Remove the Ruling on FOBs

[Chaznoodles]

Suggestion Title: Remove the Ruling on FOBs.

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary): Remove the restrictions on building FOBs on the Nostromo.

Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole):

- Less combat-focused marines enjoy contributing to the side by building FOBs, which keeps them active.
- They provide a staging point for movements around the station.
- They can provide different functions, including but not limited to defences, Nostromo headquarters, medic posts, observation posts.
- They provide a fun dynamic to the game which combat can flow around.
- Marines enjoy defending FOBs, aliens enjoy finding ways in and attacking.

Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc): As stated above.

Implementation (Optional, if you have an idea how to implement it): Remove the ruling.

[UnknownMurder]

No. We went over this with the server base.

[Chaznoodles]

I went over this with the playerbase on repeated occasions. The majority have been in favour of removing the ruling, due to the aforementioned reasoning.

[Rahlzel]

+1

If we want to limit FOBs, let's reduce the amount of metal marines have access to or increase the metal needed to create walls and tables instead of making it a rule. Some rules feel too controlling over how the marines need to play the game - only one FOB, first contact, looting, mutiny...

[TopHatPenguin]

Before we had this rule implemented I thought it was fun for the marines and aliens to defend/attack each other in the F.O.B .I would like this rule to removed just because it seems pointless to limit to 1 F.O.B as well as what do you class as a F.O.B ? A Place with walls and tables or area with welded off and bolted doors.

My last Point is that I agree with Chaz on the point that some players are not as confident In combat either from previously team wounding on accident or they just don't feel secure with the knowledge they could fuck up badly and accidently cause a breach or shoot a welder tank. These Players I would assume like the comfort of being able to contribute by building or making a safe area to practice surgery on a bleeding out marine instead of chugging them all the way back to a far away F.O.B or to the sulaco either way the patient may die.

Thanks for reading this Wall of text,have a free Beard as compensation.

I agree with rah on the fact that it shouldn't be the F.O.B Numbers cut it should be metal thus making the F.O.B's weaker and weaker.

[apophis775]

The playerbase, is never in favor of change, especially when it nerfs marines.

Look at the shitstorm from welder helmets/PDAs removal. And now, noone even cares.

Again, I am NOT removing the restriction on this.

1. This is a MediumRP, Action server. COMBAT is the central theme. If you want to build, goto buildstation. The issue with this, is that Marines are getting decimated out on missions, because the people who can help them, get wrapped up in Fobs. Medics, Engineers just sit their asses in the fobs and forify.

2. The staging point, is the shuttle. The mission, is RESCUE and INVESTIGATION. Not, "#Occupy Nostromo". One FOB, should be MORE than plenty, especially if built at arrivals.

3. They don't need to provide different functions. That's what the Sulaco is for.

4. No, they do not provide a dynamic combat can flow around, they provide a BARRIER to combat, and do nothing but server to break up action, that is already broken up.

5. Nearly ALL the complaints I get about Fobs, are from the aliens, especially since the Marines make them near-impenitrable, and just extend the round by sitting inside them.

[razerwing]

Apop has a point. The whole point of us going aboard the Nostromo is to find out what the hell happened, not to construct massive defense forts. As cool as it is to sock it to the aliens from well-fortified positions, it drags the round on quite a bit. And when it's done at the start of the round... well you can pretty much forget about an alien victory with Xur at the helm.

However, maybe we should form a list as to WHAT exactly constitutes as an FOB? Anything more than tables? Anything that takes more than two metal sheets to make, perhaps? This is where some more defense-oriented Marine items would definitely come in handy I think. Rolls of constantine wire, maybe some inflatable walls to make 'Checkpoints'? FOB status would include things like walls, a few mines, and MG emplacements?

[apophis775]

They are investigating the disappearance of a crew on a station, not occupying a hostile country.

[Feweh]

I think you guys are completely missing the point of your own server.

When you have to start limiting certain play-styles and player creativity you're only damaging the server. While I understand the reason behind the new rules towards FOB I find it ridiculous that it's more based on laziness of the server staff.

The only reason FOB's are such a powerful tool and currently cause such conflict is because aliens only have ONE way of dealing with said bases. Which is usually running down a MG directed hallway.

Instead of punishing marine players and adding new rules, fix it for the Aliens themselves. Add new alien related gadgets and abilities that can help in some way counter FOB's. We could easily open a new suggestion on alien abilities.


So, to be blunt and point out the obvious... CM already suffers from repetition, every round usually plays out the same way for Marines and Aliens. You've now ELIMINATED, a major interesting aspect for the Marines and added NOTHING to expand the marines creativity on Nostro. So essentially every round is boiling down to the same boring shit, marines rush onto Nostro and run around with their heads up their asses till they can get a legit RP reason to just zerg the Aliens.

How was this not thought out at all during server staff discussion is beyond me.
Side note, I'm currently a Fire Fighter. At -EVERY- incident especially in a foreign building or zone you WOULD establish a FOB where command and supplies could be funneled too. So this shit about Marines supposing to jump on a station and just go at it without any FOB is the biggest crock of bull you could pull out of your ass. Unless the military changes tactics in the future a FOB WOULD ALWAYS BE ESTABLISHED, in fact it is one of the main priorities when you approach any scene or incident!

Instead, you should of encouraged FOB's in a better manner. You could of made new positions such as "Field Commander", "Field Engineer" or "Field Doctor" and perhaps, allow MP's in the FOB's. Having designated people to be in-charge of a FOB would limit 2 full squad's simply sitting inside of it making the game MORE BALANCED. Problem now is you have SQUAD ALPHA with 10 people sitting inside the FOB guarding it when realistically they should only be there to RE-SUPPLY or REINFORCE it if it was under threat.. Perhaps change the way's FOB's work to make it fair instead of taking the lazy way out simply because the game isn't balanced properly for Aliens.

Which all bullshit and excuses aside, FOB's were simply removed due to balancing issues. Well in the process you've now managed to make your server EVEN MORE repetitious and removed a FUN element to the game.

However as some people have said there comes a point between a FOB and a fucking BUNKER. FOB would simply be a few tables, controls, supplies and basic defense set up. FOB's should NOT be allowed to be heavily modified or armed till real conflict or threat to said base was real. It's essentially META for the Marines to begin buildings walls and defenses in a FOB against a unknown threat.

[Rahlzel]

I think you guys are completely missing the point of your own server.

When you have to start limiting certain play-styles and player creativity you're only damaging the server. While I understand the reason behind the new rules towards FOB I find it ridiculous that it's more based on laziness of the server staff.

The only reason FOB's are such a powerful tool and currently cause such conflict is because aliens only have ONE way of dealing with said bases. Which is usually running down a MG directed hallway.

Instead of punishing marine players and adding new rules, fix it for the Aliens themselves. Add new alien related gadgets and abilities that can help in some way counter FOB's. We could easily open a new suggestion on alien abilities.


So, to be blunt and point out the obvious... CM already suffers from repetition, every round usually plays out the same way for Marines and Aliens. You've now ELIMINATED, a major interesting aspect for the Marines and added NOTHING to expand the marines creativity on Nostro. So essentially every round is boiling down to the same boring shit, marines rush onto Nostro and run around with their heads up their asses till they can get a legit RP reason to just zerg the Aliens.

How was this not thought out at all during server staff discussion is beyond me.
Side note, I was in the army and I'm currently a Fire Fighter. At -EVERY- incident especially in a foreign building or zone you WOULD establish a FOB where command and supplies could be funneled too. So this shit about Marines supposing to jump on a station and just go at it without any FOB is the biggest crock of bull you could pull out of your ass. Unless the military changes tactics in the future a FOB WOULD ALWAYS BE ESTABLISHED, in fact it is one of the main priorities when you approach any scene or incident!

Instead, you should of encouraged FOB's in a better manner. You could of made new positions such as "Field Commander" or "Field Engineer" to add to FOB's. Perhaps change the way's FOB's work to make it fair instead of taking the lazy way out simply because the game isn't balanced properly for Aliens.

Which all bullshit and excuses aside, FOB's were simply removed due to balancing issues. Well in the process you've now managed to make your server EVEN MORE repetitious and removed a FUN element to the game.

However as some people have said there comes a point between a FOB and a fucking BUNKER. FOB would simply be a few tables, controls, supplies and basic defense set up. FOB's should NOT be allowed to be heavily modified or armed till real conflict or threat to said base was real. It's essentially META for the Marines to begin buildings walls and defenses in a FOB against a unknown threat.

I can't find anything that I disagree with here. I'd like to see solutions instead of rules.

[apophis775]

Does anyone else here, even know what the fuck a FOB is?

Forward Operating Base.

The Marines, have a forward operating base, it's their SHIP.

If anything, they should secure their LZ only.

They are not invading a hostile country, or occupying an enemy nation, they are going to try and rescue survivors from an unknown disaster. There is literally 0 reason, for anything beyond, at the most, a Casuality Evac point, UNTIL they make contact with an enemy. At that point, I could see brining in heavier support, but they don't need full surgical bays, piles of ammunition, tables of food, etc.

What it seems like to me, is that the same people, who are the ones who were researching, building borgs, or building AIs, have moved to building Forward bases and super fortresses.

Could I come up with alien solutions? Yes. Is that going to take time? Yes.

But know that, I do not making decisions about server balance or adjustment "willy Nilly".

Anytime I adjust rules, or balance, it's because I spend hours-days-weeks making notes of who is doing what, and determing what needs to be changed to improve the server experience for the target demographic.

Which, the target of the server, is not for people to build, or sit in bases jacking around. The target of the server, is to provide an action-RP environment. Marines should be ENGAGING enemy forces, not sitting in their base waiting for alien attacks.

You want an alien to counter basebuilding? I'll give you the corroder back, in all it's ranged-acid marine melting glory. Because, with the bases I see people building, that's going to be the only way for the aliens to counter.

[Feweh]

I don't think you know what a FOB is at all and once again you're just pulling definitions and logic out of your own opinion and beliefs.

FOB does not have to be a heavily secured area or even a base technically. You're taking Forward Operating Base by it's exact definition when really it isn't exactly that. You could walk into a kitchen and simply declare this is our FOB, I want the doors secured and a medical/logistics sector set up in the pantry.

You're right that Marines have gone overboard with FOB's, but your view on FOB's seems to derive simply from CM and I'm telling you it's not like that. In a perfect world the marines should walk into the Bridge, declare it the FOB, secure it with nothing more than a few barricades and guards.
Your problem is pretty simply and obvious, Marine's METAing FOB's and preparing them as bunkers. In all fairness, FOB's should be a final defense area for the Marines on Nostro. Just right now they are becoming FOB Bunker's as soon as the marines get on Nostro.

Another thing, you have 4 squads and the commanding units are stuck on a ship. THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF WHY YOU WOULD SET UP A FOB. Think about it in simpler terms.

Say you're on a Naval ship, you send 4 squads by small boat craft to shore. They are completely cut off from supplies and reinforcements aside from their larger naval ship. The commanding officer has NO eyes on the shore so he relies completely on the squad leaders on shore. Given that they rely on supplies, rations and reinforcements from said Naval ship they would ABSOLUTELY set up a base position on the shore. Not to mention you're sending in 4 FULL SQUADS, you would have a operating base to manage all these people.


Your logic is a bit screwed up because you're viewing this as a fast tactical operation. If you sent 4 squads into a building to quickly eliminate a threat in a few minutes I would understand why you'd not want FOB's. Problem is Apophis is this isn't the case... Rounds go for 2 hours usually, you have marines run out of ammo, supplies and reinforcements coming from the shuttle. This doesn't create a QUICK and fast tactical assault. It creates a long drawn out battle between the Aliens and Marines which is why FOB's are essential to marine integrity aboard Nostro.


Lastly, to point out the dead fucking obvious. How boring is it for marines and even Aliens to have marines just get on a shuttle and run around aimlessly around Nostro till they all just converge on the Aliens in Xeno and wipe them out? In fact this creates even more imbalance now because you have Marines bored to fucking death with only one thing to do... Kill the aliens as soon as possible.

As I said, I see your point with FOB's. But as Head Dev, Host and almighty whatever your position is, you've made a bad decision. As Head Dev, you should of discussed ways to build upon FOB's.. which I shouldn't have to point out by now WAS a major part of Colonial Marines.
You've sacrificed fun game-play mechanics and created steady repetition in order to solve a issue that can be solved by adding actual game content instead of taking the lazy Scapegoat out.

Something that is really bugging me that you keep mentioning is how you're trying to create Action Oriented RP. Well please, explain to me how you're improving the RP by eliminating a team oriented project? Something that creates a social area that involves RPing?
Infact, you've done the exact opposite. You removed a BIG RP element and made it MORE ACTION oriented because now all the Marines have to do on Nostro is fucking kill aliens and run around till they fucking hunt them down. Do you see my point?

[Rahlzel]

[Allan1234]

I don't think you know what a FOB is at all and once again you're just pulling definitions and logic out of your own opinion and beliefs.

FOB does not have to be a heavily secured area or even a base technically. You're taking Forward Operating Base by it's exact definition when really it isn't exactly that. You could walk into a kitchen and simply declare this is our FOB, I want the doors secured and a medical/logistics sector set up in the pantry.

You do know that Apop was a Intelligence Operator in the US army right? also as a Combat specialist in the Canadian armed forces i can assure you that a Military Forward Operating Base is a Base of operations used, as the name suggests to Operate a command post or location of R and R (rearm and refuel) and to Launch Operations. As apophis Stated this is a RESCUE/RECON Mission NOT an invasion or occupation the sulaco is your FOB and command point, the only thing marines should be building is a few defenses for securing there LZ or a Evac point.

[Aliton]

+1 to the popcorn comment.

[apophis775]

If the marines walked onto the bridge, tiped some tables pointing outward, that's not a FOB, that's a defensive positon.

A FOB, is when the marines setup hallways filled with electrified grates, secret walls, and extensive fortifications, and then fully stock that base, with enough provisions to outlast a chinese invasion, which, is what I see more and more of happening.

[CampinKiller]

To be honest, I don't like the rule. I would say if we have to have a limit at all, then limit it to 2, and allow it to be established anywhere. When I play as an alien, I ENJOY trying to find ways into the FOBs. It is a serious challenge, and it's thrilling, because when you finally find or make that weak spot, it surprises the Marines and it descends into a hellish battle for survival, which is normally fun.

That's just my 2 cents, though.

[Davidchan]

I disagree with the ruling, but I also have to disagree with how people behave with FOBs in general.

The initial mission is Search and Rescue. The crew is missing, nobody knows whats going on. The Marines should be tearing apart the station looking for survivors or clues about what happened to the crew. The gibs and blood around the station are one clue, but contact with the aliens should be made and the infestation brought to light BEFORE FOBs are set up. Once the marines realize what's at stake, they have every right to dig in, set up multiple DFPs and checkpoints and scrounge up anything useful as they start putting pressure on the aliens.

Broadly declaring that they can only defend one part of the station, of 5 or so specific areas, is stupid. No modern military would direct their troops to hold a very specific building or structure unless it was of great strategic value, if OpFors showed up unexpectedly and the marines were made to dig in, they'd fall back to the most defensible location, rally regroup and launch a counter attack.

@Unknown, I am STILL pissed off about the PDA/Welder Helmets being removed. Could the Helmets be meta'd? Yeah maybe, but every good engineer used them anyways and often walked around with the helmet flipped up so as not to be accused of power gaming. PDAs may have been under used but people still had the option to toss them if they wanted to, just like how the station bounced radios get left on the Sulaco and most of the new IFAKs. PDA messaging is how I prefer to communicate with people to get a message across, I can directly send a message to someone, it beeps on their screen and gives them a prompt to shoot one back to me.

But this ruling. This is lazy moderation. Are there problems with FOBs and how they are handled? Yes. But apply an OOC ruling isn't doing justice. If marines building walls everywhere is a problem, add 5-10 sheets of metal to the crafting recipe to set up girders or apply plates. If tables are an issue make them weaker or give Warrior caste aliens abilities to charge through them. The MGs are tough but they aren't overpowered, a drone/hivelord can easily find a way around them for the other aliens to get a crack at them, and spitters can knock the gunner prone for a few seconds to allow someone else to run up.

@Apophis, I can say with certainty that Marines are choosing to fortify in FOBs because the mechanics aren't working against them in a FOB. Attacking a Hive is step after step of bullshit. Alien huggers thrown left and right, not being able to shoot a warrior or praetorian hiding around the corner, but stepping into into position to shoot them is going to get you disarmed and dragged off no matter what. Grenades are useless and most of them only help the aliens, there is no way to drive aliens from cover of corners without dismantling the station wall by wall and trying to get a flank exposed, which in places like Xenobiology or Prison Wing is impossible without breaching. GIVE the Marines a way to drive aliens from cover or kill that 3 pack of huggers hiding behind the wall and I can promise you the marines will be quite happy to charge into what ever nest they find to rescue their comrades, but until they have a way to respond and force the Aliens hands in ways similar to how a Spitter can knock a gunner down and run up to acid spit an MG nest before retreating. This is simply a matter of Marines reacting to balance and mechanics, if you don't like how they are behaving change the balance in ways to encourage different styles of plays, not arbitrarily deny them using otherwise valid and effective tactics that fall well within the lines how rational people in the situation would behave.

[SecretStamos (Joshuu)]

To be honest, I don't like the rule. I would say if we have to have a limit at all, then limit it to 2, and allow it to be established anywhere. When I play as an alien, I ENJOY trying to find ways into the FOBs. It is a serious challenge, and it's thrilling, because when you finally find or make that weak spot, it surprises the Marines and it descends into a hellish battle for survival, which is normally fun.

That's just my 2 cents, though.

I tend to agree with this. It's a lot of fun when there are multiple holdouts of marines. When you force all four squads into a single base, it takes out a lot of the strategic element and it turns into a bit of a mess.

[Darknova]

I can say with certainty that Marines are choosing to fortify in FOBs because the mechanics aren't working against them in a FOB. Attacking a Hive is step after step of bullshit. Alien huggers thrown left and right, not being able to shoot a warrior or praetorian hiding around the corner, but stepping into into position to shoot them is going to get you disarmed and dragged off no matter what. Grenades are useless and most of them only help the aliens, there is no way to drive aliens from cover of corners without dismantling the station wall by wall and trying to get a flank exposed, which in places like Xenobiology or Prison Wing is impossible without breaching. GIVE the Marines a way to drive aliens from cover or kill that 3 pack of huggers hiding behind the wall and I can promise you the marines will be quite happy to charge into what ever nest they find to rescue their comrades, but until they have a way to respond and force the Aliens hands in ways similar to how a Spitter can knock a gunner down and run up to acid spit an MG nest before retreating. This is simply a matter of Marines reacting to balance and mechanics, if you don't like how they are behaving change the balance in ways to encourage different styles of plays, not arbitrarily deny them using otherwise valid and effective tactics that fall well within the lines how rational people in the situation would behave.

I agree with this statement. It almost seems like assault based tactics for the marines simply backfire on them when attempted. I can't determine whether it is the game mechanics that would make it seem this way or simply just a few cases of marines neglecting simple tactics. When i refer to simple tactics, I'm talking about keeping flanks secure more notable the 6 o'clock flank. This could solve problems when marines are in a pinch and need to pullout. On the other hand you have the mechanics against them in that tight spaces are more of a danger to marines than the actual aliens themselves. Firefights in such environments end up with more marine casualties dying to friendly-fire which can get really annoying, since you can't exactly fix broken bones on the front line. That's the best case scenario, only broken bones, when there is no corpsman present now you got yourself a self inflicted massacre.

With this in mind, we can now come to the perspective that assaulting in tight spaces is a poor choice since marines cannot shoot their guns with the peace of mind that it won't kill their friend standing right next to them. This causes a problem since now you have no solid method for gaining ground. Typically grenades would help in this sort of situation, to clear out the hunkered down and corner sitting aliens. However, that is also not an option. This means that assault tactics are now looking to be a lot more trouble than their worth, so what does that now leave? Defensive tactics. Areas designated as FoB locations help with the space problem. You got a large room in which ten marines can fit in easy, move around with minimal traffic, and space to fire. This, I think is the reason for the heavy fortification, but it's just my viewpoint.

To all those people who made it this far, thank you for your patience.

[apophis775]

Broadly declaring that they can only defend one part of the station, of 5 or so specific areas, is stupid. No modern military would direct their troops to hold a very specific building or structure unless it was of great strategic value, if OpFors showed up unexpectedly and the marines were made to dig in, they'd fall back to the most defensible location, rally regroup and launch a counter attack.

Literally, this is what our military does. We pick a specific building/structre, and fortify it, then run the sector from there. We don't setup 87,000 surrounding minibases every 90 feet. A single sector, which is MASSIVE, is always run, from a single FOB.

If they setup up a FOB on arrivals, that would be where they base. If they need stuff from somewhere, they would send a patrol or a team there, not go to EVA and secure it with walls and tables.

The thing is, there's a difference between a few tables and welded doors (not a fob), and building several 5 star resorts across the station, that are SO DEFENDED it's impossible for the aliens to get even remotly close.

Remember the movie? They had VERY limited ammo, to the point that, they welded doors, AND put up their shoddy turrets, which defended them for a VERY short time.


Anyway, I will continue to read this thread, and work on solutions. But there will only be one single "FOB" allowed, however, definition of what is and is not a FOB, will probably change.

[apophis775]

There was another round today, where it went 90 minutes, with no infections, because the marines just sat in their fob, and the aliens were too afraid to attack.

[Xurphorus]

I can't find anything that I disagree with here. I'd like to see solutions instead of rules.

I second this post. The only thing that I can only say is that Aliens ALREADY have a counter offensive to fight the so called fortresses I and other top tier constructors take the time to build is the corrosive acid Drones, Sentinels, Spitters, Praetorians, Hivelords, and even the flipping Queen can produce. They can melt down a flank around these F.O.B.'s and decimate from two different approaches. It doesn't depend on how marines defend themselves, it all depends on HOW the Aliens decide to attack. This is not a movie where the Marines go in, kill some aliens, save the day, its more on the levels of attrition. Its solely depends on who has the stronger momentum for winning and the wit to accomplish this. Restricting constructive ideas is a bad idea, if this is the case why not restrict aliens from making resin fortresses, or filling the halls with layers upon layers of resin walls and doors. All I am trying to put out is that it depends on the player and how well they play. Veteran and Noobs alike, if they cannot put their minds on how to crack an egg open...they will just learn from the experience and try again...same with marines trying to raid a hive against a group of aliens. This restriction is not a needed one.

[Mr.Smooooth]

This is what happens when I'm away for a day, isen't it?

Alright, this ruling is pants on head retarded, for a number of reasons. Most of these reasons have been pretty well explained, so I'm not going to go there. I will however point out that in most cases, FOBs get overrun. Even the best built FOBs will fall to aliens given enough time. Fighting in a FOB is the only area that marines are on EVEN ground with the aliens, note that they need home field advantage to be on Even terms. Marine tactics evolved around holding area defensively because assaulting alien positions is practically suicide. Lolnesting is a big problem, along with corner stacked huggers and the fact that its impossible to clear the alien's foxholes without making yourself vulnerable.

This difficulty in assaulting alien positions while they're at full strength forced marines to develop defensive strategies, and wait them out. By fortifying themselves in an advantageous position, the marines hope to weaken alien forces through casualties sustained attacking their position, allowing them to counter-attack successfully. This is why you see fortresses of FOBs appearing on the station, its the only viable option.

The Sulaco cannot act as a proper FOB simply because it's too far from the action unless its being boarded. The marines need a position they can fall back to that is both secure, and close by, so they can resupply, lick their wounds, and prepare for the next round. FOBs provide this.

Finally, even the strongest FOBs will fall, no design to date is invincible, and will eventually go down, once the defenses are broken the marines inside are hella vulnerable. To date FOBs have provided fun for both the marines defending them, and the aliens assaulting them, and kneecapping them like this only hurts player's enjoyment of the game.

[Sellka]

1+ pink and xur

How many rounds do marines march into the nostromo and have to expel huge quantities of ammo to just reach the hive? Fobs are our fallback, most of the time multiple fobs are our way of cornering the dam aliens, that and they useually escape into space at the first sign of humans. Games have lasted an hour to hour n a half of searching for the bastards.