Make infesting marines less autistic

[ForcefulCJS]

Summary: Keeping marines alive, safe, and under control while infested is one of the worst experiences that a video game can possibly create.

Benefits:

Xenos are unpopular to play for a reason, its extremely boring and unfulfilling when half the hive has to babysit each and every marine and if you relax for one moment the specialist you forgot to check on for 30 seconds has knifed his way out, SADAR'd the queen with the fucking hidden rocket launcher he had in suit storage, and then killed her with the revolver and frags in his bag. It is honestly a legit marine tactic to just send everyone to the nest, lay down flat on the ground to get infested while holding their primary in suit storage, pistol and explosives in bag/belt, and then laugh as the 8 starting xenos cannot possible contain the 40 starting marines who are now facehugger proof, buckleproof (if one marine gets loose and goes on an unbuckling spree), and have ranged weapons that hurt more than the xeno's melee slashes (compare how many hits a hunter needs to kill a marine v. how many bullets kill a hunter), did I mention one was RANGED and can be fired faster than slashes can slash?

Of course nobody DOES that tactic since RP-wise it wouldn't make sense but the whole argument is that nest management is absolutely impossible against marines who are smart and keep a primary in storage, pistol in bag, etc. Only if you can maintain a ratio of ONE vigilant xeno per host is maintaining order even possible but that requires numbers that the xenos just don't have when you still need to maintain an offensive/recon presence and its just completely unfun to have to sit there for 10 minutes watching a marine because they're a goddamn massive threat if they are left alone for even 5 seconds.

Details:

1) Remove the cancer that is unbuckle immunity, if one marine gets out and cuts open the doors to his captured comrades, those comrades are now buckle immune and the xenos have to endure an excruciating experience of trying to stop a fully loaded marine who can't be facehugged or buckled to a nest. Either you have to risk killing them with slashes or sit there and do the RNG tackle spam while they unload bullets into your face.

2) But that means xenos can rebuckle people OH NO! Yea that's how /tg/ does it and its perfectly fine. It rewards aliens who are vigilante about keeping their hosts intact and punishes those who just leave their hosts unattended. Marines do NOT need to get a 3rd, 4th, and 5th chance to survive. After they've already been dumb enough to get facehugged AND captured. If marines really want a rescue they can still yell into their radio, otherwise I see no reason why they get a guaranteed 1-2 escape attempts, its silly.

3) Make suicide harder and make inspecting/stabilizing hosts more effective. Hivelords/Queens should have a way to keep dying hosts alive. Inspection should tell you how close a host is to freeing themselves (WHY ISNT THIS ALREADY A THING?). And regular xenos shouldn't be forced to guess if a host is alive or dead, I mean I can see their heat through 5 reinforced walls, I should be able to see if their body is still warm or cold right? Marines using guns on themselves shouldn't be possible unless they're already in terrible pain. Standing up in the first stages of infestation and blowing your brains out is something that's currently almost impossible for xenos to prevent, it can be done in a split second after standing and its just a shit tactic that denies and host that xenos desperately need since marines start with a numbers advantage AND get a virtual monopoly on dozens on latejoiners.

4) Stop making infestation lethal before chestbursting. Apparently there was a concern about facehugger immune marines just running around forever because there was no ghost ready to burst them. In practice I've never seen this happen, marines who escape either make it to the FOB and burst or get surgery or they get tackle spammed back into a nest and burst there. The upside of this mechanic is meaningless, but the downside is huge, if xenos rush out and quickly infest all the monkeys and small hosts they can find, half of them die before someone is ready to chestburst from them. Its completely unintuitive and an overall bad mechanic.

[DerpinMcDerpDerp]

How are xenomorphs supposed to judge how much time is left until a marine can free him/her self also RNG tackle? Bruh spitters and sentinels are the ones guarding hosts they can just spit -1
Edit: What has autism to do with this you asshole

[Adjective]

This post is more of a rant than an effective suggestion.

[Siserith Vassada]

i've never had trouble mantaining 30+ hosts that i captured alone as a carrier with only a hivelord or drone to make new nests for all the marines that come to rescue their freinds.....

[ForcefulCJS]

I included several concrete ideas for fixing this.


"I had no trouble mantaining 30+ hosts that i captured alone as a carrier "

Ok yea that's cool you MLG noscope the entire marine force by yourself and then dragged them all back to the nest and then you threw a facehugger at the Sulaco so hard that it blew up and it was instant alien victory.

Let's try to stay in reality here.


"How are xenomorphs supposed to judge how much time is left until a marine can free him/her self also RNG tackle? Bruh spitters and sentinels are the ones guarding hosts they can just spit "

They're in a resin nest, they have to free themselves from the resin to escape, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out when someone has knocked off most of the resin and it mere seconds from escaping compared to a fresh host who's still buried under several inches of goop and hasn't even started resisting.

The "use spitters and sentinels" meme just shows you aren't an alien player at all. Spit is a ranged tackle, if you are using spit at range then the marine is literally back on their feet by the time you get in their face. Tackling is just as effective with the added benefit of instantly closing the gap.

But that's not the point, unless you knock them down when they're right on top of the nest (requiring that insane micromanagement which requires half of the hive to camp fresh hosts just to tackle them once every few minutes) you aren't going to be able to buckle them before they're back up again.

I watch one marine last round kill THREE spitters after getting loose because literally ALL you have to do is constantly move perpendicular to a spitter's position and they will never hit you. He just dance left and right and murdered every spitter in the hive with his m4 because (SHOCKER) spitting isn't very good.

[Toroic]

i've never had trouble mantaining 30+ hosts that i captured alone as a carrier with only a hivelord or drone to make new nests for all the marines that come to rescue their freinds.....

This is far more accurate. I've watched multiple hosts at the same time effectively as a hivelord. If you have a good nest design (they should never be able to unbuckle each other) then it is a non-issue.

Host management is part of playing xeno. You won't be able to save them all sometimes, and if they start endangering xenos or other hosts just kill them.

[ForcefulCJS]

With a small number of hosts its possible, but I've seen the following in my past 5 rounds:

1) Infested SL places an orbital beacon on their position and kill the queen when she comes to investigate

2) Specialist with a SADAR gets up, cuts down the door with a knife, kills several xenos with HE rounds before he blows himself up with the last rocket

3) Marine runs into the underground lake, where xenos move at ULTRASLOW speeds. He is tackled repeatedly but literally nobody can pull him out of the lake before he's standing again, eventually is killed after killing several xenos

4) Several instances of marines shooting their face off instantly after standing up, responding within 4-5 seconds is still too slow to stop them

5) Marine cut down his wall (seriously it takes only a few seconds with the knife or a M4) and puts mines down on the path to his nest, gets three easy kills when various xenos see him loose and mines being almost invisible when various gibs/items/etc. cover the area.

Having to kill a few hosts wouldn't be a big deal if the marines weren't constantly getting new players/multikeyers/latejoiners for reinforcements. Without a HIGH success rate on infestation the xenos will stay completely outnumbered. Currently the ratio I'm seeing during primetime is 6:1 to 7:1. Xenos NEED more successful infestations to get the numbers necessary to crack the Marine FOB and Sulaco.

Last two rounds were Marine: 40 Xeno: 0 and Marine: 59 Xeno: 0. We had to kill FAR too many hosts (or hosts killed themselves). You're welcome to play xeno with me and show me how its done, but when I see hivelords all I see are big purple barneys that can't even outrun a marine on weeds. I'm not proposing that we remove host-watching, my proposals simply make it so that getting half the hive fragged/SADAR'd/shot up isn't happening EVERY ROUND.

These are INTUITIVE ways to fix balance while making the game more enjoyable.

[DerpinMcDerpDerp]

Xenomorphs don't get killed by HE rounds they get downed the lake also slows down marines

[ForcefulCJS]

Xenomorphs don't get killed by HE rounds they get downed the lake also slows down marines

Yes but the whole point was the xenos couldn't slash the marine, they only had tackle, and with the slows on BOTH sides, the xenos could only move him 2 tiles after a successful tackle, he would get up, move one tile down, get his weapon again, etc.

These were mostly spitters too so even in water he had 0 problems strafing the spitters. Spitters had almost 0% hit rate because moving a single tile left or right once the spit has been fired will dodge it. Even when they got a close range spit off, by the time they crawled into the water to get him, he was already up and shooting again.

I was observing, it was really clear that the average xeno with slashing disabled cannot take on an infested armed marine in the water. He took on 4x his number since they literally had no way to keep him stunned besides RNGtackle.

Yes HE rounds don't kill but someone with hotkeys can just unwield, pop out a revolver/knife, and easily finish the job. Most lower castes will be crit with the weeds gone, so they're as good as dead anyway. Plus the kill happens so fast you can rarely warn others so the xenos tend to wander into the SADAR deathtrap one at a time wondering where those explosions are coming from.

[Toroic]

With a small number of hosts its possible, but I've seen the following in my past 5 rounds:

1) Infested SL places an orbital beacon on their position and kill the queen when she comes to investigate

2) Specialist with a SADAR gets up, cuts down the door with a knife, kills several xenos with HE rounds before he blows himself up with the last rocket

3) Marine runs into the underground lake, where xenos move at ULTRASLOW speeds. He is tackled repeatedly but literally nobody can pull him out of the lake before he's standing again, eventually is killed after killing several xenos

4) Several instances of marines shooting their face off instantly after standing up, responding within 4-5 seconds is still too slow to stop them

5) Marine cut down his wall (seriously it takes only a few seconds with the knife or a M4) and puts mines down on the path to his nest, gets three easy kills when various xenos see him loose and mines being almost invisible when various gibs/items/etc. cover the area.

Having to kill a few hosts wouldn't be a big deal if the marines weren't constantly getting new players/multikeyers/latejoiners for reinforcements. Without a HIGH success rate on infestation the xenos will stay completely outnumbered. Currently the ratio I'm seeing during primetime is 6:1 to 7:1. Xenos NEED more successful infestations to get the numbers necessary to crack the Marine FOB and Sulaco.

Last two rounds were Marine: 40 Xeno: 0 and Marine: 59 Xeno: 0. We had to kill FAR too many hosts (or hosts killed themselves). You're welcome to play xeno with me and show me how its done, but when I see hivelords all I see are big purple barneys that can't even outrun a marine on weeds. I'm not proposing that we remove host-watching, my proposals simply make it so that getting half the hive fragged/SADAR'd/shot up isn't happening EVERY ROUND.

These are INTUITIVE ways to fix balance while making the game more enjoyable.

I wasn't there for these incidents, but these are my thoughts on them:

1) Queens should not be investigating anything, and orbitals don't work in the caves. Probably a combination of a bad queen and a clever SL

2) When I design nests, the nest room is usually a nest/door checkerboard, and in the event a host does escape they have a cramped area with sticky resin to escape out of after that before they get into the hive proper. So basically they'd have to get past several doors, sticky resin, and then another door/wall before they'd have enough room to really kite xenos. A SADAR is always a threat, but that would mitigate it significantly.

3) This also comes back to a robust nest design.

4) Probably the most frustrating aspect you mentioned, and I've been salty before when I was unable to tackle a marine in time. Fortunately, most marines aren't willing to suicide very often, and it's hilarious when you manage to stop them and drag away their only pistol.

5) Gotta give credit to that marine for their cleverness, but it again comes back to being good with nest design, so you can come from multiple directions to subdue the marine.

If you're within visual range of the marine it lets you know they escaped, and you can spam tackle as you move into the 1 square range. Ultimately though, good nest design is your first and best defense.

The queen is often in the nest most of the game, and with her screech and guard pheremones most host uprisings end as soon as they begin.

[Gamarr]

Hilarious to see you here. Anyway, trying to maintain a giant hive of infected hosts .... I pretty much say you get what you deserve if one gets free and you get the avalanche of shit to befall ye as they go on a chain of unbuckling.

You try to infect some, but infecting every single thing to the detriment of your hive is your own fault. The mindset of 'infect no matter the cost' that later changes to 'decap everything' is also the fault of the players, and are awful.

Giant clusterfucks can also be prevented by just making smaller nests all over and taking various infected to each instead of hoarding all in one singular spot. This is even manageable with xeno tunnels.

About facehugger protection, the whole mechanic of them being thrown by xenos is bad but I'm at a loss as to how you can fix an part of that situation, but agree the protection is bleh. Saying that- the whole xenos use them as a touch stun is also just as meh, so it evens out.

[Toroic]

Hilarious to see you here. Anyway, trying to maintain a giant hive of infected hosts .... I pretty much say you get what you deserve if one gets free and you get the avalanche of shit to befall ye as they go on a chain of unbuckling.

You try to infect some, but infecting every single thing to the detriment of your hive is your own fault. The mindset of 'infect no matter the cost' that later changes to 'decap everything' is also the fault of the players, and are awful.

Giant clusterfucks can also be prevented by just making smaller nests all over and taking various infected to each instead of hoarding all in one singular spot. This is even manageable with xeno tunnels.

About facehugger protection, the whole mechanic of them being thrown by xenos is bad but I'm at a loss as to how you can fix an part of that situation, but agree the protection is bleh. Saying that- the whole xenos use them as a touch stun is also just as meh, so it evens out.

Unfortunately, the choice to infect comes down to what the queen says, and many queens are bad.

Having too many hosts is a common problem, but I find that killing unruly hosts is generally safer. By the second grenade drop a marine is probably getting slashed in the hand or foot.

[ForcefulCJS]

Xenos are an unpopular pick and playing a Hivebabysitter caste is even less popular than that. Sure it shouldn't fall on the queen to watch hosts but there's usually 1-2 others at MOST who are willing to sit around babysitting nests for 10+ minutes at a time. Typically that number is 0 and the queen is the only one who can react to infested hosts.

With the current population ratios its just not realistic though. It's been somewhere between 6:1 and 7:1. When xenos manage to survive a full marine assault with a high number of captured marines, they shouldn't be heavily punished for it. It's usually exacerbated since xenos will lose a good % of their forces in a direct attack with SADAR's and shit, and even if you win you're outnumbered the number of hosts you've captured, and when they wake up you can't rely on a long facehugger stun to control them anymore... neurotoxin and tackles are baby stuns that barely let you drag them 2 tiles before they're up again. If you don't stop them before they shoot/knife down the nearest door, you've got a full blown shitshow trying to control them as they run off while other hosts continue to break out while you're dealing with one escapee.

I know I'm vastly outnumbered by marine players here but it really is just a bad mechanic as it is. There's some imbalances that just come down to "bad players" but honestly this isn't one of them. It's just asking too much to have the already vastly outnumbered xeno team commit more than half their forces to babysitting duty. It's not fun at all and it's way too punishing for even the slightest mistakes (OH YOU NEEDED TO PEE DURING THIS 2 HOUR ROUND? GUESS WHICH MARINE JUST BROKE OUT AND SHOT YOU TO DEATH?).

With rebuckling you can still require xenos to watch hosts, and punish bad xenos who leave their hosts unsupervised, but without this ridiculously frustrating system where marines are suiciding if you aren't sitting 4 feet away with a stun as soon as they get up.


Also the INFESTATION KILLS YOU system should be removed without question. Nobody has even debated that and there really shouldn't be a debate. It's idiotic. Everything encourages xenos to stockpile hosts but every round I see several monkeys who die from infestation before bursting. It's a kick in the nuts when the odds are already stacked against you.

[apophis775]

Denied and locked for salt/rage.

Make a suggestion, not a rant.