Griefing MT Lily White/NoahKirchner; Threw Knives Into Disposals Network

[Surrealistik]

Your Byond Key: Surrealistik

Your Character Name: Sur 'Bombbro' Lahzar


Accused Byond Key(if known): NoahKirchner? This is his forum name.


Character Name: Lily White


Approximate time and date of the incident (Central US Time for fastest results):
12:53-1:53 AM


What rule(s) were broken:

Griefing by repeatedly cycling knives and junk through a ship spanning disposals network, causing mass injury.


Description of the incident:

Shitler idiot threw knives into a Sulaco spanning disposals transport network, causing mass injuries and consequently convincing command to assign someone to dismantle it; as a consequence, he wasted my time and ruined my round.

Further, not only did this asshole grief, but he seems to be proud of his juvenile behaviour.


Evidence (screenshots, logs, etc):

http://imgur.com/dVTkQSD

http://imgur.com/nn4zok7

http://imgur.com/7zB6E1Z


How you would punish the accused:

Week or longer temp ban from server. Month or long MT/CE job ban if possible so I don't have to work with this asshole for at least that long.

[NoahKirchner]

The Ckey you listed is correct.

My plan with that was to get the disposal network shut down because it was breaking bones. The knives didn't actually hit anybody because they only launched whenever you launched, and they launched INFRONT of you, so they just got stuck at the end of it (where I was collecting them), but it looked scary and got it shut down.

About the putting other stuff into disposals, other stuff was getting put in constantly and people were getting injured by the pipes. The knives were likely the least of the concern because they only had one cycle and, to my knowledge, hit nobody. Then because knives are scary people shut down the network (which is good because it was spanning the entire ship and almost unavoidable, causing people injuries like broken feet at possibly incredibly inopportune moments, as well as pushing OTHER people into it who were just standing by)

[Surrealistik]

The Ckey you listed is correct.

My plan with that was to get the disposal network shut down because it was breaking bones. The knives didn't actually hit anybody because they only launched whenever you launched, and they launched INFRONT of you, so they just got stuck at the end of it (where I was collecting them), but it looked scary and got it shut down.

Bullshit. You didn't break your first bone until well after you spammed (and kept cycling) the network with knives (and even then I'm not convinced it was actually from the network itself; that was the only fracture reported from its 'use' furthermore). And yes, your knives injured multiple people who were explicitly complaining about them.

Furthermore, straight segment pipes shouldn't even be causing brute damage; only corners (which the network didn't have).

The network could be easily circumvented; I made sure of that use was entirely optional; at no point was any marine forced to use it given the nature of its layout; there was always an alternate path.

Lastly, you obviously took great glee in griefing people and causing mass misery.

If your intent was to get the network dismantled, the obvious first step would be to approach the CO/XO or me, and you did neither.

[NoahKirchner]

Bullshit. You didn't break your first bone until well after you spammed the network with knives (and even then I'm not convinced it was actually from the network itself).

Furthermore, straight segment pipes shouldn't even be causing brute damage; only corners.

Lastly, you obviously took great glee in griefing people and causing mass misery.

If your intent was to get the network dismantled, the obvious first step would be to approach the CO/XO or me, and you did neither.

I took glee in it because saying you put knives in it is metal as fuck, but I tested it beforehand with myself to ensure that it didn't cause any injury to people in it. Also, I didn't break my bone but I DID take brute damage before that whenever nothing else was being brought in with me, the bone was just from repeatedly going through it and the brute from that building up over time.

I didn't contact the CO or XO because they were rather onboard with it up to that point, going as far as to tell an MP to lay off telling you to deconstruct it, so I made it look dangerous and gloated about it so people would decide to take it down and stop needlessly causing brute damage for transport they didn't need.

As I said earlier, it was not my intent to ruin your round at all, and I'm sorry that I did. I just tried to take actions ingame to get rid of a system which was actively harming people (granted, doing something that sounds really dangerous but that was in all honesty not that bad, hence why I joked and bragged(?) about it).

[Surrealistik]

I took glee in it because saying you put knives in it is metal as fuck, but I tested it beforehand with myself to ensure that it didn't cause any injury to people in it. Also, I didn't break my bone but I DID take brute damage before that whenever nothing else was being brought in with me, the bone was just from repeatedly going through it and the brute from that building up over time.

No I fucking didn't. The moment you told me, I called your shit out you insufferable lying ass.

I didn't contact the CO or XO because they were rather onboard with it up to that point, going as far as to tell an MP to lay off telling you to deconstruct it, so I made it look dangerous and gloated about it so people would decide to take it down and stop needlessly causing brute damage for transport they didn't need.

#1: They didn't have to use the network; it was explicitly constructed to be circumvented if desired.

#2: The only source of brute damage should have been from junk cycled into the network. Chutes, trunks and straight pipe segments should _not_ be causing brute damage; only corner pieces which the network didn't use.

#3: Regardless of whether the CO/XO seemed to be fine with it, the first resort is _not_ dumping a shit ton of knives into the network; how is anything like that even remotely IC? Is your character some kind of lunatic? You should've been brigged for the rest of the round.

As I said earlier, it was not my intent to ruin your round at all, and I'm sorry that I did. I just tried to take actions ingame to get rid of a system which was actively harming people (granted, doing something that sounds really dangerous but that was in all honesty not that bad, hence why I joked and bragged(?) about it).

No one complained about it until you started (and continued) to saturate the network with knives. You're clearly not sorry at all; you bragged about it both during and after.

[NoahKirchner]

No I fucking didn't. The moment you told me, I called your shit out you insufferable lying shit.

#1: They didn't have to use the network; it was explicitly constructed to be circumvented if desired.

#2: The only source of brute damage should have been from junk cycled into the network. Chutes, trunks and straight pipe segments should _not_ be causing brute damage.

#3: Regardless of whether the CO/XO seemed to be fine with it, the first resort is _not_ dumping a shit ton of knives into the network; how is anything like that even remotely IC? Is your character some kind of lunatic? You should've been brigged for the rest of the round.


No one complained about it until you started (and continued) to saturate the network with knives.

I was brigged for the rest of the round, and while it was able to be circumvented, if you were leaving the medbay (as an example, happened in other places), you could potentially be swept up into it and dragged along to take brute damage. As far as the pipes go, even if they weren't causing the brute damage (99% sure they were), things could have been swept up from the ground and brought through the network by people going past (which would have only very VERY rarely caused damage, as before I did that I went through with some to make sure that I wasn't going to be killing the entire crew), and could have injured them that way.

More specifically with knives in disposal networks, I've worked with this before extensively whilst trying to build a knife cannon. The knives coming out do as much damage as a tile (the stuff that was going throughout the network anyways from people being sucked up into them) and only had the ability to stick in people if they were being shot out (IE someone ruined a part of the network and shot them, or at the end where I stood to collect the knives), so the knives themselves were not causing any more damage than the 3 or 4 other people I watched loading in junk to be shot around.


As far as the sorry bit though, I said that I'm sorry for ruining your round twice now. I did, however, make a joke about my actions being "metal" because that sounds incredibly dangerous (knives in disposals). I wasn't attempting to brag that I ruined your round, rather make a joke about my action in the round.

[Surrealistik]

I was brigged for the rest of the round, and while it was able to be circumvented, if you were leaving the medbay (as an example, happened in other places), you could potentially be swept up into it and dragged along to take brute damage. As far as the pipes go, even if they weren't causing the brute damage (99% sure they were), things could have been swept up from the ground and brought through the network by people going past (which would have only very VERY rarely caused damage, as before I did that I went through with some to make sure that I wasn't going to be killing the entire crew), and could have injured them that way.

So in otherwords, you lied in an attempt to justify your actions.

Further, I actually stopped to remove all the junk passing through the system on three separate occasions, including your knives which were covered with blood and clearly had been doing damage. Barring deliberately cycling crap through the network, it should have been injury free.

More specifically with knives in disposal networks, I've worked with this before extensively whilst trying to build a knife cannon. The knives coming out do as much damage as a tile (the stuff that was going throughout the network anyways from people being sucked up into them) and only had the ability to stick in people if they were being shot out (IE someone ruined a part of the network and shot them, or at the end where I stood to collect the knives), so the knives themselves were not causing any more damage than the 3 or 4 other people I watched loading in junk to be shot around.

Dude, you dumped knives into a pneumatic transport network that the marines were using extensively, and you kept cycling them through; even if OOCly this is true and they don't do much damage (which doesn't seem to be the case given several complaints), what your character did was blatantly psychotic/malicious and not at all reasonable.

[NoahKirchner]

So in otherwords, you lied in an attempt to justify your actions.

Further, I actually stopped to remove all the junk passing through the system on three separate occasions, including your knives which were covered with blood and clearly had been doing damage. Barring deliberately cycling crap through the network, it should have been injury free.



Dude, you dumped knives into a pneumatic transport network that the marines were using extensively, and you kept cycling them through; even if OOCly this is true and they don't do much damage (which doesn't seem to be the case given several complaints), what your character did was blatantly psychotic/malicious and not at all reasonable.

IC, yes, I 100% totally lied to justify my actions, but out of character, no, I did not. If they were covered in blood then they may have collided with a bystander, much as the tiles did, and did some damage and for that I apologise and accept that I dun fucked up, but the damage they did was minimal and equal(ish, dunno actual numbers) to the amount of damage you'd recieve from all of the other stuff in the network.

While yes, if I would have just dumped them in with no previous testing IC it would have been psychotic, but I took a trip or two around with the knives infront of my first to confirm that they weren't gonna kill people in mid air, or maim them at all (despite running into people the knives didn't damage them on multiple occasions and I never saw them do it inbetween the chutes, the only time they damaged people was when they damaged me at the very end of it where they shot out as I was trying to collect them afterwards(which may have been the source of the blood)). It was not a psychotic "I wanna kill people" action, but a risk (jailtime) that my character took for the betterment of the ship.

[Surrealistik]

IC, yes, I 100% totally lied to justify my actions, but out of character, no, I did not. If they were covered in blood then they may have collided with a bystander, much as the tiles did, and did some damage and for that I apologise and accept that I dun fucked up, but the damage they did was minimal and equal(ish, dunno actual numbers) to the amount of damage you'd recieve from all of the other stuff in the network.

You lied about it being impossible to circumvent; about people being forced to use it.

While yes, if I would have just dumped them in with no previous testing IC it would have been psychotic, but I took a trip or two around with the knives infront of my first to confirm that they weren't gonna kill people in mid air, or maim them at all (despite running into people the knives didn't damage them on multiple occasions and I never saw them do it inbetween the chutes, the only time they damaged people was when they damaged me at the very end of it where they shot out as I was trying to collect them afterwards(which may have been the source of the blood)). It was not a psychotic "I wanna kill people" action, but a risk (jailtime) that my character took for the betterment of the ship.

What sane, normal person ICly would do what you did? Who would think, as a first resort, to draw concern to a transport network's safety by repeatedly feeding knives into it? Clearly you knew that there would be injuries or this tactic wouldn't be effective at intimidating Command into dismantling the network (and I honestly don't even believe this was your motive as the complaints and injury were minimal until you started dumping shit into the thing). Clearly people were injured because enough complaints about the network were subsequently generated. Further, if the intercom chatter was to be believed, apparently some people got badly fucked up by these knives despite your claim that they do minimal harm.

In an absolute best case scenario, if you're to be believed and taken at face value, you acted in a completely OOC fashion (no one ICly would act as you did; the CM doesn't recruit psychotics, much less into Maintenance where you work with what is essentially a nuclear reactor) in an attempt to shut down a network that was A: optional, and B: was causing minimal crew harm. You then increased that level of harm such that Command decided to dismantle it.

More likely you were just straight up out to grief and saw a great opportunity to do so by running junk/knives through the disposals network I constructed for the benefit of the crew.

[NoahKirchner]

You lied about it being impossible to circumvent; about people being forced to use it.



What sane, normal person ICly would do what you did? Who would think, as a first resort, to draw concern to a transport network's safety by repeatedly feeding knives into it? Clearly you knew that there would be injuries or this tactic wouldn't be effective at intimidating Command into dismantling the network (and I honestly don't even believe this was your motive as the complaints and injury were minimal until you started dumping shit into the thing). Clearly people were injured because enough complaints about the network were subsequently generated. Further, if the intercom chatter was to be believed, apparently some people got badly fucked up by these knives despite your claim that they do minimal harm.

In an absolute best case scenario, if you're to be believed and taken at face value, you acted in a completely OOC fashion (no one ICly would act as you did; the CM doesn't recruit psychotics, much less into Maintenance where you work with what is essentially a nuclear reactor) in an attempt to shut down a network that was A: optional, and B: was causing minimal crew harm. You then increased that level of harm such that Command decided to dismantle it.

More likely you were just straight up out to grief and saw a great opportunity to do so by running junk/knives through the disposals network I constructed for the benefit of the crew.

As far as the circumvent thing goes, all of the major doorways and the likes were replaced by the chutes, and walking in the way of the chutes when someone was coming through would push you into it. While yes, it was technically possible to get around the ship without taking it, you had to dodge people coming through ((ESPECIALLY on the way to the bridge, where you had to walk inbetween a completely impassable section if there was anybody in the loop, lest you be pushed in and sucked around)), it was not particularly easy to avoid. That was poor phrasing on my part, and I apologize.

If the command won't allow a military police officer (who was upholding the law completely) to shut you down, then why would they allow some rando to? Furthermore, people were complaining about the safety over comms before I did that on multiple occasions, so obviously words were doing nothing. As far as the knives go, that was not what caused people to freak out. After I did that, I told you so you said something over comms, then screamed about it as much as I could over comms (and so did other people because I told them as well) to the point where it got shut down. The knives were not noticed whenever I put them through, only whenever I screamed about them as they came out and I collected them again, so they obviously didn't do much (if any) damage. What I would assume is that they were attributing the harm done by the pipes and other objects that got swept up to the knives, because people continued to complain about knives in the loop long after I had collected them again (they all went in one stack with whoever went through next making 'em easy to collect them all), so people were either attributing damage to the knives wrongfully, or lying about it (which I doubt because they'd have no reason to).

As far as your claims that I was just "out to grief", putting knives in a disposal system is one of the worst *possible* ways to grief. Especially if you then rat yourself out over it. With OOC knowledge I knew that the knives would do minimum, if any damage and as such if I was looking to fuck with people that'd be low on my list. The knives were put in specifically to further my ingame and in character goals and were not intended to cause any harm to other players. (Even if it had gone wrong, the worst that'd happen is a little bit of brute damage and having to potentially pull out a knife, throwing knives don't do much damage at all unless you're walking/running with them)

[Surrealistik]

As far as the circumvent thing goes, all of the major doorways and the likes were replaced by the chutes, and walking in the way of the chutes when someone was coming through would push you into it. While yes, it was technically possible to get around the ship without taking it, you had to dodge people coming through ((ESPECIALLY on the way to the bridge, where you had to walk inbetween a completely impassable section if there was anybody in the loop, lest you be pushed in and sucked around)), it was not particularly easy to avoid. That was poor phrasing on my part, and I apologize.

Sophistic nonsense.

First of all, you have pretty prominent auditory warnings of any approaching people in the network. It is audible for a good 10 or seconds away before someone is coming out of a tube flying at you.

Second, no, every major doorway was not in fact replaced by a chute; one (1) doorway leading to/from the mess hall on each side was substituted, while the other could be safely moved through without risk of being pushed into a chute.

Third, the bridge was approachable from the south hall without _any_ risk of being swept into the network, while there was one segment in the north hall by Medbay where you had plenty of auditory warning as above to avoid being caught.

If the command won't allow a military police officer (who was upholding the law completely) to shut you down, then why would they allow some rando to? Furthermore, people were complaining about the safety over comms before I did that on multiple occasions, so obviously words were doing nothing. As far as the knives go, that was not what caused people to freak out. After I did that, I told you so you said something over comms, then screamed about it as much as I could over comms (and so did other people because I told them as well) to the point where it got shut down. The knives were not noticed whenever I put them through, only whenever I screamed about them as they came out and I collected them again, so they obviously didn't do much (if any) damage. What I would assume is that they were attributing the harm done by the pipes and other objects that got swept up to the knives, because people continued to complain about knives in the loop long after I had collected them again (they all went in one stack with whoever went through next making 'em easy to collect them all), so people were either attributing damage to the knives wrongfully, or lying about it (which I doubt because they'd have no reason to).

If Command didn't let an MP who as a military police officer doesn't know shit about engineering shut down the Chief Engineer, chances are you, as an MT, someone trained in engineering, would probably have a better chance at persuading him if you really felt it was so unsafe. There is no way you can logically conclude the first resort ICly to draw attention to its dangers would be to toss and keep tossing knives into a pneumatic transport network; nice self-fulfilling prophesy idiot. You told me because you thought it was a great lark, and that I would have a sense of humour about it, as opposed to being horrified at the fact that it was going to ruin all my fun and time investment in that round (which it did you colossal ass). I'm pretty sure these people were attributing the harm correctly and you're just lying yet again to cover your ass.

As far as your claims that I was just "out to grief", putting knives in a disposal system is one of the worst *possible* ways to grief. Especially if you then rat yourself out over it. With OOC knowledge I knew that the knives would do minimum, if any damage and as such if I was looking to fuck with people that'd be low on my list. The knives were put in specifically to further my ingame and in character goals and were not intended to cause any harm to other players. (Even if it had gone wrong, the worst that'd happen is a little bit of brute damage and having to potentially pull out a knife, throwing knives don't do much damage at all unless you're walking/running with them)

Presumably you're not looking to be outright banned in the way you would be for blatant grief that takes someone or multiple people out of a round outright; you thought you could game this, and you're trying to do so right now. That you would claim an action like this is somehow a rational and believable IC action is unbelievable and really speaks to how completely disconnected you are from any sense of propriety. Clearly you intended to cause harm, and clearly you did cause harm.

[Casany]

Break it up people!

[slc97]

Alright, let me read through all of this. I've called in our staff engineering expert. When he gets back to me, I'll report my opinion on this issue.

[Rain7x]

I feel like I should note that last night Noah asked me over ahelp if he could build a disposals network below deck, and I told him it was fine as long as he got it approved by the CE and he didn't break atmos.

[Eenkogneeto]

As a semi-related note, You /do/ take brute damage from /any/ time spent in disposals. Though this system only did maybe 5-10 brute going from brief to canteen, it would still break bones and cause bloodloss (infact i remember there being drips of blood /everywhere/) so it wasn't entirely harmless, but that's not what the report is about.

[Surrealistik]

As a semi-related note, You /do/ take brute damage from /any/ time spent in disposals. Though this system only did maybe 5-10 brute going from brief to canteen, it would still break bones and cause bloodloss (infact i remember there being drips of blood /everywhere/) so it wasn't entirely harmless, but that's not what the report is about.

I traveled from Engineering to the west end of Briefing near the main ladders without taking any damage.

Further, I'm pretty sure fractures require exceeding a brute threshold of 15 for feet/hands, 20 for legs/arms, 30 for the groin, and 40 for the head/torso.

Drips of blood are probably explained by the junk/knives cycled through which kept hitting people.

[InterroLouis]

I went through the entire system several times, because for one it was fun. I didn't take any damage except for the times when I move myself out of the system path and hit a window, and when I collided with items that had been put into the system.

[Feweh]

Heres my issue.

If youre going to make these type of things that arent really intended for the server.. you cant expect Admins/Mods to then ensure players dont break, sabotage or destroy it.

Its kind of an IC issue with MPs if someone is putting dangerous objects into a disposal unit that you turned into a rollercoaster.


That being said though, Ive really had enough of Noah fucking around as a MT/CE and getting arrested every round. So that will for sure be dealt with as this is a every round thing.

[Surrealistik]

Heres my issue.

If youre going to make these type of things that arent really intended for the server.. you cant expect Admins/Mods to then ensure players dont break, sabotage or destroy it.

Its kind of an IC issue with MPs if someone is putting dangerous objects into a disposal unit that you turned into a rollercoaster.


That being said though, Ive really had enough of Noah fucking around as a MT/CE and getting arrested every round. So that will for sure be dealt with as this is a every round thing.

C'mon, do you _really_ think throwing knives (and repeatedly at that) into a high speed pneumatic transport network is an IC action? What sane person would do something like that? That shit is straight up OOC grief man.

Also glad to hear it.

[Feweh]

C'mon, do you _really_ think throwing knives (and repeatedly at that) into a high speed pneumatic transport network is an IC action? What sane person would do something like that? That shit is straight up OOC grief man.

Also glad to hear it.

What kind of sane person would create a system like you did during a mission with hostile aliens killing their friends down bellow.

If you create things that arent really intended and people fuck with it, its a IC issue.

[Surrealistik]

What kind of sane person would create a system like you did during a mission with hostile aliens killing their friends down bellow.

If you create things that arent really intended and people fuck with it, its a IC issue.

The kind of sane person who's building something that's actually of benefit to the crew and helps them move rapidly through the ship as opposed to y'know, getting sharp objects flung everywhere throughout the Sulaco either for the lulz (most likely), or to 'warn' Command of the dangers of the transport system (which is ridiculous since this idiot caused the danger to begin with).

[NoahKirchner]

I feel like I should note that last night Noah asked me over ahelp if he could build a disposals network below deck, and I told him it was fine as long as he got it approved by the CE and he didn't break atmos.

That was a different round, this was a bit later in the night.

[NoahKirchner]

I've re-read some of the points I made and I will admit that my actions were not IC at all, no sane marine would do such a thing.

[Jroinc1]

Okay. As the engineering expert called, I can state reliably that a system with only straight pipes will cause no to minimal damage.
It should cause no damage, but I've seen times where odd interactions/someone in the way will cause minor (2-5) brute.
Throwing knives in... is a bad thing and will make a safe system a dangerous one... duh.

From a character witness standpoint, I've seen Sur build these systems before, and without exception, they're safe. I cannot judge this SPECIFIC one (Unless someone has screenshots), but going by those I've seen before, and his many other drugs/machines/inventions, it will not hurt users unless tampered with.

Noah.

I'm disappointed in you.
You saw someone devote a considerable chunk of their round to making something unusual and wonderful out of engineering. You're one of the few people with more knowledge of disposals piping than me, and SHOULD have recognized that it was safe. You could have helped him, or recommended changes to make it safer, or found something else to do, or even tried to campaign against it nonviolently IC.

But you instead chose to destroy his hard work AND raise public opinion against engineering. You injured marines through your own actions, NOT his system, and blamed it on him. You took his creation, and smashed him in the face with it.

Every time something like this happens, people like you, me, and Sur lose a little bit of freedom to do what we want with engineering. Now, disposals transit systems are gonna be seen as "unsafe" by the general playerbase and might get him arrested in the future. A hell of a lot of engineering already has a bad rap (secondary engines, atmos bombs, anything with tcomms...), and as an experienced player, I'd have thought you'd have respected his work.
I was wrong.

My suggestion to you is to take some time off. Don't play engineering, or any engineering-related jobs for a long while. Think about what you can do with it to help people, and be a good player. Get rid of some of the meming and shitlery that I've seen creeping into your playstyle.
Learn the difference between what you CAN do and what you SHOULD do with your system mastery.
You have the potential to be ( and HAVE been) a great MT and CE, so don't waste it on ruining others rounds.

[McRipfist]

I'd like to point out that Noah built a similar system of pipes within around 24 hours of this incident. He did not get to finish his due to round end.