Update Powergaming Rules

[Zokkie]

+1 I guess because I had no idea this was powergaming either. I do this all the time as an engineer if the other engineer took the plasteel and metal. Engineering storage always has extra metal/plasteel, and I have access to it. So I thought nobody would mind if I take one stack of plasteel/metal from there, because I am supposed to have this amount if I reached the prep room in time.

What about welding kits? Is it also powergaming to have those? Usually in my squad we have one engineer carrying the sentry crate and one engineer carrying fuel to refill our welders, but these are also supplies from engineering.

Would it not be better to just remove combat engineers their access from these doors, or simply move these supplies to a location only MT/CE can reach? It gives a clear signal you aren’t supposed to be in there and taking stuff from it, and we don't have to update the rules. Because in that moment my common sense was telling me I am supposed to have one stack of plasteel/metal as a combat engineer and a room that I have access to is offering me these supplies.

[Karmac]

It's not powergamming to bring a welder kit but I normally just take an industrial welder in the belt and an upgraded welder in my pack for 120 fuel total.

[Jroinc1]

+1

This is not covered by common sense. If the MT/CE allows you to take them, then it moves from IC issue to OOC issue.

[Swagile]

Ive never been pinged for taking the huge fuel tanks filled with 1000u of welder fuel, so I don't think you would get pinged for taking a welding kit.

Considering engineers require fuel, I don't see how its powergame to grab a huge fuel source that will last the entire op, since it could be anything (ICly anyway) down there.

As for metal, I haven't been pinged either when I make my own metal via the autolathe downstairs since I usually have a combat engi buddy who literally takes fucking EVERYTHING and leaves me with nothing.

[Karmac]

Ive never been pinged for taking the huge fuel tanks filled with 1000u of welder fuel, so I don't think you would get pinged for taking a welding kit.

Considering engineers require fuel, I don't see how its powergame to grab a huge fuel source that will last the entire op, since it could be anything (ICly anyway) down there.

As for metal, I haven't been pinged either when I make my own metal via the autolathe downstairs since I usually have a combat engi buddy who literally takes fucking EVERYTHING and leaves me with nothing.

according to admuns I've talked to getting metal from an autolathe at round start IS powergamming. but that ain't listed either so who would know.

[Retro]

+1 IF you can have access to metal from engineering, you should have it, if it is a big deal they should move Metal Plasteel etc to a place combat engi's can't get it. Calling something power gaming is not fair, this should be an IC issue if anything, if the CE/MT does not give you permission, it's theft, if they do it is ok.

[Snypehunter007]

So the main argument everyone has is that you can't use common sense for the powergaming situations?

[Crab_Spider]

So the main argument everyone has is that you can't use common sense for the powergaming situations?

Yes. Common sense can't work since we're MedRP and are based on a strict outline from the start because of that.

[Swagile]

So if your taking extra materials from Engineering, why can't we let the CE deal with it by calling MP's?

When I played MP, a lot of the fun stuff that I could have handled ICly was simply handled by admins. A marine going rambo and knifing a dude? Banned, I swing by only a minute later just to drag the now SSD marine to Cryo. A shooting? Banned, same dealio.

Now simple IC issues such as material hoarding is now dealt with by admins instead of just letting MP's deal with it? Heck, it might add interesting tension if MP's start searching combat engis when they see them come out of Engineering to brig them and the squad of that combat engi get upset and try to pull something, etc.

Heck, what is the point of MP's except for the cool semi-auto shotguns if admins deal with even the simplest of issues?

[Snypehunter007]

Yes. Common sense can't work since we're MedRP and are based on a strict outline from the start because of that.

So it isn't common sense that you shouldn't take metal and other materials out of engineering storage when they (RP) exist in case Maintenance Techs and the CE need emergency metal supplies?

It isn't common RP sense that you shouldn't load up on extra supplies when you have no inclination or need to gear up with extra supplies because you have no idea what is wrong with the colony?

[Crab_Spider]

So it isn't common sense that you shouldn't take metal and other materials out of engineering storage when they (RP) exist in case Maintenance Techs and the CE need emergency metal supplies?

It isn't common RP sense that you shouldn't load up on extra supplies when you have no inclination or need to gear up with extra supplies because you have no idea what is wrong with the colony?

Getting back to you on that. In class and can't respond

[nerocavalier]

If anything, I want this to be handled with mechanics rather than OOC punishment. Here's two alternatives instead of apply warning then ban.

One: remove Combat Engineer's access to the metal and plasteel, if medics can't access the Weyland Vendors then it shouldn't be that difficult to do the same to Engineers.

Two: Make it an IC issue instead. This way MPs would actually have something to do if some cheeky Engineer wants to get some more metal along with more RP interactions. It'll also reduce the amount of things Mods would have to look out for at round start.

[Crab_Spider]

So it isn't common sense that you shouldn't take metal and other materials out of engineering storage when they (RP) exist in case Maintenance Techs and the CE need emergency metal supplies?

It isn't common RP sense that you shouldn't load up on extra supplies when you have no inclination or need to gear up with extra supplies because you have no idea what is wrong with the colony?

I made the mistake of saying that, but yeah

[Karmac]

So it isn't common sense that you shouldn't take metal and other materials out of engineering storage when they (RP) exist in case Maintenance Techs and the CE need emergency metal supplies?

It isn't common RP sense that you shouldn't load up on extra supplies when you have no inclination or need to gear up with extra supplies because you have no idea what is wrong with the colony?

>taking the absolute minimal amount of supplies to do your job when you don't know if you'll be walking into a warzone or a holiday resort. Ok.

As for the taking metal from engineering storage, there's a shit load of metal already in Engineering itself, both upper and lower, Engineering Storage ever being used by MT's just sounds ridiculous considering there's at least 300 of it in Engineering.

[Snypehunter007]

>taking the absolute minimal amount of supplies to do your job when you don't know if you'll be walking into a warzone or a holiday resort. Ok.

As for the taking metal from engineering storage, there's a shit load of metal already in Engineering itself, both upper and lower, Engineering Storage ever being used by MT's just sounds ridiculous considering there's at least 300 of it in Engineering.

And how much metal do you think you would use if there was a hull breach in say, Medbay? Or the brig? The Cargo office? Engineering itself?

[Karmac]

And how much metal do you think you would use if there was a hull breach in say, Medbay? Or the brig? The Cargo office? Engineering itself?

Gameplay wise? Not much, normally there's alot of damaged tiles and missing walls, but only a few of those walls would need to be rebuilt to stop the breach. Plus there's an autolathe for spamming as much metal as you want, Combat Engies can't use it so I don't see why the MT's wouldn't abuse it's magnificent power to eat pistols and make stacks of metal.

[Retro]

And how much metal do you think you would use if there was a hull breach in say, Medbay? Or the brig? The Cargo office? Engineering itself?

not much, less than fifty, if each girder is 4 metal, then lets say we are just sealing the out exposure to space, I would round it to 11 tiles, meaning 44 metal due to 11*4=44, if each grider needs 1 metal to make it a full wall that is sealed, we do that math, 11*1=11, so if we add the total, 44+11 we get 55, this would be a moderate breach and can grow in cost over the size and any other damage, but if it is just walls we are repairing, we can use this forumuoli

T=Tiles

C=Cost

4*t+1=C so if it was a 5 tile breach

(4*5)+(1*t)=C

4*5=20, 1*5=5

20+5=c

c=25, that is how much metal it would cost, having 300 is way too much, to begin with, and we can have a shit ton from for free at the autolathe, letting combat engi's having 60 metal, and 30 plasteel is really stupid, as well. You can only make basic defensive with 30 plasteel for barricades, and then your down to 60 metal, for false walls, tables, and racks if you do that, then you need to work on repairs, it just adds up to Combat Engi's needing more.

[Snypehunter007]

not much, less than fifty, if each girder is 4 metal, then lets say we are just sealing the out exposure to space, I would round it to 11 tiles, meaning 44 metal due to 11*4=44, if each grider needs 1 metal to make it a full wall that is sealed, we do that math, 11*1=11, so if we add the total, 44+11 we get 55, this would be a moderate breach and can grow in cost over the size and any other damage, but if it is just walls we are repairing, we can use this forumuoli

T=Tiles

C=Cost

4*t+1=C so if it was a 5 tile breach

(4*5)+(1*t)=C

4*5=20, 1*5=5

20+5=c

c=25, that is how much metal it would cost, having 300 is way too much, to begin with, and we can have a shit ton from for free at the autolathe, letting combat engi's having 60 metal, and 30 plasteel is really stupid, as well. You can only make basic defensive with 30 plasteel for barricades, and then your down to 60 metal, for false walls, tables, and racks if you do that, then you need to work on repairs, it just adds up to Combat Engi's needing more.

Talking about a meteor sized or Rasputin sized hole in the ship. Also, again, you don't need this metal AT ROUND START. You should have NO KNOWLEDGE about how much metal you need to build a "decent sized" FOB because you don't even know if you will be there for longer than a few hours depending on what is happening on the colony.

But we are getting off track about the main post, back onto that topic.

[Retro]

Talking about a meteor sized or Rasputin sized hole in the ship. Also, again, you don't need this metal AT ROUND START. You should have NO KNOWLEDGE about how much metal you need to build a "decent sized" FOB because you don't even know if you will be there for longer than a few hours depending on what is happening on the colony.

But we are getting off track about the main post, back onto that topic.

You have maps, that's how, you can plan that accordingly, even if we are going to be there for a ''few hours'' every operation starts off with a decent FOB. A good FOB allows for a fallback point, medevac, and a supply chain line. The most basic things of war and battle. If it was a ''power outage'' or a ''hazmat issue'' you can use your FOB as a quarantine site, if it was a power outage of a major issue, you can have the colonists in a safe site with power from generators. A FOB is a Foward Operating Base and is a lot more than just a ''last stand'' area. It's the base of where you are going to.

[slc97]

You as an engineer are provided with the exact amount of resources you need at round-start to build a passing FOB. That is your purpose at round-start: to build a passing FOB. You're not building a fuckin impenetrable fortress because you're not expecting to be facing anything that necessitates an impenetrable fortress. Therefore, taking those extra resources at round-start is powergaming because you have no idea you'll need them, and are simply doing it to maximize your load-out essentially. Deploy, build an FOB, and then call for more shit.

We're not going to write down every single example of powergaming that exists because the rules would turn into an encyclopedic novel, and the players already didn't like when the rules were so long, so we went through and shortened the crap out of it.

[coroneljones]

If anything, I want this to be handled with mechanics rather than OOC punishment. Here's two alternatives instead of apply warning then ban.

One: remove Combat Engineer's access to the metal and plasteel, if medics can't access the Weyland Vendors then it shouldn't be that difficult to do the same to Engineers.

Two: Make it an IC issue instead. This way MPs would actually have something to do if some cheeky Engineer wants to get some more metal along with more RP interactions. It'll also reduce the amount of things Mods would have to look out for at round start.

Point one might work, but then they would wait for mts to go in, or just ask them for materials

As for point two no MPs is possible, along with marine victory when possible MPs or command staff,turning a blind eye to it to allow better chances of the rines winning, I have seen this happen in the past, mostly with brigging rines for breaking the law.

Its already under powergame, they are just asking it to be added as an example.


And as I post this, slc posted pretty much what was needed to be said about it in general.

[Karmac]

That was the end goal, either clearly define things you shouldn't take at round start because /everyone/ that I've told about the rule does it anyway. Or get the rule changed back to how it was, which clearly isn't something staff are willing to let happen, despite the fact that the only difference between getting those supplies at round start or the second drop is the time it takes to get an FOB up, which considering xenos' latest strategy of rushing marines earlier in the round is a very necessary thing. Apologies for getting sidetracked there, but the main point is whether you label it as common sense or not *people are still doing it* therefore the current system is flawed and listing it in the ruleset will make it easier for moderators and mentors to monitor instead of specifically having to pay attention to engineering storage at the start of every round *because people don't know they can't do that*.

[Jroinc1]

And how much metal do you think you would use if there was a hull breach in say, Medbay? Or the brig? The Cargo office? Engineering itself?

One stack. 20 sheets, 50 MAX.

EDIT- Zero. Because the mods will fix it, because they take our fun

[Abbysynth]

You as an engineer are provided with the exact amount of resources you need at round-start to build a passing FOB. That is your purpose at round-start: to build a passing FOB. You're not building a fuckin impenetrable fortress because you're not expecting to be facing anything that necessitates an impenetrable fortress. Therefore, taking those extra resources at round-start is powergaming because you have no idea you'll need them, and are simply doing it to maximize your load-out essentially. Deploy, build an FOB, and then call for more shit.

We're not going to write down every single example of powergaming that exists because the rules would turn into an encyclopedic novel, and the players already didn't like when the rules were so long, so we went through and shortened the crap out of it.

Did you design the map? No? How do you know how the resources are distributed? There's not enough supplies in the engineer preps for two fully stocked engineers if one of them shows up early and takes everything. It's the nature of the beast.

The metal in engineering was designed specifically so that other combat engineers, as in the ones that matter in the game, can get extra metal if they so desire it. MTs and CE do not matter. Sorry. The round lives on just fine without them, and they absolutely do not need extra metal for anything. If they want the metal at round start they literally spawn right there in front of them. Put it in your backpack maybe?

Why do marines take extra guns down with them? They aren't expecting hostile enemies, right? Why take food down with them, there's food down there, right? By logic then nobody should ever take anything down to the planet that they don't start with in their prep room. It's intentional that players can put in effort pre-round to get more gear. You're punishing people now for 'maximizing their loadout?' Having no idea if you'll need them is WHY YOU TAKE THINGS WITH YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE. A good engineer is prepared for any eventuality. A bad engineer gets screamed at for not bringing enough stuff.

[Nightcaper]

Why do marines take extra guns down with them? They aren't expecting hostile enemies, right? Why take food down with them, there's food down there, right? By logic then nobody should ever take anything down to the planet that they don't start with in their prep room. It's intentional that players can put in effort pre-round to get more gear. You're punishing people now for 'maximizing their loadout?' Having no idea if you'll need them is WHY YOU TAKE THINGS WITH YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE. A good engineer is prepared for any eventuality. A bad engineer gets screamed at for not bringing enough stuff.

To add to this, why make peri/bicardine mixes and other crazy chems for marines when we don't know what to expect down there? This is an example of what many people giving +1's to this suggestion are trying to say: the rule has unwritten situations where doing x is a bad, but similar y's and z's are fine. Can't take extra metal at round start, but doctors can whip up drugs that suspect meta, and marines can come down planetside geared up with enough munitions for D-day the second coming?


Unwritten situations that fall under rules is not bad in itself, but when there's unwritten situations that should fall under that rule but generally don't, that's when the water gets murky. That's why one of two things ideally should happen:

1. Original suggestion, this gets written as a condition under the rules.

2. Remains an unwritten condition and the other conditions mentioned (making superdrugs for marines roundstart, bringing enough munitions to fight a world war) also become bads.


My two cents, but I feel the problem really does come from the fact that the combination of an unwritten condition that counts as powergaming, combined with unwritten exceptions to the rule, is what causes the most trouble here.