Marines shouldn't just lie in a nest

Szunti · Post by **Szunti** » 17 Dec 2016, 06:06

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary):
Nesting is not fun for anyone, so here is a crazy idea: you can resist out of nests quicker, but if you do it on your own (not released by another marine) you lose your backpack, belt and weapon on your armor. So basicly you are left with knife and what is in your pockets and armor. After you lose these, you can't get nested again or just for a couple seconds.
Related: M4A3 should fit into armor again, now I can put it only into backpack.

Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole):
Sentinels jobs changing from watching lying hosts to playing with the lightly armed. Who wouldn't like it?
Marines can fight (although with only a slight chance to kill xenos, but marines should kill xenos before they are nested, shouldn't they?) instead of just lying in a nest.

Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc):
Most fun events as a nest watcher is when a host gets out of its nest somehow, but doesn't SADAR/blow up everything around themself. For example one round I was a hivelord and when I went back to hive I found a host having only a knife "playing" with a badly injured sentinel. Then we started to chase it. It was fun for me I guess for the sentinel and the marine looc-d he liked it too. Why can't every round be like that?
A marine could have a grenade in pocket, M4A3 in his armor and the knife.
The backpack, belt and weapon even with mag harness would get destroyed or lost forever in the nest, not just dropped. If it was only dropped that would force a sentinel to acid them and stunlock you until eg. your SADAR gets melted. But the main idea is to create an environment where sentinels don't have to stunlock or cornerspat you till you burst.

MrJJJ · Post by **MrJJJ** » 17 Dec 2016, 06:07

Szunti wrote:Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary):
Nesting is not fun for anyone, so here is a crazy idea: you can resist out of nests quicker, but if you do it on your own (not released by another marine) you lose your backpack, belt and weapon on your armor.

No, this is essentially bringing back stripping for xenos, and if you got a sentinel 24/7, and no mag harness, you will have your backpack, belt and weapon melted and about as much defense as a survivor

Szunti · Post by **Szunti** » 17 Dec 2016, 06:37

That's the point, to have as much defense as a survivor. Or you can be cornerspat 24/7. Is that better? You should have a clear disadvantage to a xeno after you are nested. Kill xenos before you get captured, not after.

YungCuz · Post by **YungCuz** » 17 Dec 2016, 06:47

Remember you can't really fight back regardless because Xeno meme tactics.

MrJJJ · Post by **MrJJJ** » 17 Dec 2016, 06:55

Szunti wrote:That's the point, to have as much defense as a survivor. Or you can be cornerspat 24/7. Is that better? You should have a clear disadvantage to a xeno after you are nested. Kill xenos before you get captured, not after.

You do realize you will be cornerspat anyway?

Szunti · Post by **Szunti** » 17 Dec 2016, 07:10

But you will get up unless they spit you constantly, which I think drains plasma eventually. Also I edited the first post, I wasn't clear. The items wouldn't just be dropped but also destroyed. Drop is just a click on the floor instead of your suit. Sentinel acid melts so slow you could pick it up and still fight with it almost until your burst.

MrJJJ · Post by **MrJJJ** » 17 Dec 2016, 07:21

Szunti wrote:But you will get up unless they spit you constantly, which I think drains plasma eventually. Also I edited the first post, I wasn't clear. The items wouldn't just be dropped but also destroyed. Drop is just a click on the floor instead of your suit. Sentinel acid melts so slow you could pick it up and still fight with it almost until your burst.

They do spit you constantly, they can spit you for almost half a minute before they even run out, and seriously? destroyed? the fuck? and how would you pick up and fight when you keep getting spitted?

Szunti · Post by **Szunti** » 17 Dec 2016, 08:37

If the sentinel doesn't want to give you any chance, you can't do anything in 1v1. I agree. But it's not different from the current situation. And it's not a duel. You were captured, you don't deserve a duel with equal chances. Your job now is to feed the larva. But it doesn't have to be just lying in a nest and waiting.

MrJJJ · Post by **MrJJJ** » 17 Dec 2016, 08:57

Szunti wrote:If the sentinel doesn't want to give you any chance, you can't do anything in 1v1. I agree. But it's not different from the current situation. And it's not a duel. You were captured, you don't deserve a duel with equal chances. Your job now is to feed the larva. But it doesn't have to be just lying in a nest and waiting.

No, this is exactly whats gonna happen, essentially you are just making marine's escaping chances even harder for no real reason, your suggestion is still same, sentinel spits, host forever lies down, get's re-nested.

Szunti · Post by **Szunti** » 17 Dec 2016, 09:42

They can't be renested. I would even remove cornerspit. But devs said it's too difficult.

MrJJJ · Post by **MrJJJ** » 17 Dec 2016, 10:33

Szunti wrote:They can't be renested. I would even remove cornerspit. But devs said it's too difficult.

Doesn't matter if you can't even re-nest them, just tackle spam them all the way or spit them, heck, even if they have a SMG attached to them, they still highly unluckily to kill their protector, and even then, you can just let them tickle you a bit, put them down, back away, or even let them destroy their nest/walls with their gun, and then rebuild it once their down, and since their belt and backpack are gonna be gone, this means they can at max have only 4 magazines, 5 if you include the one already in, and if you are good enough with how bay12 health works, you can remove one of their feet so they can waste lots of ammo as you dodge away.

Liran343 · Post by **Liran343** » 17 Dec 2016, 13:51

how does a missing foot have anything to do with aiming?

InterroLouis · Post by **InterroLouis** » 17 Dec 2016, 14:04

-1. Mag harnesses exist for a reason. Also, how does it make sense for your belt and backpack to just *be deleted* when you pull yourself out of the nest? They're marines, they SHOULDN'T be as easy to guard as survivors.
For one thing, yes, you have cornerspitting which makes it a loooot easier to guard nested marines.
Also, let's say you get a smartgunner nested. Or yes, a Sadar. People are obviously going to be against a mechanic that instantly deletes spec weapons just because that person pulled themself out of a nest in an attempt to escape.

McRipfist · Post by **McRipfist** » 17 Dec 2016, 14:14

-1 Possibly the most Xeno-biased suggestion in awhile.

MrJJJ · Post by **MrJJJ** » 17 Dec 2016, 14:20

Liran343 wrote:how does a missing foot have anything to do with aiming?

Xenos are fast, humans are also fast, normally it can be a nuissance to tackle a human or spit him when he is moving around, and most of the time you can very much predict where his shots go and dodge easily from 6 tiles away, even if he is firing single shot, boom, profit, and he can't even block you when he is so slow

Liran343 · Post by **Liran343** » 17 Dec 2016, 16:00

MrJJJ wrote:Xenos are fast, humans are also fast, normally it can be a nuissance to tackle a human or spit him when he is moving around, and most of the time you can very much predict where his shots go and dodge easily from 6 tiles away, even if he is firing single shot, boom, profit, and he can't even block you when he is so slow

oh... I didn't think of it that way... good point.

Szunti · Post by **Szunti** » 17 Dec 2016, 16:11

I just want boring nests to go and having something fun instead. I don't care if it happens this way or another way. But I think to be fair

a nest guarding xeno should have advantage against every marine, even specs with the best weapons because some xenos already risked their life to capture you.
xenos should only exceptionally die to nested hosts because if one often die guarding, then the larva doesn't worth it.

On marine side:

the marine should be active, not in paincrit, constantly stunned or with missing limbs etc.

I forgot this part originally because I never harm hosts when I am going to nest them and I think that's the intended way by the rules.

So why I want specs to lose their harnessed SADAR? I want marines to be able to do something, not just lie, occasionally being spat and lie again. But you can't run around with a SADAR in the hive. That would break both xeno points above. Does anyone think it would be fair anyway? M41A or buckshot is still too hard. You need only a couple shots on T1 xenos and they die. And I assumed they won't try to hurt you.

EDIT:
My suggestion is basically that xeno doesn't hurt the host and the marine doesn't really have a mean to hurt the xeno, so they can play with each other. It's like a cat playing with a mouse, xeno biased. I don't see anything wrong with it. Sentinel player does it for the whole round, but it's only a small part of a marine round, so it seems logical to me to be more fun for the sentinel. And it's still an improvement for marines compared to being cornerspat.

Sad_Corn · Post by **Sad_Corn** » 17 Dec 2016, 16:50

The idea is funny, but just... no

You still can get corn splated or tackle spammed for ages, just increasing the salt ammounts...

-1

MrJJJ · Post by **MrJJJ** » 18 Dec 2016, 04:54

Szunti wrote:I just want boring nests to go and having something fun instead. I don't care if it happens this way or another way. But I think to be fair

a nest guarding xeno should have advantage against every marine, even specs with the best weapons because some xenos already risked their life to capture you.

xenos should only exceptionally die to nested hosts because if one often die guarding, then the larva doesn't worth it.
On marine side:

the marine should be active, not in paincrit, constantly stunned or with missing limbs etc.
I forgot this part originally because I never harm hosts when I am going to nest them and I think that's the intended way by the rules.

So why I want specs to lose their harnessed SADAR? I want marines to be able to do something, not just lie, occasionally being spat and lie again. But you can't run around with a SADAR in the hive. That would break both xeno points above. Does anyone think it would be fair anyway? M41A or buckshot is still too hard. You need only a couple shots on T1 xenos and they die. And I assumed they won't try to hurt you.

EDIT:
My suggestion is basically that xeno doesn't hurt the host and the marine doesn't really have a mean to hurt the xeno, so they can play with each other. It's like a cat playing with a mouse, xeno biased. I don't see anything wrong with it. Sentinel player does it for the whole round, but it's only a small part of a marine round, so it seems logical to me to be more fun for the sentinel. And it's still an improvement for marines compared to being cornerspat.

The sad truth is that boring nests are never gonna go away, xenos will always use corner spitting, will always use checker nests, and will always go out in great lengths to make sure you stay the fuck down, if you break out and kill a xeno, you deserve it, fuck the xeno if he can't put you back down when he has soooooooooo many ways to do so, and there is a much better suggestion to keep marines fighting, if xenos get something that makes marines weaker when nested, they not gonna want to "play with him" infact they just gonna keep doing the same, keeping him nested.

Also to note, this doesn't prevent cornerspitting in any way or shape or form.

Szunti · Post by **Szunti** » 18 Dec 2016, 07:50

MrJJJ wrote:The sad truth is that boring nests are never gonna go away, xenos will always use corner spitting, will always use checker nests,

This all depends on the devs. If they want to change it, have the time and know a good way to fix it, it will be fixed. We can help by making a clear suggestion where they can get ideas from.

MrJJJ wrote: and will always go out in great lengths to make sure you stay the fuck down,

When I first played CM, checker nests started to be popular. A lot of drones complained and refused to build checker nests. Only a minority of sentinels use cornerspitting now - I play mostly at lowpop, maybe it's different in highpop. I didn't use it, always opened the door and then spit, even took a bit of walk, so when marines get up they have a couple seconds. Until I realized that those seconds are used to suicide or a spec with harnessed SADAR waited on the door to open. You can't play fair against that. So please have faith in the community. If they can be fair to marines without taking much risk, I beleive most of them will.

MrJJJ wrote: if you break out and kill a xeno, you deserve it, fuck the xeno if he can't put you back down when he has soooooooooo many ways to do so,

I agree. You have a low chance to get out of the nest, but then if you are robust enough, you may be able to do something. Or you can just kill yourself, which feels like griefing. I am not robust, so I would always prefer being likely out of the nest with small chance to kill.

MrJJJ wrote: and there is a much better suggestion to keep marines fighting

I think the main reason for why checker nests are the only option now is that marines got stronger: they have harness, they have underslung grenade launchers. Xenos are forced to keep them extra secure. Marines reaction is to try to suicide, keep grenades just to mess with xenos after nested. Of course it means they need to be protected even better. And this spirals out of control. There are suggestions to make marines even stronger. But I think it will just make things worse.

MrJJJ · Post by **MrJJJ** » 18 Dec 2016, 08:16

Szunti wrote:This all depends on the devs. If they want to change it, have the time and know a good way to fix it, it will be fixed. We can help by making a clear suggestion where they can get ideas from.

Hmm, i don't know man, they haven't given b18 some boots for almost a year by now or more and haven't made it more worth it against huggers, haven't done anything to prevent nesting to be a bore (they even once made it worser with resin cuffs) or really anything that has been asked for years by now and accepted, and seem to refuse things that actually happen and need fixing (like DS gloves and boots)

Szunti wrote:
When I first played CM, checker nests started to be popular. A lot of drones complained and refused to build checker nests. Only a minority of sentinels use cornerspitting now - I play mostly at lowpop, maybe it's different in highpop. I didn't use it, always opened the door and then spit, even took a bit of walk, so when marines get up they have a couple seconds. Until I realized that those seconds are used to suicide or a spec with harnessed SADAR waited on the door to open. You can't play fair against that. So please have faith in the community. If they can be fair to marines without taking much risk, I beleive most of them will.

Oh i have faith, but xeno players in general seem to be a whole lot seperate, they don't seem very much concerned what happens to marines, and will do anything to crush them, with some xeno players (Like Toroic for example) being fairly decent people but sometimes also very good at xenos, but majority don't lean that way, and i am not exactly sure where was a area where checker nesting wasn't popular and drones complained, and i almost played this for 1 year and a half! and even took a long break which lasted a few months, so i highly doubt xenos are gonna want to be "fair" to anyone, if they are so "fair" then why do they seek to meta any marine looking slightly different? why do they seek to create "perfect" nests and chase hosts all across river to bring them back? why do they all insist on using huggers?

Szunti wrote: I agree. You have a low chance to get out of the nest, but then if you are robust enough, you may be able to do something. Or you can just kill yourself, which feels like griefing. I am not robust, so I would always prefer being likely out of the nest with small chance to kill.

I don't understand how is it griefing to kill yourself...

Szunti wrote: I think the main reason for why checker nests are the only option now is that marines got stronger: they have harness, they have underslung grenade launchers. Xenos are forced to keep them extra secure. Marines reaction is to try to suicide, keep grenades just to mess with xenos after nested. Of course it means they need to be protected even better. And this spirals out of control. There are suggestions to make marines even stronger. But I think it will just make things worse.

Back in Pre-Alpha, we had none of that stuff, yet xenos always used those because they are effective, and why would you not use something that is effective? you can easily get a host when he isint running around in a nest full of other hosts that he can free and cause a mass prison break, and there really is no real increase in security, other than cornerspitting since pre-alpha and more aliens obsessed with keeping you down.

Liran343 · Post by **Liran343** » 18 Dec 2016, 10:44

The only reason xenos build checkered style nests is because that's the only style that ‏‏currently WORKS. Back when we had resin cuffs, xenos had more leeway in their nest style because the cuffs were so overpowered... I usually built a large room with sticky resin and nests, some membranes here and there to make it look fancy. It gave hope for marines that they could escape (not that they could in the first place) and a little bit of challenge to the sentinels. But if I even think about doing it now I may get reported for trolling because it's so ineffective... I've also tried to build other styles and it didn't work out so well.

I dare anyone to make a good nest style which is also effective.

Joe4444 · Post by **Joe4444** » 20 Dec 2016, 14:34

just...no...this might possibly be one of the worst suggestions I've seen,why would a marine suddenly lose his backpack,armor and belt for pulling themselves out the nest? that's just fullblown retarded and makes absolutely no sense whatsoever,might aswell make it perma nesting.

Szunti · Post by **Szunti** » 20 Dec 2016, 15:08

Joe4444 wrote:just...no...this might possibly be one of the worst suggestions I've seen,why would a marine suddenly lose his backpack,armor and belt for pulling themselves out the nest? that's just fullblown retarded and makes absolutely no sense whatsoever,might aswell make it perma nesting.

Do you realise what happens now is practically permanesting? You just need a xeno for it. Yeah sometimes you get out because everyone left you behind and noone watches the nest, it has nothing to do with your skills or your gun.

Joe4444 · Post by **Joe4444** » 20 Dec 2016, 15:13

Szunti wrote:Do you realise what happens now is practically permanesting? You just need a xeno for it. Yeah sometimes you get out because everyone left you behind and noone watches the nest, it has nothing to do with your skills or your gun.

no....you can get out of nests if A)the drones are stupid and don't checker nest. B) the sentinel doesn't corner spit you. C)you communicate with other captured marines and get out at the same time. D)you have multiple guns that you can blast many a xeno with before they eventually avoid you. need I go on?

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