw. Thirdly, you had all four of the squads at some point on the river line within 10 to 15 minutes of landing. This is blatant metarushing, and I let it got with a warning.

Finally, let's get to the improper execution.
I watched a player get executed in the execution chamber. I never heard an announcement about it, and the CO was nowhere to be seen. I was dealing with large number of Ahelps at the time, so I figured I might have missed it. Then you sent me this.
[20:16:21]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): It was over Sulaco common chat. I'm getting to the proper announcement now.
(This is the last log I have for now)
A proper announcement must be made before the execution.

Now, after this, you began to tell me that, and I will pull the logs when they update if you'd like me too:
1. You couldn't control the MPs from doing the execution without you.
2. You did not have the time to make sure everything was done right with the execution.
3. It was justified because you did 1/4 of the things necessary for an execution.

My answer to this is:
1. Not being able to control the MPs shows me that you are not a competent commander which assists in the justification of the ban.
2. If you do not have the time to properly carry out an execution, you should not be ordering executions.
3. The 1/4 of the execution you were referring to was the announcement which you still didn't do, so you did 0/4 things proper with the execution. Either way, doing something 25 percent right does not overshadow doing the rest of it 75 percent wrong.

Last but not least, your post is really more of a ban appeal than a staff complaint. As I said earlier, I will post more when the logs up date.

[slc97]

Execution Procedures

“The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.”
Executions are authorized for crimes with execution as the maximum punishment. Additionally, if the maximum amount of time to be served is greater than 1 hour, the commander can authorize an execution if they believe that the prisoner will re-offend or is/will be a danger to the crew or ship.

Only the commander (or acting commander) may authorize executions. If they decide an execution is necessary the follow procedure must be followed:

The commander must make a ship-wide announcement from the bridge communication console, informing the crew of the intent to execute and why. (Example: "I, Captain Erin Kowalski, hereby authorize the execution of Donald Cluwne on the charges of murder, assault, and damage to the ship. He will be executed by firing squad in the briefing room.")
The commander must declare the method of execution used from the following:
Lethal Injection (30u chloral hydrate or other chemical).
Firing Squad (commander may pick the marines).
Airlock Decompression (ejected out the airlock at the rear of the ship).
The commander MUST be present at the execution.
The condemned MUST be given a chance to give any final words.


Copied and pasted directly from marine law.

[Youbar]

I jobbanned you because I deemed you an incompetent commander from your actions. Asking why High Command has authority over you is a pretty good start to show why.

I have seen commanders do far stupider things, and go unpunished. That hardly qualifies as incompetence.

These are pretty much where you admit to the metarush and how you try to justify it. First off, I cannot fathom needing a secondary forward base within 10 minutes of landing. Secondly, power wasn't even set up yet from what I saw. Thirdly, you had all four of the squads at some point on the river line within 10 to 15 minutes of landing. This is blatant metarushing, and I let it got with a warning.

That was not admitting to a meta-rush. I explained that the medical dome held valuable supplies, that research could be the source of a biohazard outbreak, and hence, a distress beacon, that Charlie and Delta had established a forward operating base at medical and were consistently being skirmished, and that I had sent marines to relieve them. Alpha deployed early, establishing power well before the other squads arrived (roughly five minutes beforehand). Charlie was originally the only squad intended to go to the medical dome, but Delta lost their lead, and followed after them as per my instructions. Charlie and Delta came under attack, so I sent Alpha and Bravo to flank around the buildings in a sort of pincer movement, and follow the creatures north where it was confirmed they were taking conscious marines, as well as where there were visible resin fortifications.

Finally, let's get to the improper execution.
I watched a player get executed in the execution chamber. I never heard an announcement about it, and the CO was nowhere to be seen. I was dealing with large number of Ahelps at the time, so I figured I might have missed it. Then you sent me this.
[20:16:21]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): It was over Sulaco common chat. I'm getting to the proper announcement now.
(This is the last log I have for now)
A proper announcement must be made before the execution.

An announcement was made shortly after that private message. Unfortunately, you didn't see it, and I couldn't get to the execution chamber fast enough to stop the military police, acting independently of me, being executed. Somebody should find it in the logs, but it was something like [executor] will be executing [executed] for the crimes of [crimes].

Now, after this, you began to tell me that, and I will pull the logs when they update if you'd like me too:
1. You couldn't control the MPs from doing the execution without you.
2. You did not have the time to make sure everything was done right with the execution.
3. It was justified because you did 1/4 of the things necessary for an execution.

My answer to this is:
1. Not being able to control the MPs shows me that you are not a competent commander which assists in the justification of the ban.
2. If you do not have the time to properly carry out an execution, you should not be ordering executions.
3. The 1/4 of the execution you were referring to was the announcement which you still didn't do, so you did 0/4 things proper with the execution. Either way, doing something 25 percent right does not overshadow doing the rest of it 75 percent wrong.

Last but not least, your post is really more of a ban appeal than a staff complaint. As I said earlier, I will post more when the logs up date.

1. Marines act independently of me. I was too busy managing other aspects to have the thought cross my mind that they may have executed the prisoner without me being present.
2. I did attempt, to the best of my ability, to carry it out properly. I made the announcement, which I'd like you to check the logs for, and rushed over to the execution chamber to find his body completely butchered.
3. Half of those variables were out of my control. I made an announcement regarding the execution (check logs, please), but there was something else I missed. Minor, I think. The military police, once more, acted independently of me.

A reminder: the miltiary police acted independently of me. It's hard to keep an iron grip on all 70 Sulaco personnel, despite how much I try.

Execution Procedures

“The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.”
Executions are authorized for crimes with execution as the maximum punishment. Additionally, if the maximum amount of time to be served is greater than 1 hour, the commander can authorize an execution if they believe that the prisoner will re-offend or is/will be a danger to the crew or ship.

Only the commander (or acting commander) may authorize executions. If they decide an execution is necessary the follow procedure must be followed:

The commander must make a ship-wide announcement from the bridge communication console, informing the crew of the intent to execute and why. (Example: "I, Captain Erin Kowalski, hereby authorize the execution of Donald Cluwne on the charges of murder, assault, and damage to the ship. He will be executed by firing squad in the briefing room.")
The commander must declare the method of execution used from the following:
Lethal Injection (30u chloral hydrate or other chemical).
Firing Squad (commander may pick the marines).
Airlock Decompression (ejected out the airlock at the rear of the ship).
The commander MUST be present at the execution.
The condemned MUST be given a chance to give any final words.


Copied and pasted directly from marine law.

Thank you for clarifying that. As it happens, I did make an announcement, I did make an announcement, I did make an announcement, I did make an announcement, I did make an announcement, describing who was to be executed, by who, and why, but unfortunately, didn't clarify the method of death (sorry!). By the time I got to the execution chamber, the miltiary police had acted independently of me, and carried it out already. By the time I got to the execution chamber, the miltiary police had acted independently of me, and carried it out already. By the time I got to the execution chamber, the miltiary police had acted independently of me, and carried it out already.

[Warnipple]

Oh hey, just thought I'd chime in with my opinion here.

Commander role and Moderator are two of the most stressful positions in the game so both of you seem pretty stressed out about this situation and I understand that.

Let me just say that a competent Commander shouldn't be ordering squads across the river before the 1 hour mark or at least 50 minutes into the game (12:50) station time. Its stupid I know but most Commanders should be aware of this rule or they could be punished accordingly. Although I wouldn't hold the Commander accountable for the actions of all his men, logically its understandable but this is a video game. That being said, I don't think you should've gotten a Commander job ban. More of a warning in the future. We're supposed to be more lenient with bans as Greytide is supposedly over. My understanding is that Slc was super frustrated and stressed when he was handling this though so he may have had a biased view towards this.

Now moving on to the execution. The Commander shouldn't be responsible for the actions of his incompetent MPs if they executed the prisoner without the Commander. The problem is not that the Commander couldn't attend, it is that the MPs didn't wait for him. This seems like a problem regarding the MPs than the Commander. You made an announcement over General Comms which gives me the impression that you read the Marine Law book, were new to the endeavour and had the right intentions in mind. Slc did say he didn't see the announcement. We could dig into the logs to find that announcement but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, you don't seem like a bad guy.

Anyway, I don't think anyones done anything wrong.

Youbar, you seem to have made a couple mistakes. Completely understandable.

Slc was probably stressed from handling the meta-rush and got pissed off at the Commander which is also understandable. He couldn't investigate the situation because he was the only mod on handling 100+ players. Which is insanely hard.

I feel the job ban was a bit over the top. I would vote to have it lifted, Slc put this ban so he gets the final say though or a headmin of course.


Also medbay FOBs are fine. Its actually insanely bad to have a medbay FOB because its hard to get marines back to the Sulaco. Aliens can camp the routes for easy kills. My personal opinion however.

[Youbar]

Youbar, you just seem to make a couple mistakes. Completely understandable.

Slc was probably stressed from handling the meta-rush and got pissed off at the Commander which is also understandable. He couldn't investigate the situation because he was the only mod on handling 100+ players. Which is insanely hard.

I feel the job ban was a bit over the top. I would vote to have it lifted, Slc put this ban so he gets the final say though or a headmin of course.

This summarises my thoughts. Both of us were stressed. I made some mistakes, and he may have done so too. I would be happy with a warning, if that was the final decision.

[slc97]

My problem is, there was a BO and the entire security team that attended the execution, so I personally have a hard time believing that they all were able to get together immediately together right after the CO announced the execution.
Logs have probably updated by now, so let me go diving for the rest.

[Youbar]

My problem is, there was a BO and the entire security team that attended the execution, so I personally have a hard time believing that they all were able to get together immediately together right after the CO announced the execution.

The two military police were in a relationship together ICly, and the Bridge Officer was slacking off getting involved in grunt affairs. Considering it took me two minutes to get to the execution chamber, primarily because I made two announcements (formal and informal), I could easily have seen them getting together before me and carried it out briskly without my observation. The military police officer actually spoke to me afterwards, and said that he "killed a man with his bare hands" because they "attacked his wife". The two had been begging to execute him for a solid thirty minutes, so I let it happen because it was a justifiable decision under the law.

[slc97]

[20:14:47]SAY: Wilhelm Eberhardt/Youbar : Private First Class Shick, for attempted murder, has been sentenced to death and will be executed.
Here's the announcement that only said his name.

[20:14:50]SAY: Rain Hoth/Rain7x : We have lethal injections for a reason.
From the CL who attended the execution as well.

[20:14:51]SAY: Wilhelm Eberhardt/Youbar : Go ahead.

This part sounds to me like you had no intention of ever attending the execution and that you sent the CL instead. Maybe I'm wrong here, but that's what the context of the time stamps and logs say to me.

[20:24:36]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): I'm sorry, Slc97, but like you, I'm managing all the marines on the server, and it's a bit stressful. My time is limited to dedicate towards executions, but feel free to notify me how it's done.
Again, if your time is limited towards executions, you can just go ahead and perma the guy instead of doing the execution wrong.

[20:26:01]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): Right, well, I did about 1/4 of that. I announced they were executed, didn't know you had to announce the method of execution, and my military police killed them without actually letting me be present, and giving me the opportunity to get their last words.

[20:28:49]ADMIN: PM: Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell)->Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt): I already talked to you this round about ordering a metarush, and now you've gone and preformed an execution three quarters of the way wrong. I've talked with the rest of staff, and I am jobbanning you from commander. You can make an appeal on the forums.

[20:29:16]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): What!? Slc97, I have no control over my military police. I authorised the execution, but I never actually got told they killed him without me being there.
Once again, a CO should absolutely have control over the MPs.

[20:30:15]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): Just stop for a moment, for fuck's sake. We're both stressed out here. I can't do everything perfectly, Slc97, especially with 100+ marines.
No one is asking you to do everything perfectly. The thing is, an execution takes a player out of the round. You have to do it right and for the right reasons.

Now, after the ban was applied

[20:30:51]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): Oh, for fuck sake, I'm ordering an admin complaint. This is outright stupid.
[20:31:13]ADMIN: PM: Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell)->Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt): you may make a complaint if you like. There is a subforum for that as well.
[20:32:12]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): You're not taking into account my view of things at all here. I'm managing all the marines on the station, and I'm faulted when I make a minor mistake against an intentional griefer?
Okay, this one bothers me a bit here. Why does it matter if you view the guy as an intentional griefer? Someone breaking the rules isn't an excuse to break rules.

[20:33:42]ADMIN: PM: Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell)->Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt): If you do not have the time to properly preform an execution, then do not order one to be improperly preformed. Given this and the metarush situation, I have deemed you to be an incompetent commander. You may appeal this and maybe others will see otherwise, but this is my deicision for now.

[20:34:37]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): I thought it was as easy as making an announcement. I had no idea of all the other requirements. The metarush was unintentional, too, because I ordered a defensive at medical, not for an offensive by them. I'm far from incompetent, and I feel like I'm being punished for playing my role as effectively as I can when I see other commanders put in a 10th of the effort and not being punished at all.
So, earlier you told me that you ordered Alpha and Bravo across the river, but now you're telling me that you did not order an offensive. Also, we have a spot in the rules that says ignorance is not an excuse for the execution requirements part.

[20:35:51]ADMIN: PM: Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell)->Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt): This is over. If you have a complaint. Post it on the forums
I do sound kind of dickish here, but this is me trying to move on to the plethora of other Ahelp issues we had.
[20:36:01]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): This isn't over. This is fucking ridiculous.


Anyway, my summary of the situation in total is as follows:
You ordered a metarush at the beginning of the round and put all 4 squads on the river bank, with two crossing the river. This is already a bannable offense. When I tried to stop the metarush, you asked what authority high command was, and then you kept trying to tell me it wasn't a metarush. If all 4 squads are on the river before it's even been an hour round time, that's a metarush. This is already a bannable offense, but I went ahead and moved onto the next set of Ahelps.

Now, this execution comes into play. you authorized the execution of this guy. You sent out the message as a Sulaco general chat instead of as an announcement like you're supposed to. Then, the logs imply that you sent the CL in your place to the execution. That is my interpretation of the logs, if my higher ups interpret it differently, I will side with their interpretation. Then, when I asked about it, you first told me that it was the MPs' faults, then you told me it shouldn't matter it was done wrong because you thought the guy was a rulebreaker, then you told me it was because you didn't know the rules for this.

This finishes my end of the story. I believe the rest of this is being left up to TR. If he decides I did wrong, I will gladly apologize to you, but right now I wholeheartedly stand by my decision.

[Feweh]

I passed this along to TR, just simply because I dealt with SLC's last admin complaint and I want to remove any doubt of bias.

However, 2 warnings in the same round does warrant a job-ban.

[Youbar]

[20:14:47]SAY: Wilhelm Eberhardt/Youbar : Private First Class Shick, for attempted murder, has been sentenced to death and will be executed.
Here's the announcement that only said his name.

My mistake, then. I'm fairly certain I said the name of the executioner, but I've been proven wrong.

[20:14:50]SAY: Rain Hoth/Rain7x : We have lethal injections for a reason.
From the CL who attended the execution as well.

[20:14:51]SAY: Wilhelm Eberhardt/Youbar : Go ahead
.
This part sounds to me like you had no intention of ever attending the execution and that you sent the CL instead. Maybe I'm wrong here, but that's what the context of the time stamps and logs say to me.

Go ahead? What is the context of this message? I (think) this was me authorising the execution itself, but I never authorised the Corporate Liasion to take my place, and I did intend to be there for the execution, but the player was killed before I could get there.

[20:24:36]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): I'm sorry, Slc97, but like you, I'm managing all the marines on the server, and it's a bit stressful. My time is limited to dedicate towards executions, but feel free to notify me how it's done.
Again, if your time is limited towards executions, you can just go ahead and perma the guy instead of doing the execution wrong.

I was doing the execution as best as I could. You keep saying that did it wrong, but I want to reiterate what I said above. By the time I got to the execution chamber, the miltiary police had acted independently of me, and carried it out already. By the time I got to the execution chamber, the miltiary police had acted independently of me, and carried it out already. Failing to identify who the executioner was, and what the method of execution was doesn't qualify as a job ban to me. It was an honest mistake from stress that you're blowing well out of proportion.

[20:26:01]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): Right, well, I did about 1/4 of that. I announced they were executed, didn't know you had to announce the method of execution, and my military police killed them without actually letting me be present, and giving me the opportunity to get their last words.

[20:28:49]ADMIN: PM: Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell)->Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt): I already talked to you this round about ordering a metarush, and now you've gone and preformed an execution three quarters of the way wrong. I've talked with the rest of staff, and I am jobbanning you from commander. You can make an appeal on the forums.

[20:29:16]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): What!? Slc97, I have no control over my military police. I authorised the execution, but I never actually got told they killed him without me being there.
Once again, a CO should absolutely have control over the MPs.

[20:30:15]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): Just stop for a moment, for fuck's sake. We're both stressed out here. I can't do everything perfectly, Slc97, especially with 100+ marines.
No one is asking you to do everything perfectly. The thing is, an execution takes a player out of the round. You have to do it right and for the right reasons.

You keep saying that a CO should have absolute control over his Military Police. You seem unable to understand that they are human beings, with their own thoughts and desires. I think the best way of putting this is...By the time I got to the execution chamber, the miltiary police had acted independently of me, and carried it out already. By the time I got to the execution chamber, the miltiary police had acted independently of me, and carried it out already. There is no such absolute control over anybody when you're dealing with 70+ marines. That's almost like saying you, as a moderator, should be able to stop any griefing the moment it happens, because as a moderator, you should have absolute control over the players.

[20:30:51]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): Oh, for fuck sake, I'm ordering an admin complaint. This is outright stupid.
[20:31:13]ADMIN: PM: Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell)->Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt): you may make a complaint if you like. There is a subforum for that as well.
[20:32:12]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): You're not taking into account my view of things at all here. I'm managing all the marines on the station, and I'm faulted when I make a minor mistake against an intentional griefer?
Okay, this one bothers me a bit here. Why does it matter if you view the guy as an intentional griefer? Someone breaking the rules isn't an excuse to break rules.

At this point, I'm being blamed for the actions of the military police when they act independently of my thoughts, and carried out the execution without my presence. The guy had intentionally griefed other players, shooting them for no reason, and I'm faulted for not carrying out things to the letter. He probably got off with a lighter punishment than I did!

[20:33:42]ADMIN: PM: Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell)->Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt): If you do not have the time to properly preform an execution, then do not order one to be improperly preformed. Given this and the metarush situation, I have deemed you to be an incompetent commander. You may appeal this and maybe others will see otherwise, but this is my deicision for now.

[20:34:37]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): I thought it was as easy as making an announcement. I had no idea of all the other requirements. The metarush was unintentional, too, because I ordered a defensive at medical, not for an offensive by them. I'm far from incompetent, and I feel like I'm being punished for playing my role as effectively as I can when I see other commanders put in a 10th of the effort and not being punished at all.
So, earlier you told me that you ordered Alpha and Bravo across the river, but now you're telling me that you did not order an offensive. Also, we have a spot in the rules that says ignorance is not an excuse for the execution requirements part.

Correct. I ordered Alpha and Bravo across the river. I did not order Charlie and Delta across the river, but they went anyway, and inflated the offensive count from a skirmish with fourteen marines to likely what you saw as an "all-out offensive". You also keep going back to the whole issue of the execution, but I think you're forgetting that by the time I got to the execution chamber, the miltiary police had acted independently of me, and carried it out already. I don't think you would have faulted my nearly as much if everything else had been done except the method of execution, and who was executing them, but apparently me not having complete control of an independent player is my fault.

[20:35:51]ADMIN: PM: Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell)->Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt): This is over. If you have a complaint. Post it on the forums
I do sound kind of dickish here, but this is me trying to move on to the plethora of other Ahelp issues we had.
[20:36:01]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt)->Slc97/(Dom 'Decker' Parnell): This isn't over. This is fucking ridiculous.

You wanted to move on to answering other admin helps, I understand that. Unfortunately, it seems like you can't understand the fact that stressed players make mistakes, and surprisingly, don't have control over all 70 people under their command.

Anyway, my summary of the situation in total is as follows:
You ordered a metarush at the beginning of the round and put all 4 squads on the river bank, with two crossing the river. This is already a bannable offense. When I tried to stop the metarush, you asked what authority high command was, and then you kept trying to tell me it wasn't a metarush. If all 4 squads are on the river before it's even been an hour round time, that's a metarush. This is already a bannable offense, but I went ahead and moved onto the next set of Ahelps.

Now, this execution comes into play. you authorized the execution of this guy. You sent out the message as a Sulaco general chat instead of as an announcement like you're supposed to. Then, the logs imply that you sent the CL in your place to the execution. That is my interpretation of the logs, if my higher ups interpret it differently, I will side with their interpretation. Then, when I asked about it, you first told me that it was the MPs' faults, then you told me it shouldn't matter it was done wrong because you thought the guy was a rulebreaker, then you told me it was because you didn't know the rules for this.

This finishes my end of the story. I believe the rest of this is being left up to TR. If he decides I did wrong, I will gladly apologize to you, but right now I wholeheartedly stand by my decision.

Could you at least read my responses? I explained why the "meta-rush" turned into something much larger than what it actually was, and I explained that I did make an announcement (which I believe you're intentionally not retrieving logs for to support your side of the argument). The Corporate Liasion never took my place - I told the military police to "go ahead" with the execution, and I was delayed by two minutes that resulted in the execution being carried out without my observation. I never claimed I didn't know the rules regarding it. You're just blowing this well out of proportion from what started as aliens complaining about a meta-rush after they built fortifications right next to the riverbank, and actively dragged marines across the river, to pinning every little problem on me. I made mistakes, yes, but none of this qualifies for a job ban, and could easily be filed under "be a bit more careful as a commander in the future".

[TR-BlackDragon]

Alrighty, I do apologize for the delay in my response to this. I was at an event yesterday and was unaware of what was going on. So, From what I can see here this is more of a Ban appeal then a Staff complaint. SLC did investigate the situation to the best of his abilities. One of the things that gets CO's Job banned is performing Executions. Most take the job with out playing all of the jobs under them first. Like MP's. MP's Have more rules then everyone in the game except for the commander and XO. As a Commander you are required to know and understand every rule, and regulation including the Marine Law book. You admitted to not knowing about some of the rules for executions which had you taken the time to read the Marine law book which details how to handle a proper execution you wouldn't have ran into this situation. If the MP's Failed to follow your orders then you should have either, A) Ahelped it as them breaking MP rules and asked for assistance, or B) Had the involved MP's arrested and detained for Insubordination and Murder. As even though the one killed was going to be killed, the death was carried out before its proper time. I will be contacting the Mp's on duty and having a conversation with them and if they did break the MP rules i will also be issueing out job bans from MP or issueing formal warnings (depending on notes).

So As it currently resides, Im issuing that no corrective actions will be brought against SLC on this matter unless further proof of a staff protocol or procedure rule break can given. If you wish to apply for a removal of the job ban then I would advise that you make a proper Ban appeal on the proper forum location.


Also before i forget, Concerning the Meta Rush, At no point should there have ever been four squads staged at the medical dome. One should have been working on restoring power, one should have been setting up defences either at the Nexus or the T-com dome. Then one should have been searching the compound for survivors and or supplies, the other you could have had setting up the medical area to help wounded if any showed up. But Having that many marines staged that close to the river... Its just screams meta rush.

[Youbar]

If the MP's Failed to follow your orders then you should have either, A) Ahelped it as them breaking MP rules and asked for assistance, or B) Had the involved MP's arrested and detained for Insubordination and Murder. As even though the one killed was going to be killed, the death was carried out before its proper time. I will be contacting the Mp's on duty and having a conversation with them and if they did break the MP rules i will also be issueing out job bans from MP or issueing formal warnings (depending on notes).

If it required that I send an adminhelp to resolve the situation, I do not know why I am being pinned with the blame of the execution being carried out improperly. Yes, I did neglect to mention who the executioner was, and what the method of execution was, but I intended to be present for the execution when it took place. It was a mistake that came about managing 70 marines that I missed those details, but it is not at all my fault that the military police killed the guy before I got there, and that I get warned instead of them. The responsibility for his improper execution should be passed onto them, not me.

So As it currently resides, Im issuing that no corrective actions will be brought against SLC on this matter unless further proof of a staff protocol or procedure rule break can given.

Yes, Slc97 did break protocol. He has repeatedly said above that I did not make an announcement regarding a player's execution, and has intentionally ommitted logs that would prove that I made the announcement. I request that you check them yourself.

Also before i forget, Concerning the Meta Rush, At no point should there have ever been four squads staged at the medical dome. One should have been working on restoring power, one should have been setting up defences either at the Nexus or the T-com dome. Then one should have been searching the compound for survivors and or supplies, the other you could have had setting up the medical area to help wounded if any showed up. But Having that many marines staged that close to the river... Its just screams meta rush.

I feel like I'm speaking to a brick wall here, so I'll detail it in a very simple structure.
Alpha goes engineering. Bravo goes nexus. Charlie goes medical. Delta moves in a clockwise sweep. Delta has no squad leader for clockwise sweep. Delta gets sent to follow Charlie. Delta and Charlie are ordered to expand fortifications to science, and hydroponics. Delta and Charlie are under attack by hostile lifeforms. Delta and Charlie have their marines dragged across river into visible resin fortifications. Alpha and Bravo move to pursue the attackers because that would be common sense. Alpha and Bravo number at 14 marines. Charlie and Delta number at 26. I never intended for Alpha and Bravo to be supported by Charlie and Delta, but the marines disregarded orders to stay put and pursued regardless.

Please explain to me what exactly I did wrong there, other than moving to a valuable position and sending what I intended to be a small assault force to pursue marines being dragged across the river.

[slc97]

I posted the announcement you made above. That was the announcement you made over the Sulaco general chat.

Here's the announcement you made after the guy was already executed and after I started PMing you asking about the announcement you never made.
[20:17:16]SAY: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt) has made Command Announcement: Command Announcement - Private First Class Shick, for attempted murder, has been sentenced to death and will be executed. All defensive efforts planet-side should be focused on the Nexus. Abandon engineering and LZ2. - Wilhelm Eberhardt (Commander)
This is still an improper announcement for an execution. You failed to follow execution protocol in both the improper announcement and the proper announcement.

Furthermore, you keep blaming this on the MPs and saying how you didn't have control over the MP team because you were micromanaging the ground marines. The Commander shouldn't be micromanaging the ground marines. You had a full BO and XO team. You should have absolutely been in control of the MP team if a full MP team, BO, and CL can all gather for an execution.

As for the metarush, you've just stated that you positioned all 4 marine squads at the river. This was done between the 35-40 min round mark as I responded 7 minutes after Xiphos called me in to check on the metarush and I got on around the 43 minute mark, Positioning all 4 squads by the river and ordering two to assault across is absolutely a metarush.

Anyway, that's the last of what I have to say on the situation. It's back up to TR if he decides there's more that needs to be said.

[Youbar]

I posted the announcement you made above. That was the announcement you made over the Sulaco general chat.

Here's the announcement you made after the guy was already executed and after I started PMing you asking about the announcement you never made.
[20:17:16]SAY: Youbar/(Wilhelm Eberhardt) has made Command Announcement: Command Announcement - Private First Class Shick, for attempted murder, has been sentenced to death and will be executed. All defensive efforts planet-side should be focused on the Nexus. Abandon engineering and LZ2. - Wilhelm Eberhardt (Commander)
This is still an improper announcement for an execution. You failed to follow execution protocol in both the improper announcement and the proper announcement.

I never heard an announcement about it, and the CO was nowhere to be seen.

Abruptly, you've gone from, "I never heard an announcement," to "the announcement was made, but only after the individual was executed." Let me clarify something for you here: I informed the military police that the execution would go ahead, and while I was transitioning from the hangar, after making an informal announcement, to the bridge, where I made a formal announcement, it had already been carried out by the time I arrived at the execution chamber. It is their fault, not mine, and when you pin the responsibility of carrying out the execution on them, and not me, you'll realise that all I did was neglect to name the execution, which seems like a really, really small thing that you only need a reminder for.
If it was any other player, you'd have simply given them a reminder that they didn't quite follow the requirements for an announcement, but you're on my ass simply because you think I intentionally "meta-rushed", and consistently labelling me as incompetent.

Furthermore, you keep blaming this on the MPs and saying how you didn't have control over the MP team because you were micromanaging the ground marines.

Yes, I do keep blaming this on the military police, because it was their fault. Forgetting to name the executioner while under stress doesn't quite warrant a warning when you carried out the rest of the protocol.

The Commander shouldn't be micromanaging the ground marines. You had a full BO and XO team. You should have absolutely been in control of the MP team if a full MP team, BO, and CL can all gather for an execution.

This is the line between incompetent, and competent. A commander should always be aware of the situation on the battlefield, and there's no greater way of achieving this than watching all squad channels and ensuring rapid responses can be made to new situations. Surprisingly, none of the bridge officers, nor the corporate liasion, nor the military police were doing this, so that might enlighten you as to why I might have arrived a bit late. The fact still stands that the military police were authorised to organise the execution, but not carry it out.

As for the metarush, you've just stated that you positioned all 4 marine squads at the river. This was done between the 35-40 min round mark as I responded 7 minutes after Xiphos called me in to check on the metarush and I got on around the 43 minute mark, Positioning all 4 squads by the river and ordering two to assault across is absolutely a metarush.

I did not position all four marine squads at the river. Stop saying this! Alpha was at engineering, and deployed five minutes early. Bravo was at the nexus establishing secondary fortifications. Charlie was supposed to be holding medical, but Delta had to move with them due to a lack of a squad leader. I find it ridiculous that you keep saying that I meta-rushed, but I was responding to a very visible threat skirmishing my marines. I do not care if there's an arbitrary 30-45 minute timer before marines can cross the river - nobody should ever have to sit by and twiddle their thumbs, pretending that there's nothing right on the opposite bank when marines are being visibly dragged across it.
If there are constant reports over squad channel, such as, "They're coming from the caves to the north," or, "They just threw a crab at Mick and dragged him across the river," or, "The squad monitor shows a heavy concentration of conscious marines at North-West Caves," unfortunately I believe it's the responsibility of any good commander to respond to those reports, no matter how early in the round it is.
It hardly constituted a meta-rush to begin with, either, because 14 marines were sent across the river, which the Xenomorphs numbered at equally. There were 100 players, 70 Sulaco crew, 40 marines deployed, so at least half of those are observors, and the other half aliens.The other squads were ordered to hold behind it.

[Feweh]

Resolved

[TR-BlackDragon]

Im re looking into this, And will be reposting later this evening.

[TR-BlackDragon]

Alright so I just finished pulling the individual logs from the massive log file.

Code: Select all

[20:09:56]SAY: ........./Youbar : Yes. Go ahead.
[20:09:53]SAY: Unknown (as Easter Kelly)/Mephilis : Can we PLEASE execute him?
[20:10:03]SAY: Unknown (as Easter Kelly)/Mephilis : SWEET.
[20:10:07]SAY: Paul Sullivan/CommunistUser : Ah, yes! Dustin shick on the accounts of attempted murder, assualt and yes... A lot more...
[20:10:11]SAY: ........./Youbar : Order it on the radio.
[20:10:14]SAY: Unknown (as Easter Kelly)/Mephilis : Nah, let's space him.
[20:10:22]OOC: (LOCAL) Paul Sullivan/CommunistUser : You have to make an announcement...
[20:13:07]ATTACK: Hunter bob/(Jonathan Miller) punched ........./(Dustin Shick)
[20:13:08]ATTACK: Hunter bob/(Jonathan Miller) punched ........./(Dustin Shick)
[20:13:11]SAY: Unknown (as Easter Kelly)/Mephilis : CO, can you announce Dustin's execution and come watch it?
[20:13:31]SAY: ........./Youbar : What is his rank and fully name?[20:13:34]
ATTACK: Dustin Shick (.........) was hit by a the pepperspray, thrown by Paul Sullivan (communistuser) 
[20:13:48]SAY: Unknown (as Easter Kelly)/Mephilis : Fuck knows what rank he was, but his name is Dustin Shick.
[20:13:52]ATTACK: Hunter bob/(Jonathan Miller) attacked ........./(Dustin Shick) with stunbaton (INTENT: HURT) (DAMTYE: BRUTE)
[20:13:52]ATTACK: Hunter bob/(Jonathan Miller) stunned ........./(Dustin Shick) with the the stunbaton.
[20:13:53]ATTACK: Hunter bob/(Jonathan Miller) attacked ........./(Dustin Shick) with stunbaton (INTENT: HURT) (DAMTYE: BRUTE)
[20:13:53]ATTACK: Hunter bob/(Jonathan Miller) stunned ........./(Dustin Shick) with the the stunbaton.
[20:13:56]EMOTE: Dustin Shick/......... : <B>Dustin Shick</B> screams!
[20:13:57]ATTACK: Hunter bob/(Jonathan Miller) attacked ........./(Dustin Shick) with stunbaton (INTENT: HURT) (DAMTYE: BRUTE)
[20:13:57]EMOTE: Dustin Shick/......... : <B>Dustin Shick</B> screams!
[20:13:57]ATTACK: Hunter bob/(Jonathan Miller) stunned ........./(Dustin Shick) with the the stunbaton.
[20:13:58]ATTACK: Hunter bob/(Jonathan Miller) attacked ........./(Dustin Shick) with stunbaton (INTENT: HURT) (DAMTYE: BRUTE)
[20:13:58]ATTACK: Hunter bob/(Jonathan Miller) stunned ........./(Dustin Shick) with the the stunbaton.
[20:14:02]ATTACK: Hunter bob/(Jonathan Miller) attacked ........./(Dustin Shick) with stunbaton (INTENT: HURT) (DAMTYE: BRUTE)
[20:14:02]ATTACK: Hunter bob/(Jonathan Miller) stunned ........./(Dustin Shick) with the the stunbaton.
[20:14:08]ATTACK: Hunter bob/(Jonathan Miller) attacked ........./(Dustin Shick) with stunbaton (INTENT: HURT) (DAMTYE: BRUTE)
[20:14:08]ATTACK: Hunter bob/(Jonathan Miller) stunned ........./(Dustin Shick) with the the stunbaton.
[20:14:12]ACCESS: Logout: ........./(Dustin Shick)
[20:14:17]SAY: Jonathan Miller/Hunter bob : Fuck you!
[20:14:47]SAY: ........./Youbar : Private First Class Shick, for attempted murder, has been sentenced to death and will be executed.
[20:14:51]SAY: ........./Youbar : Go ahead.
[20:15:17]ADMIN: PM: Slc97)->Youbar/(.........): what's with the execution that happened?
[20:15:40]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(.........)->Slc97/(): The guy shot a military police officer nineteen times, attempting to murder them, and a few other people from what I've heard.
[20:16:08]ADMIN: PM: Slc97/()->Youbar/(.........): So where was the announcement about him being executed with the charges?
[20:16:21]ADMIN: PM: Youbar/(.........)->Slc97/(.........): It was over Sulaco common chat. I'm getting to the proper announcement now
[20:17:16]SAY: Youbar/(.........) has made Command Announcement: Command Announcement - Private First Class Shick, for attempted murder, has been sentenced to death and will be executed. All defensive efforts planet-side should be focused on the Nexus. Abandon engineering and LZ2. - ......... (Commander)

So as you can see above. You did fail to follow proper protocal, From what i can see, you did say go ahead a few times but that could be for other things that were going on so ill give the benefit of the dought there. How ever, You didnt follow proper procedure, Someone even said something to you via looc and even IC, So as i told you in private the Job ban will remain for a minimum of a week on faith you will re-read all the rules including the Marine Law Book rules.

Also The one who killed the target of execution will be job banned from MP's For failure to follow proper procedure.

And for the final note, the reason for this report. I find that SLC did properly investigate this but had missed the fact that the said MP above was at fault for not following procedures and i will talk to him about keeping a more closer eye on MP's in the future.