Notes appeals

[SUPERMAN112]

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary): let players appeal some of their notes

Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole): The current system promotes shady behavior by limiting tremendously the options of any player that made a little mistake but wants to be a member of the community. Now what I mean by that is say a player joins first time, new to SS13, does something stupid, gets a note/warning, now that player is thought to be a potential griefer. They then learn the game, find out how to play, and start becoming a member of the community but make a tiny mistake but because of their previous note they are noted and possibly banned, while a player without any notes would probably not even get warned. When you have notes you have a higher chance of getting more, even if your earlier notes are wrong of injustly placed. There is a check on bans but no check of notes, someone could note you for doing something totally fine (i.e. Me getting the okay from the host to do something then being noted/warned for it) but then a few months down the line nobody remembers the situation and they view the note as factual. When you limit the options of someone and leave them with zero options they are going to do some thing.... well bad. When you get a few notes you pretty much have zero chance of getting any apps, and have a greater likelihood of getting more bans and more notes, despite how old those notes may be.

So essentially here is the idea: make a warning appeal subforum, and you can only appeal a few kinds of warnings, warnings/notes corresponding with a denied appeal won't be removed, and notes/appeals on a ban cannot be appealed if the ban itself was not appealed (if the ban was appealable -over 3 hours-), and only one warning can be appealed in two months .

What these rules do are a few things, 1.) it gets rid of admins and staff needed to make the same arguments on ban appeals and warning appeals if both were denied. If a ban gets repealed then the warning can also be appealed, cause either the ban was wrong, note gets removed, or the ban was correct and they were sorry, note stays. If the player didn't appeal the ban then either the ban was right, or they didn't care to appeal it, in either case the note deserves to stay. The final time period before another warning can be applied serves to protect the note system.

The note system is in place to help identify griefers and protect the fun and enjoyment of the community, getting rid of notes is a god awful idea and the above suggestion, if implemented wrong could break the notes system and bog down the staff with more things to look into. Now the two months system makes it so that if a griefer appeals a note and gets it removed, the removal process is too slow to the point where they will rack up notes faster than they can get rid of them, leading to successive bans/a perma.

All this system will do is allow players who made a mistake an outlet to get off the train tracks to more bans, notes, and permas and make it much easier to become part of the community.

Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc):
Mentioned in the great text block
Implementation (Optional, if you have an idea how to implement it):
Mentions in the text wall

[Helgraf]

Neutral. Sounds interesting, not sure if it's plausible though.

[SUPERMAN112]

Neutral. Sounds interesting, not sure if it's plausible though.

My issue with is with all the appeals and what not the staff go through this is just gonna be another one, and even with the two month re-appeal period/limitations I still feel like there are a lot of people who would want to get rid of notes that fit the requirements, probably a lot more than people who wants to appeal bans... so maybe some more limitations are needed?

[Swagile]

Some notes are obvious newbie mistakes, but some are truly malicious or notes to simply keep an eye on a player.

Id say invalid / newbie notes should be appealable but not notes on tracking your behavior / malicious stuff like possible metagame.

[TheSpoonyCroy]

I'm going to say -1.

Its clear this suggestion is due to your recent spat with Feweh. I going to say notes from very long ago have little effect on applications unless you just suddenly return out of the blue and apply then they would probably be applicable.
Also going to call bull on this statement

while a player without any notes would probably not even get warned. When you have notes you have a higher chance of getting more, even if your earlier notes are wrong of injustly placed.

If someone is breaking a rule and the staff are aware of it, they will warn them about it and note it down (hopefully... but there is a bit inconsistency with staff at times since its something that can easily be forgotten about at drop of a hat since things happen...)

someone could note you for doing something totally fine (i.e. Me getting the okay from the host to do something then being noted/warned for it) but then a few months down the line nobody remembers the situation and they view the note as factual.

This just looks like more of an argument for having notes publicly accessible*(by that I mean a user can look up their own ingame notes at will instead of going though an admin), which is being suggested here: http://colonial-marines.com/viewtopic.p ... es#p107496. Which I'm still in favor with since fact is going through a middle man is annoying (no offense to anyone on staff, still <3 you guys) Honestly if such a feature was possible it would be awesome if our notes that are linked to our byond accounts show up on our forum account, so we can get an up to date view of our notes and if we find something is wrong, we can file a staff complaint about it to get it fixed.

Mistakes will always happen and if a note was placed where it shouldn't be, it will be removed. My prime example is Nightwolf, who I accidentally banned when I was still in staff and doing the general whole banning from resolved player reports and I accidentally gave him/her a ban which was intended for another player. He/she ended up making a ban appeal for the improper ban and it got fixed, the note was removed, and I'm still incredibly sorry that occurred since that was boneheaded mistake.

Edit: some minor grammatical and spelling fixes

[SUPERMAN112]

I'm going to say -1.

Its clear this suggestion is due to your recent spat with Feweh. I going to say notes from very long ago have little effect on applications unless you just suddenly return out of the blue and apply then they would probably be applicable.
Also going to call bull on this statement

If someone is breaking a rule and the staff are aware of it, they will warn them about it and note it down (hopefully... but there is a bit inconsistency with staff at times since its something that can easily be forgotten about at drop of a hat since things happen...)


This just looks like more of an argument for having notes publicly accessible*(by that I mean a user can look up their own ingame notes at will instead of going though an admin), which is being suggested here: http://colonial-marines.com/viewtopic.p ... es#p107496. Which I'm still in favor with since fact is going through a middle man is annoying (no offense to anyone on staff, still <3 you guys) Honestly if such a feature was possible it would be awesome if our notes that are linked to our byond accounts show up on our forum account, so we can get an up to date view of our notes and if we find something is wrong, we can file a staff complaint about it to get it fixed.

also its really nice that you appealed that, but say you didnt, what then? they wait out the ban and have a note even though they weren't really in the wrong, that is what this is more attempting to help with

Mistakes will always happen and if a note was placed where it shouldn't be, it will be removed. My prime example is Nightwolf, who I accidentally banned when I was still in staff and doing the general whole banning from resolved player reports and I accidentally gave him/her a ban which was intended for another player. He/she ended up making a ban appeal for the improper ban and it got fixed, the note was removed, and I'm still incredibly sorry that occurred since that was boneheaded mistake.

Edit: some minor grammatical and spelling fixes

I get what you're saying, not too sure how the cause of the suggestion is relevant here, this is a discussion of the idea itself.
What I meant by that "bull" statement (I will reiterate it since I didn't phrase it too well) is that if a player after being asked by an admin about doing something that is gray in terms of breaking the rules or not the majority of the time the admins will give them a pass, no notes. But if that player does something gray rule wise, AND they have notes then they will probably get it noted. It leads to a cycle or people with notes getting more notes, and a people with less notes keeping less notes. I have talked to people who have done things I have notes for and got nothing. So sometimes recent notes get slapped of for minor rules breaks that wouldn't have been applied to a player with less notes solely because of pre-existing notes.

[Nightcaper]

I was going to -1, but I'll stick with neutral on this. Like Spoony brought up, I feel this suggestion may have been made with bias due to your recent staff report. If you were new at something before but have had time to learn more afterwards and do better, and have proven it in-game, you can just appeal bans. Having some notes appealable sounds good on paper, but the reality is that every case is different, and it could just cause more trouble for staff to resolve things down the line. At the same time I can't be fully against all of it, so... again, neutral.

[SUPERMAN112]

I was going to -1, but I'll stick with neutral on this. Like Spoony brought up, I feel this suggestion may have been made with bias due to your recent staff report. If you were new at something before but have had time to learn more afterwards and do better, and have proven it in-game, you can just appeal bans. Having some notes appealable sounds good on paper, but the reality is that every case is different, and it could just cause more trouble for staff to resolve things down the line. At the same time I can't be fully against all of it, so... again, neutral.

Again don't see the relevance of the reason, why not just evaluate the idea? and yes you can appeal bans, but there is no way to get rid of notes, more notes you have the greater the likelihood of getting more/being banned despite good behavior

[DeadLantern]

This is basically me

but still a -1.

My notes saved me from a lot of other notes and bans, and for me to just appeal the ones I just got would result in even more notes.

And trust me when I say I have many notes.

My notes, when an admin views it, HAS A SCROLL BAR.

[SUPERMAN112]

This is basically me

but still a -1.

My notes saved me from a lot of other notes and bans, and for me to just appeal the ones I just got would result in even more notes.

And trust me when I say I have many notes.

My notes, when an admin views it, HAS A SCROLL BAR.

how did your notes save you from bans? positive notes are rarely put in place, are you saying you have positive notes or...? and how would appealing a note get you more? The staff aren't that passive aggressive, you appeal a ban they don't actively seek you ban you more

[Feweh]

Note appeals are not happening for many obvious reasons.

We've discussed this with head staff and we dont have the man-power or the will to pull logs over notes.

Thread locked.


Also, all your notes as definetly valid.