Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

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SecretStamos (Joshuu)
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Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by SecretStamos (Joshuu) » 16 Aug 2015, 01:44

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary):
Add some actual ammo management to Colonial Marines. If you've ever played Jagged Alliance 2 or a survival game you'll probably understand. If not, here's an explanation.

Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole):
► Show Spoiler
Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc):
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Please keep an open mind. Like I said before, try underpacking before you criticize this idea. You'll find it makes the round more interesting and fun.

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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by Edgelord » 16 Aug 2015, 01:51

+1, ammo hoarding is the death of in-game tension.
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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by kurugi » 16 Aug 2015, 01:51

+1
We just need more ROs to tell them to fuck off and only give them 2 attachments unless they want a flashlight since they're infinite. Only give webbing to specialized marines and station staff.
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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by Dyne » 16 Aug 2015, 02:06

I am on the hedge on this issue. Real life soldiers carry at least four mags, and its usually more, 6-8, combat ready, with more in their backpack.
If choosing between food and ammo many of them will take ammo. Also last I checked the ammo in M41 is caseless, so an ammo box feels a bit artificial.

For "support roles"- medics and engineers, there is a real limit, as they carry a lot of other equipment already.
Also a good marine will reload after every engagement, and if you dont die burning through 5-8 mags is quite real, especially with suppressive fire.
And so far I'm not seeing much difference. Say, there is this ammo box, carried, or dropped somewhere. Same principle happends now with extra mags.

Leaning towards a -1 so far. Good concept, but not seeing the real benefit or finesse in the proposed execution.
Maybe not making rifle mags fitting in boxes might give a benefit.

A total alternative in the same vein would be actually calculating weight, and making it affect movement speed, which would open more loadout options, making light infantry feasible. But thats a high-level rework, not impossible, but far away from existing baycode, for one.
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Re: Ammo management.

Post by K0NFL1QT » 16 Aug 2015, 02:11

I miss the Ammo Box, would love to see it come back. I've been playing a lot of SL or Rocket Specialist lately, so I've HAD to sacrifice slots previously used for ammo for beacons, rockets and nades. Generally only the belt is full of M41A mags now. I still rarely run out, even after firing blindly into darkness to keep a harassing hunter at bay. The belt holds enough ammo to keep you on the field until you get injured and can come back to restock, or you have to retreat anyway. And there's usually dead marines laying around the FOB/LZ, if I'm running low I loot them. I'm always checking dead marines for useful stuff.

Yes, Marines have a tendency to overpack on ammo. But for Standard Marines, they don't really have any other options.There's just not much available to them. I'm sure they'd love to take a couple frags, or some combat stims, or the old Xeno Restraints. I guess they could go raid Medbays lobby dispensers for a few shots of inaprov/tricord, or we could get the old Marine Survival Pack back aswell.
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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by Dea Tacita » 16 Aug 2015, 02:14

I kinda like this Idea tbh. Would increase tension and make the game a midge more entertaining/frustrating in my opinion.

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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More.

Post by UnknownMurder » 16 Aug 2015, 02:18

I'm up for having this in, however I cannot see how this can be enforced. (Unless Developers puts in a weight limit thingy). I would love to see some marines have scarce ammo, because currently; marines doesn't usually uses supply beacon except Engineering purposes. For me, it was fun to continue to find a way to survive without ammo, especially in Classic Resident Evil.
Although, it will anger players.
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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by Feweh » 16 Aug 2015, 02:26

+1 reasons stated above

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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by Steelpoint » 16 Aug 2015, 03:26

-1

Currently it can take at least half a Magazine to kill T1 to 2 Aliens, and that's assuming you hit your target with impeccable accuracy, t3 aliens are a whole different ballpark.

I can't go on a rant due to being on my phone, but the only way I would support a ammo restriction is...

* Double the amount of Supply Drop Beacons SLs get

* Increase gun mag sizes by around ten to fifteen bullets.

* Allow Marines to empty and put bullets into mags, letting them dump half empty mags and combine the ammo.
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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by Nikov » 16 Aug 2015, 03:53

-1.

"All straight leg grunts carried an average of about 6 (1 qt) green plastic canteens attached to their rucks and at least 1 metal canteen cup which was used for either heating food or water. Straight leggers also carried 3 to 6 or more hand grenades and a maybe a bayonet. Plus 100 or 200 rounds of machinegun ammo, and two to four bandoliers of M-16 ammo (seven M-16 magazine pockets to the bandolier, each magazine normally loaded with only 18 rounds of 5.56mm; capacity was 20 rounds, but to preserve the magazine’s spring it was compressed with only18 rounds). All of these items were carried in the extreme humidity, thru knee deep mud, and up jungle strewn hill tops."

"There was no average number; you carried everything you could carry. 15 loaded mags were standard. If we were shaky we carried two bandoliers. That was besides the 6 mags in pouches. If you had to make a choice between food and ammo you took ammo. The machine gunner carried two or three belts and everyone else in the squad carried an extra belt. There was a reason they called us “Grunts”."

So no. Colonial Marines is Vietnam in Space, and currently we have exactly the correct attitude in loading out our M-14's... I mean M41A's.
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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by DernSquirrels^3 » 16 Aug 2015, 03:56

Please please PLEASE add this. Logistics in games are fun! FUN!

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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by Nikov » 16 Aug 2015, 04:09

Forcing logistic strain by giving everyone an unrealistically low ammo load is artificial difficulty and should be avoided. Instead make supply drops more powerful and intuitive. I like survival horror, but people will constantly find ways around any attempt to push 'survival horror' limited ammo on them. Just make magazines not fit in cardboard boxes...
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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by kurugi » 16 Aug 2015, 04:18

Nikov wrote:Forcing logistic strain by giving everyone an unrealistically low ammo load is artificial difficulty and should be avoided. Instead make supply drops more powerful and intuitive. I like survival horror, but people will constantly find ways around any attempt to push 'survival horror' limited ammo on them. Just make magazines not fit in cardboard boxes...
Honestly, why not just add another crate to the list? Supply drop crate. List out everything a good supply drop needs and put it in this crate for 50 or so points. Make them only openable by SL.
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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by Jeser » 16 Aug 2015, 04:22

As engineer, I always take 6 magazines with me. In some rounds I don't shoot till the round end and final stand. In some I spend all 6 mags in a half an hour and need supply drop or return to Sulaco for resupply. Better tell me exactly what amount of ammo you want to see on marines and then I'll tell, is it good or not. We already were fucked up with belts and boxes, I don't want another stupid half-made and not thought through nerf.
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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by DernSquirrels^3 » 16 Aug 2015, 04:36

Jeser wrote:As engineer, I always take 6 magazines with me. In some rounds I don't shoot till the round end and final stand. In some I spend all 6 mags in a half an hour and need supply drop or return to Sulaco for resupply. Better tell me exactly what amount of ammo you want to see on marines and then I'll tell, is it good or not. We already were fucked up with belts and boxes, I don't want another stupid half-made and not thought through nerf.
Well, judging on my playstyle and the fact that engies would get (brown?) webbing to store tools in (if this idea went through), I'm guessing you'd get around seven mags in your belt. I've always found that to be more than enough for me atleast. Plus you would have someone carrying around a munitions box that you could resupply from. Frankly I don't see the problem with this.

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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by SecretStamos (Joshuu) » 16 Aug 2015, 04:39

Jeser wrote:As engineer, I always take 6 magazines with me. In some rounds I don't shoot till the round end and final stand. In some I spend all 6 mags in a half an hour and need supply drop or return to Sulaco for resupply. Better tell me exactly what amount of ammo you want to see on marines and then I'll tell, is it good or not. We already were fucked up with belts and boxes, I don't want another stupid half-made and not thought through nerf.
Frankly I've put a lot of thought into this, and it's hardly a nerf. I myself play Marine Medic most rounds, and I almost never play Aliens.

You certainly don't have to be so mean about it. Calling my idea "stupid" and "half-made" doesn't prove your point, it just hurts my feelings.

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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by Jeser » 16 Aug 2015, 05:00

SecretStamos (Joshuu) wrote: Frankly I've put a lot of thought into this, and it's hardly a nerf. I myself play Marine Medic most rounds, and I almost never play Aliens.

You certainly don't have to be so rude about it. Calling my idea "stupid" and "half-made" doesn't prove your point, it just hurts my feelings.
I didn't mean that your idea stupid, I called stupid and half-made that idea of removing back one slot in belts and not returning boxes.

Anyway, I misread first time and didn't see numbers of ammo. First question: why we can't store ammo in pockets? I always have one magazine in left pocket, because it's much faster to reload than from belt.
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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by MrGabol100 » 16 Aug 2015, 05:14

Nikov wrote:-1.

"All straight leg grunts carried an average of about 6 (1 qt) green plastic canteens attached to their rucks and at least 1 metal canteen cup which was used for either heating food or water. Straight leggers also carried 3 to 6 or more hand grenades and a maybe a bayonet. Plus 100 or 200 rounds of machinegun ammo, and two to four bandoliers of M-16 ammo (seven M-16 magazine pockets to the bandolier, each magazine normally loaded with only 18 rounds of 5.56mm; capacity was 20 rounds, but to preserve the magazine’s spring it was compressed with only18 rounds). All of these items were carried in the extreme humidity, thru knee deep mud, and up jungle strewn hill tops."

"There was no average number; you carried everything you could carry. 15 loaded mags were standard. If we were shaky we carried two bandoliers. That was besides the 6 mags in pouches. If you had to make a choice between food and ammo you took ammo. The machine gunner carried two or three belts and everyone else in the squad carried an extra belt. There was a reason they called us “Grunts”."

So no. Colonial Marines is Vietnam in Space, and currently we have exactly the correct attitude in loading out our M-14's... I mean M41A's.
I was about to +1, because scavenging, calling drops, finding dat ammo box, and that as OP suggested is fun, but this man made a good point.

I'll give my -1 to the OP.

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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by SecretStamos (Joshuu) » 16 Aug 2015, 05:28

MrGabol100 wrote: I was about to +1, because scavenging, calling drops, finding dat ammo box, and that as OP suggested is fun, but this man made a good point.

I'll give my -1 to the OP.
The average US Soldier carries around 210 rounds. Ammo shortages were even apparent in the film "Aliens". Vasquez and Gorman ended up running out of ammo in the ducts and were forced into using their sidearms.

Lets not forget this is a rescue mission, not a week-long patrol.

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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by Kinrany » 16 Aug 2015, 05:32

+1, except there's no point in nerfing armor slot and pockets.
Also, we could make clips hold less bullets instead.

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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by Steelpoint » 16 Aug 2015, 05:58

SecretStamos (Joshuu) wrote: The average US Soldier carries around 210 rounds. Ammo shortages were even apparent in the film "Aliens". Vasquez and Gorman ended up running out of ammo in the ducts and were forced into using their sidearms.

Lets not forget this is a rescue mission, not a week-long patrol.
Except its clear the events of this game are more akin to a full USCM deployment of troops and not just a minor rescue operation with a single unit Marine detachment.

If you want more realism with ammo management then give Pulse Rifles 99 rounds and limit Soldiers to two or three extra magazines.
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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by kurugi » 16 Aug 2015, 06:00

Infinite ammo for everybody and no pockets.
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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by Steelpoint » 16 Aug 2015, 06:04

Eh, I just feel like we're taking more and more away from Marines while giving more to the Aliens.
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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by Kilm » 16 Aug 2015, 06:20

The argument is swings and roundabouts. RL soldiers will carry as much ammunition as they can physically haul if they know they're going in for an extended operation. Plus you'd always carry extra among each man which would be the squad resupply, bombed up, plus bandoliers of clips.

I think IIRC that it was common practice to head out on the ground carrying at least twenty mag's worth of ammo per man.

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Re: Colonial Marines Ammo Management: Less is More

Post by Infernus » 16 Aug 2015, 06:35

+1
If RO's supply crate has more ammo in them, and if that ammo box gets added.

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