recent slew of marine victorys and how to rebalance

[MilesWolfe]

Well the more changes the more imbalanced it's gonna be. We've pretty much got it perfect now.

I agree, its pretty balanced as it is, And played since the nostromo days so I can compare it to back then

[Azmodan412]

I have read the new balance: 31 marine victories to 32 xeno victories. Xenos wreck lowpop, marines play to win on highpop. Its balanced as is.

[Toroic]

I have read the new balance: 31 marine victories to 32 xeno victories. Xenos wreck lowpop, marines play to win on highpop. Its balanced as is.

I really wouldn't say marines "play to win" that often on highpop either. Marines have won despite immense amounts of chucklefuckery. Really, the only way high pop marines should lose is breaching the ship or letting the supermatter go critical.

But when marines numbers go from 20-80, and xenos go from 10-20, you're going to have balance problems.

I still believe that the crux of the issue is that hanger defenses are too good, and the prison FOB is too weak. highpop marines just have overwhelming numbers, and lowpop get overrun.

[MilesWolfe]

I dont see how not building in the hanger will re balance anything. if they don't focus on the hanger they'll more time to focus on somewhere else like medical, and other places that generally get ignored. And it wouldn't be long that players started complaining about that, saying things like we shouldnt be able to build around ladders . So if anything I think it would just Delay the issue until xenos move up the ladders.

[Toroic]

I dont see how not building in the hanger will re balance anything. if they don't focus on the hanger they'll more time to focus on somewhere else like medical, and other places that generally get ignored. And it wouldn't be long that players started complaining about that, saying things like we shouldnt be able to build around ladders . So if anything I think it would just Delay the issue until xenos move up the ladders.

If marines fortify anything but the hanger, then xenos have multiple ways they can attack.

The hanger defenses severely limit xeno responses, and a mistake means death

[MilesWolfe]

look the problem isnt marines fortifying the hanger as much as it is marines sitting around on the sulaco waiting for the chance to jump at building around it.

[Toroic]

look the problem isnt marines fortifying the hanger as much as it is marines sitting around on the sulaco waiting for the chance to jump at building around it.

You don't change the behavior and then change the mechanics, you change the mechanics to change the behavior.

[MilesWolfe]

what im saying is you need to give marines a reason that will force them to fight on the ground. I still stand by my earlier comment that I dont think not being able to build anything will make a difference, if you have 25 marines on both sides of the shuttle in the hanger, a few grills and tables wont make much of a difference. chances are youll still lose. And fortifications in the hanger are much needed for low pop round where it actually can make a differance.

[Wickedtemp]

Bigboss has a bit of a point, although the Xeno's would have more of a chance, given how only the marine side is really getting the high-pop numbers, the Xeno's would likely lose based on that alone.

[Azmodan412]

95% of all the players on the server have xeno turned off so it really isn't a contest from the getgo.

[Toroic]

what im saying is you need to give marines a reason that will force them to fight on the ground. I still stand by my earlier comment that I dont think not being able to build anything will make a difference, if you have 25 marines on both sides of the shuttle in the hanger, a few grills and tables wont make much of a difference. chances are youll still lose. And fortifications in the hanger are much needed for low pop round where it actually can make a differance.

To be quite honest, breaching was that mechanic. One surviving xeno could depressurize the ship. I dislike breaching, so I don't want it brought back.

If hanger forts are weaker, xenos have a fighting chanse in highpop. Lowpop is a problem, but the truth is lowpop is not what the game was intended for. Marines have a lot of support staff.

Worse hanger forts mean that marines need to put more effort into holding the FOB than they usually do, because they won't have a free chance to kill xeno team with an unbreakable hanger defense.

Right now, if xenos get stuck in the hanger, the answer is to go back and camp the dropship themselves. This delays the game for hours.

Xenos should be at an advantage when marines are driven back to their ship. At that point, marines have failed their primary objective, and xenos have won theirs.

The very next action should not be to put the winning team at a massive disadvantage.

What lowpop marines need to do is fortify and try to escape on the shuttle when they get boarded. I feel like nearly every marine player considers an alien minor to be equivalent to a draw or marine minor.

[cheesebagel]

I don't understand why the win rates need to be 50/50. I fondly remember the old Nostromo days when aliens kicked the marines ass most of the time, which they rightfully should. Aliens should be feared, they're fucking BADASS ALIENS. Nowadays aliens don't get respect because they're weak, one example is how runners seem to be made of toilet paper. The win rate should be something like 80% for aliens, that would give them the respect(fear) they deserve. With the odds stacked against marines, when they do somehow achieve victory it's something to be proud of, while aliens get to massacre which is what being an alien should be about. Aliens being the favorites to win would also shorten the average round time as they'd be much more aggressive making decisive battles occur much faster.

Overall, I know my inputs are a pipe dream and most won't agree, but it's nice to remember the Nostro days for me.

[Inaf]

I just want x2 speedup for t3 xenos (except hivelord maybe).
Maybe, we will commence such experiment for a week or two, like we did with incresing damage from marines weapons?

[Durper]

I think its not the games fault, its the players fault. Because its the only variable that can change almost every round while the maps stay the same, people tend to change as they play more, react differently every round, this includes both marine and xeno. So its gonna be hard to change something to the game to make every round fair because the players will probably make every round different, unfair or not.

I've been playing for a few weeks, mostly as a marine, and two things that makes marines win a lot is the Command Staff and the Support staff if they are competent and can communicate with each other and the marines, or if they are very bad marines tend to retreat to the sulaco and camp hard in the hanger (even sometimes breaking the rule to set up defenses early before the queen accesses the shuttle/pod controls), this tactic makes round's kinda fast and boring.

All in all, you could make the xeno's a bit tougher I guess because marines do have a distinct advantage to defenses on the sulaco, or change the sulaco and make it more alien friendly but not to friendly that the marines will get ass raped in all the round. But then again that would mean marines defending FOB will get slaughtered more easily and you'd have to end up buffing the marines or de-buffing the aliens which would bring you back to square one(GG no re there is no balancing issue its all the players skill that matters). But then again I am new so I don't know maybe there is an issue with the game I'm not seeing.

[forwardslashN]

As a competent xeno player, I can say with absolute confidence that aliens are far more powerful than the marines right now. A decently prepared xeno force can absolutely wreck marine assaults and defenses. A carrier, for example, can hold off five marines with relative ease without any support, just by spamming huggers when marines try to turn a corner. A runner can auto-stun and drag off a marine in a 1v1 fight without any issue. Every caste can do this, more or less, because xenos rely on 60 seconds stuns that are brutal and punishing. Xenos also have quick regeneration, thermal vision, and instantaneous communication, and easily renewable resources. Unless marines are organized and smart, it is far too easy to break them apart, demoralize them, and then pick them off.

If you actually look at how rounds typically go, xenos dominate the planet/prison, wreck shit, take over, and then go the shuttle. Once on the Sulaco, they get destroyed by the marine force most of the time, marine major. It isn't often where the xenos break out of the hanger, typically because no one set up defenses, and even with the recent larva changes aliens still have SSD larva on the planetside when they hit the shuttle. The other side of the issue is that marines have late joiners bolstering their ranks and a 10 KIAs on the alien side hurt a lot more than the marine side. So somehow that equals out the win v win ratio, but I don't think it's entirely balanced on both sides.

I also don't think it should be entirely balanced because of the roleplaying components of CM it would be sort of counter intuitive to competition in itself (competitive games don't have rp). Just stick closer to the lore, make it fun and atmospheric, and tweak things that are obviously exploited.

My dream list:

--Remove the hugger carrying spam, unless they're a queen, hivelord, or carrier. Make xenos work for their hosts via grabs, stuns, etc, and drag hosts back to the hive or wherever eggs are located to infect there. As much as I like to screw with marines, this really needs to go. Currently the xeno grab is just a drag when it can be a very powerful tool in the xeno arsenal to drag marines. Marines, for example, could resist the grab in steps to potentially break it and get away, giving them a sense of participation, though the chance to do so would be low and typically require the xeno to be distracted with something else.
--EDIT: No more taking off huggers from infected marines. If they're already hugged, they're shit out of luck until surgery. Hopefully taken with suggestion of capping tier 3s.
--Make all xenos actually scary. Even movie drones were rape machines while in CM they're push overs that you can punch to death. Make xenos break bones with their punches, knock people into unconsciousness, knock them around/back, quickly reinforce grab marines and so on. And also slightly faster than marines tier 1-2, though this may be simply too OP. Right now there is nothing scarier to a marine than friendly fire or a carrier.
--Cap the amount of tier castes that can be present at any time. Tier 3s are an evolutionary response to specific threats. One ravager and five hunters makes a lot more sense than six ravagers. And please, no more 3+ carriers.
--Actual objectives for the marines to accomplish so they're not patrolling uselessly. Randomly spawned and known to the officer staff and SLs. For example, retrieve a secured briefcase from the internal affairs dome and send it back via cargo shuttle. If the marines don't accomplish these before killing all xenos, it's only a minor marine victory. If they accomplish objectives and escape, it's a tie.
--Some alternative means for the xenos to make it on the Sulaco, but in smaller numbers? Maybe a cargo crate on prison that randomly docks with the ship, or some abandoned escape pod that can still fly somewhat. Alternatively, and this is entirely possible, re purpose the the various ERT landing zones into generic docking points where any sufficiently large shuttle can dock.

Marines fortify the hanger because it's the only and last way to reliably clutch the xenos based on what I've outlined above. It's a symptom of a larger problem with the marines often losing the planet/prison due to how easy it is break them apart with hugger stuns. Unless they mount an early (BEFORE the xenos have time to evolve into t3s) overwhelming offensive, they are at more of a disadvantage. Xenos get stronger the more the round drags on because they evolve and spread weeds. Marines get weaker.

[Toroic]

As a competent xeno player, I can say with absolute confidence that aliens are far more powerful than the marines right now. A decently prepared xeno force can absolutely wreck marine assaults and defenses. A carrier, for example, can hold off five marines with relative ease without any support, just by spamming huggers when marines try to turn a corner. A runner can auto-stun and drag off a marine in a 1v1 fight without any issue. Every caste can do this, more or less, because xenos rely on 60 seconds stuns that are brutal and punishing. Xenos also have quick regeneration, thermal vision, and instantaneous communication, and easily renewable resources. Unless marines are organized and smart, it is far too easy to break them apart, demoralize them, and then pick them off.

If you actually look at how rounds typically go, xenos dominate the planet/prison, wreck shit, take over, and then go the shuttle. Once on the Sulaco, they get destroyed by the marine force most of the time, marine major. It isn't often where the xenos break out of the hanger, typically because no one set up defenses, and even with the recent larva changes aliens still have SSD larva on the planetside when they hit the shuttle. The other side of the issue is that marines have late joiners bolstering their ranks and a 10 KIAs on the alien side hurt a lot more than the marine side. So somehow that equals out the win v win ratio, but I don't think it's entirely balanced on both sides.

I also don't think it should be entirely balanced because of the roleplaying components of CM it would be sort of counter intuitive to competition in itself (competitive games don't have rp). Just stick closer to the lore, make it fun and atmospheric, and tweak things that are obviously exploited.

My dream list:

--Remove the hugger carrying spam, unless they're a queen, hivelord, or carrier. Make xenos work for their hosts via grabs, stuns, etc, and drag hosts back to the hive or wherever eggs are located to infect there. As much as I like to screw with marines, this really needs to go.
--Make all xenos actually scary. Even movie drones were rape machines while in CM they're push overs. Make xenos break bones with their punches, knock people into unconsciousness, knock them around/back, quickly reinforce grab marines and so on. And also slightly faster than marines tier 1-2. Right now there is nothing scarier to a marine than friendly fire.
--Cap the amount of tier castes that can be present at any time. Tier 3s are an evolutionary response to specific threats. One ravager and five hunters makes a lot more sense than six ravagers. And please, no more 3+ carriers.
--Actual objectives for the marines to accomplish so they're not patrolling uselessly. Randomly spawned and known to the officer staff and SLs. For example, retrieve a secured briefcase from the internal affairs dome and send it back via cargo shuttle. If the marines don't accomplish these before killing all xenos, it's only a minor marine victory. If they accomplish objectives and escape, it's a tie.
--Some alternative means for the xenos to make it on the Sulaco, but in smaller numbers? Maybe a cargo crate on prison that randomly docks with the ship, or some abandoned escape pod that can still fly somewhat.

Marines fortify the hanger because it's the only and last way to reliably clutch the xenos based on what I've outlined above. It's a symptom of a larger problem with the marines often losing the planet/prison due to how easy it is break them apart with hugger stuns. Unless they mount an early (BEFORE the xenos have time to evolve into t3s) overwhelming offensive, they are at more of a disadvantage. Xenos get stronger the more the round drags on because they evolve and spread weeds. Marines get weaker.

I generally agree with these suggestions for the planet, but they'd have to happen all at once.

Most tiers being slower than marines and having shitty tackles makes it difficult to drag them any significant distance. Hugger spam is powerful, but it's also pretty easy for a hugger to be removed by competent marines before it infects.

The prison is a completely different issue. Marines have nothing on the prison worth holding, so they pull back to the sulaco after sustaining minimal losses, and there aren't nearly as many hosts on the prison, so one dipshit runner can waste 4-5 that can't be spared.

Intentional breaching is disallowed, but marines have a lot of ways to unintentionally breach. Frags near windows is a popular one.

Once the prison is breached, marines can't attack easily but xenos have no way to increase their numbers, while dead marines continue to be cloned.

Death by attrition.

[SkyeAuroline]

What lowpop marines need to do is fortify and try to escape on the shuttle when they get boarded. I feel like nearly every marine player considers an alien minor to be equivalent to a draw or marine minor.

It's a shame the escape shuttle is completely blocked from being called without admin intervention. I've tried getting the shuttle called when I'm in command and we're boarded/getting trashed; invariably I get no response from admins. But sure, Blackdragon can still sit and say "if you don't respond to command in 2 minutes with no leadup to this message we're blowing up the ship", or directly damage someone who's contacting command. (just two examples from the same, most recent round I commanded) But allowing a commander to do their job and call evac? Nah.

A significant number of our lowpop problems with round length would end if we could call for escape and actually end the round.

[forwardslashN]

I generally agree with these suggestions for the planet, but they'd have to happen all at once.

Most tiers being slower than marines and having shitty tackles makes it difficult to drag them any significant distance. Hugger spam is powerful, but it's also pretty easy for a hugger to be removed by competent marines before it infects.

The prison is a completely different issue. Marines have nothing on the prison worth holding, so they pull back to the sulaco after sustaining minimal losses, and there aren't nearly as many hosts on the prison, so one dipshit runner can waste 4-5 that can't be spared.

Intentional breaching is disallowed, but marines have a lot of ways to unintentionally breach. Frags near windows is a popular one.

Once the prison is breached, marines can't attack easily but xenos have no way to increase their numbers, while dead marines continue to be cloned.

Death by attrition.

This is all true. I forgot to add, marines shouldn't be taking huggers off in the first place.

[MilesWolfe]

It's a shame the escape shuttle is completely blocked from being called without admin intervention. I've tried getting the shuttle called when I'm in command and we're boarded/getting trashed; invariably I get no response from admins. But sure, Blackdragon can still sit and say "if you don't respond to command in 2 minutes with no leadup to this message we're blowing up the ship", or directly damage someone who's contacting command. (just two examples from the same, most recent round I commanded) But allowing a commander to do their job and call evac? Nah.

A significant number of our lowpop problems with round length would end if we could call for escape and actually end the round.

Type vote in the command prompt, then crew transtfer.

[SkyeAuroline]

Type vote in the command prompt, then crew transtfer.

And get the vote canceled, 99% chance. Yay.

[Lostmixup]

People seem to not like to play aliens atm. Perhaps there's something specifically not fun about them that's keeping people away?

[Toroic]

People seem to not like to play aliens atm. Perhaps there's something specifically not fun about them that's keeping people away?

I think for a lot of marines the lack of individuality is a dealbreaker, and you can't really form friendships with other xenos round to round easily.

Apart from that, playing xeno since the damage increase has gotten quite difficult. You wait an hour to evolve, one mistake and you're dead without ever hitting peak strength. Smaller castes are more difficult to pull to safety before they die compared with before.

Even marines who die early get their full custom loadout before they do, so they can see it as a blaze of glory.

Xeno castes also tend to benefit greatly from the addition of macros, and many have extensive verb usage.

There are also some ss13 specific psychology that hold over.

If you play natural selection, or starcraft, marine/terran, they don't consider themselves the "good guys" and the enemy team "antags." It's just two teams.

Marine players seem to show an incredible amount of anger towards the xeno team, and LOOC insults after you kill a marine are way more common than they should be, for things like "tackle spam" or "op huggers." I've never been like "fuck you left click heros, no skill to be marine." It makes no sense.

Marines also treat alien minor victories like marine victories, because in ss13 having survivors on the escape shuttle is a win condition against many antags. When they get an alien minor, they feel like they've lost.

So the special snowflakes don't play xeno, the people who take it personally don't play xeno, scrubs play xeno but get easily killed and immediately log.

For a new player, xeno is also tough because you change your gameplay as you evolve. Runner vs crusher or drone vs carrier. You don't really get a chance to figure out a caste before you evolve to a new one.

Then there's the tips and tricks. For example, if I'm playing xeno I frequently toggle darkvision so I can see what marines see as far as hiding in darkness, which hugely impacts a xeno's ability to move unseen.

In contrast, any player can walk in as a standard and if they can fire their gun and stick together with other marines, they'll do alright.

So to play xeno regularly, you need to be ok with no recognition, a steeper learning curve, always being outnumbed, low win rates in peak hours. On the prison, it is unlikely that you will get a second life if you die as a t3, because there are no larva left an hour in.

How to make playing xeno better?

1) Ckey tags, so xenos players can have a community

2) Make hanger forts less powerful

3) Stop treating alien minors as wins, treat them like a draw because no marine considers that to be a loss if marines survive because that's how it is in ss13.

I think that will make playing xeno more popular in the short term and the long term. It sucks horribly to be a xeno team and kicking ass amd get wiped in the hanger without any way to fight back. Someone who is just trying xeno out is gonna go "fuck this."

[Wickedtemp]

I think for a lot of marines the lack of individuality is a dealbreaker, and you can't really form friendships with other xenos round to round easily.

Apart from that, playing xeno since the damage increase has gotten quite difficult. You wait an hour to evolve, one mistake and you're dead without ever hitting peak strength. Smaller castes are more difficult to pull to safety before they die compared with before.

Even marines who die early get their full custom loadout before they do, so they can see it as a blaze of glory.

Xeno castes also tend to benefit greatly from the addition of macros, and many have extensive verb usage.

There are also some ss13 specific psychology that hold over.

If you play natural selection, or starcraft, marine/terran, they don't consider themselves the "good guys" and the enemy team "antags." It's just two teams.

Marine players seem to show an incredible amount of anger towards the xeno team, and LOOC insults after you kill a marine are way more common than they should be, for things like "tackle spam" or "op huggers." I've never been like "fuck you left click heros, no skill to be marine." It makes no sense.

Marines also treat alien minor victories like marine victories, because in ss13 having survivors on the escape shuttle is a win condition against many antags. When they get an alien minor, they feel like they've lost.

So the special snowflakes don't play xeno, the people who take it personally don't play xeno, scrubs play xeno but get easily killed and immediately log.

For a new player, xeno is also tough because you change your gameplay as you evolve. Runner vs crusher or drone vs carrier. You don't really get a chance to figure out a caste before you evolve to a new one.

Then there's the tips and tricks. For example, if I'm playing xeno I frequently toggle darkvision so I can see what marines see as far as hiding in darkness, which hugely impacts a xeno's ability to move unseen.

In contrast, any player can walk in as a standard and if they can fire their gun and stick together with other marines, they'll do alright.

So to play xeno regularly, you need to be ok with no recognition, a steeper learning curve, always being outnumbed, low win rates in peak hours. On the prison, it is unlikely that you will get a second life if you die as a t3, because there are no larva left an hour in.

How to make playing xeno better?

1) Ckey tags, so xenos players can have a community

2) Make hanger forts less powerful

3) Stop treating alien minors as wins, treat them like a draw because no marine considers that to be a loss if marines survive because that's how it is in ss13.

I think that will make playing xeno more popular in the short term and the long term. It sucks horribly to be a xeno team and kicking ass amd get wiped in the hanger without any way to fight back. Someone who is just trying xeno out is gonna go "fuck this."

... Yeah, pretty much this. Xenos are mostly doing alright until they invade the hangar and are literal fish in a barrel without any way to fight back. Individuality would be nice as well, at least you'd know who's good at Xeno. And as for alien minor victories, they don't exist. If marines survive, it's a marine victory. If they evacuate and they live, it's a marine minor victory.

Also it seems that the main playerbase in-game is... almost toxic to the Xenos, past the point where it's just playful banter. Any suggestion to make xeno gameplay easier is often shot down with "lol git gud xeno shits" and similar comments. Not to mention the fact that during high-pop, playing xeno is basically hitting the "I want to lose." button. Yeah, sometimes you can have a good time while losing, but not when a large portion of the other team is toxic, play-to-win teabaggers.

[Azmodan412]

As a constant xeno player, I usually play as Queen and do a damn good job at it. (EYE OF CTHULHU EGGS! WOO!) It would be nice to have some sort of individuality for people who have played, say 10 rounds that ended with a xeno major victory.

[Lostmixup]

I also see playing as xeno as fighting against my own team. It's kinda hard to switch teams and then have the enthusiasm to fight your own teammates.