[ALPHA 8/1/15] Overall Balance Discussion

[Aztectornado]

At risk of a little flak, I'm gonna write this out without the format. From the couple games I've played in the Alpha recently, let me start by saying I am impressed at the overhaul that has been made, and scope of the changes. For the record, I will always say that the overall changes have been good. That said however, I have noted down a lot of problems with the way things are balanced, first and foremost-...

I have not seen a single Alien Major victory

None. And while I realize that yes, the hype train IS in fact driving stronger than a day in which Gaben announced anything that sounded vaguely like Halflife 3, the metric as I've observed still stands. If anyone can prove me wrong, I welcome it, and in fact, if there are any win-loss metrics recorded with this alpha, I would LOVE to see the graphs. (You-... Did make it record the win-loss ratio and stuff for research, right?)

Realizing this, I began to look for reasons on why I had only ever seen alien minor and marine major victories.

Map design (though splendid) seems to be a major issue, and while the map is huge and expansive, it seems to boil down to several choke points on the map. The most prevalent seems to be that rather than spawning anywhere on the map, aliens spawn in one general area, and are for the most part corralled there in choices of hive locations. More so in the latest since many of the lovely maintenance-like back tunnels were removed.

In the old map, aliens could choose from one of roughly five major hotspots in viro, xeno, atmos, perma, or god help you, chapel. In the new map, virtually 60% of the map is unweedable jungle which is entirely uninfestable, limiting sane queens to one of two-three general areas in the caves.

In the old map, the map was close and claustrophobic, and there were plenty of places for crafty aliens to pop in and out of, vents were abundant, and there were tight corners mixed with long hallways that gave marines places to turn into an impassable wall of bullets, or aliens a place to gank from the shadows. The new map is open and expansive, and even the caves average four tile wide tunnels that stretch straight ahead for 2-5 screens with no permanent obstacles to hide behind. Worst of all, everything that is semi-permanent can be taken down with a drill or pick, allowing the MARINES to gank from unexpected angles.

I shouldn't have to explain this, but open fields favor the fast and the ranged weapon users. The ranged aliens are slow and bulky, and incapable of shooting fast, while marines dance and yakkety sax while firing in the general direction, and take forever to actually get hit even by multiple sentinels and aliens. (Pouncing no longer auto-targets either, rendering the cooldown on pounces even more punishing without the bonk)

Additionally, even when the marines DO start to lose, they immediately fall back, which is natural except for the fact every single time they do, they immediately set up shop around the shuttle dock. That's normal, even for the old map, however, unlike the old map, there's almost literally zero chance for aliens to board once this occurs. (The meta behind this should be punishable on its own, but that's not the target of this critique.) On the old map, there were two possible entry points for aliens, aptly named shuttle 1 and shuttle 2. Each of these shuttles had two exits on either side, and a third to the front for the creative alien. Two of these six possible exits open into the same hallway, so we'll say there's 5, all of which have 20-30 squares from another exit.

The new map has one viable shuttle for use, as the drop pod can neither house a large enough force to viably take the Sulaco, nor can it be called remotely should it be recalled to the Sulaco. This single shuttle has a wide, open space around it, two exits, four windows, and a fifth possible exit up front behind an airlock that refuses to acid. Now, while you may think more exits means more possibilities, it also means that there's more ways to get shot at. The corners of the shuttle are literally the only places without line of sight to a marine flooded area. Exiting towards the ladders is nearly suicide, but even around back fares awfully since marines can cut through the shuttle, or walk less than 20 paces around it and have a clear line down essentially a coverless hallway. This isn't even going into detail about the growing trend of building turrets with RnD all over the hangar, or the fact that the moment you land there's a 75% chance forecast for grenades, and literally nowhere on the shuttle that you can take cover from these.

Now, sure, the aliens have the "super OP facehugger thing" that can two hit you, but the open hallways negate any chance that this could be used since the only things faster than a marine also are the weakest, and anyone with common sense knows that in order to run away from something, you only need move slightly faster than it and shoot backwards. Hunters and Runners seem to be the only ones capable of this, and even so, if the marine happened to have a buddy nearby, well, sucks for you, but you just wasted both claws worth of aliens.... Assuming they're not wearing any of the many gasmasks or EVA helmets that are laying around. If they are, you're fucked from the get go.

I touched on this before, but not only are aliens having a harder time, but now marines carry enough grenades to literally dig through a hive with, but also a rocket launcher that seems to basically be a toxins bomb in a tube, reaching far and wide and having multiple shots, while also taking down weeds that don't grow back, node or not. Couple this with the new smartgun, and the fact that shotguns seemingly ignore armor, and-... Well, there's not really any contest anymore, is there? The only way the aliens get even a partial victory is by holding out long enough for the marines to get bored or scared and try to escape, which still doesn't make sense for lore. (The Sulaco is a ship, can't it just, y'know, fly off?)

tl;dr, Aliens can only be in threeish general areas, they can't gank without a smart hivelord, marines can drill out their one and only base-worthy locale, shuttle is a death trap, and aliens hate wide open spaces that the map is littered with.

This is what I've gathered, and I'm eager to discuss this with others, and generally be proven wrong or told that I talk too much.

[TopHatPenguin]

It might be your timezone or when you come on.. because the rounds i played yesterday were all alien major victories.

In regards of the grenade problem that is being dealt with via multiple suggestions.

[Aztectornado]

It might be your timezone or when you come on.. because the rounds i played yesterday were all alien major victories.

That's entirely possible; I tend to come on later than most in an attempt to mitigate lag caused both by other users on my network node, and the lag from-... Well, all 120+ of the others milling about and causing chaos. How many rounds, in a rough guesstimate, would you say were won? Can you think of any reasons those succeeded? (Marines were bad, someone did something neat on the map, somedrone got into the back alleys of the Sulaco early-....)

[Steelpoint]

It would be nice if we had a statistics page akin to some other servers that lets you see a roundtype's win rates based on population, and round start population. As well as seeing those win rates over time.

For example on /tg/station we found that Nuclear Operatives had a very high win rate on low pop rounds, usually at around 80%, whereas on high pop rounds they have a very low win rate at 20%.

That would be very useful as a sort of metric.

[TopHatPenguin]

That's entirely possible; I tend to come on later than most in an attempt to mitigate lag caused both by other users on my network node, and the lag from-... Well, all 120+ of the others milling about and causing chaos. How many rounds, in a rough guesstimate, would you say were won? Can you think of any reasons those succeeded? (Marines were bad, someone did something neat on the map, somedrone got into the back alleys of the Sulaco early-....)

Well the aliens just had lots of tier 3 aliens which fucked us over

[Sebro]

Wow, this is actually something I've seen in game. So yeah, I guess I agree with the balance problems. Although...sometimes with highpop rounds tons of marines go SSD, and immediately get hugged and tooken away, along with baldies shooting EVERYTHING.

[Surrealistik]

It might be your timezone or when you come on.. because the rounds i played yesterday were all alien major victories.

In regards of the grenade problem that is being dealt with via multiple suggestions.

This. If anything, since Sci got uber nerfed I have not once yet seen a Marine victory; overall the game's balance seems to be biased towards the aliens.

[Feweh]

Game is a little biased towards Aliens.. but honestly Aliens really work for that Victory.

I haven't seen a single game since Alpha went Live where it was a easy or straight forward victory. Granted I've mostly been playing Predator so I haven't had a huge overview of the situation.

I think it's quite nicely balanced.. and one of the main issues is that the Marines haven't figured out their new tools and gadgets. They still don't do proper supply drops and still haven't gotten the hang of the Orbital Bombardment.

[Steelpoint]

I agree on overwatch, I've rarely seen overwatch being utilised effectively. Also I think Commanders and other command level personal are simply not reacting fast enough to changing circumstances, though I can't pin this down to a lack of tools but more due to many high rank officers not being very quick to react.

[Aeleto]

Game is a little biased towards Aliens.. but honestly Aliens really work for that Victory.

I haven't seen a single game since Alpha went Live where it was a easy or straight forward victory. Granted I've mostly been playing Predator so I haven't had a huge overview of the situation.

I think it's quite nicely balanced.. and one of the main issues is that the Marines haven't figured out their new tools and gadgets. They still don't do proper supply drops and still haven't gotten the hang of the Orbital Bombardment.

Couldn't sum things up better. Marines are lacking strategies and proper organization regarding the new options. Once they get used to everything, I believe things will be better.

[Aztectornado]

Couldn't sum things up better. Marines are lacking strategies and proper organization regarding the new options. Once they get used to everything, I believe things will be better.

At least later in the night when all the regulars are marines, things seem to go rediculously well for marines. Perhaps for balance purposes we should host a whitelisted event; allow only regulars into a single round, just for hard, clear cut data gathering on balance. No free radicals due to noob marines running in and going full rambo, no marines who don't know what they're up to, only good, solid players for a single round of data collection.

[Lostmixup]

I feel like a maaaaasive problem is that the map just isn't designed super well (sorry abby). The map looks beautiful but I don't think there was a whole lot of consideration put in, in terms of how the map would flow, where aliens could set up, where aliens could set up appropriate hives, etc. Now that the alpha is out, I'd love it if the map could be reworked a tad to improve the flow of the map, not just on the ground but also in the sulaco.

Gotta be honest, the new sulaco's design isn't very appealing in terms of structure to me. I hate how the RO desk isn't simply right next to the marine preps, and how the marine prep area's have lockers but you can just get shit (and will eventually get shit) out of the vending machines. It just makes the entire hallway prep setup seem pointless, and un-needed. May as well just slap some specific squad vending machines around instead of having like 20 for every squad.

[Feweh]

My biggest complaint about Sulaco is re-assigning people to squads... Need a terminal in the briefing room so you don't have to run all the way back to the bridge and hope someone is there. (XO and CO never are so fuck getting re-assigned)


Also, a BIG factor for Marine's winning is who's Commanding. There's a lot more factors and need to organize squads than in Nostro where you could just bum rush into Xeno. The Commander's who don't use the announcement system, don't have squads constantly re-assigned to new orders after the previous are the one's that usually fuck Marines over.

[Aztectornado]

Also, a BIG factor for Marine's winning is who's Commanding. There's a lot more factors and need to organize squads than in Nostro where you could just bum rush into Xeno. The Commander's who don't use the announcement system, don't have squads constantly re-assigned to new orders after the previous are the one's that usually fuck Marines over.

What the hell do they even DO on the alpha that ISN'T overwatch? There's almost nothing else they're supposed to do. .-.

[outordinary]

It might be your timezone or when you come on.. because the rounds i played yesterday were all alien major victories.

In regards of the grenade problem that is being dealt with via multiple suggestions.

Not sure of both of your timezones, but I usually work around 5pm-5am, so on days when I'm off I play around 8 pm or 9pm to 2am or 3am. Around 8-11 like OP mentioned where regulars are on and also new members is when things go to shit. I don't know about major victories, but most of the time I played I saw minor victories with a ton of marines still around usually and only a few aliens maybe 3-4 non-logged out. If not minor victory then marine victory. To go with what was mentioned earlier in the thread, people haven't even noticed some of the new mechanics so some of these wins are not even at full potential. Only things aliens have going for them is combat stuff, which is counterproductive to their mission.

[Aztectornado]

Not sure of both of your timezones, but I usually work around 5pm-5am, so on days when I'm off I play around 8 pm or 9pm to 2am or 3am. Around 8-11 like OP mentioned where regulars are on and also new members is when things go to shit. I don't know about major victories, but most of the time I played I saw minor victories with a ton of marines still around usually and only a few aliens maybe 3-4 non-logged out. If not minor victory then marine victory. To go with what was mentioned earlier in the thread, people haven't even noticed some of the new mechanics so some of these wins are not even at full potential. Only things aliens have going for them is combat stuff, which is counterproductive to their mission.

Yeah, that's about the size of it. Queen usually enables harm just to balance things out. Marines are too good, and often times she'll be like "Okay, just kneecap them so they stop running..."

It's-... Entirely unfair when the regulars are all marines. .-.

[Aztectornado]

Bumping thread to try and get more discussion and/or an adminstrator response on the issues raised and debated.

[Jeser]

I dunno, even. I think, in whole we have pretty balanced game, cause: aliens win pretty often. Marines win only with luck and/or good CO. And good CO it's not what happens everyday. Yep, we have issues, like shuttle camping, it should be resolved by mechanics and not rules. I liked suggestion of new shuttle design and making impossible to build anything in two tiles from shuttle in all directions. That should balanced that problem more or less. But in general? Problem just one: current alien's tactic is not natural, but artificial (? dunno word). In films aliens capture only hosts that can't defend themselves, those with weapons just got slaughtered in seconds. That's the main problem and you can't resolve it. When aliens allowed to kill, marines have VERY low chances to win, except they WELL prepared in hangar area.

[Evilkyle24]

The shuttle landing area is a massive killzone.

I saw an entire assault with at least five t-3 aliens and the queen fail because they mined the shit out of the area around the shuttle and just fired wildly into the windows with explosives.

[apophis775]

Didn't follow format, denied.