recent slew of marine victorys and how to rebalance

[Siserith Vassada]

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary):suddenly mariens are winning all the time for once. usually by pulling back to the sulaco with 30+ marines not including non combatants. i suggest a buff to t3's particualry health and aromour. and perhapase damage.

Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole):rebalance

Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc):ravagers would be slightly faster and have better armour and damage a certain armour pentration value if possible. pretoarins would recive a buff to armour and hp much more than that of ravager. their slash would be weaker but their spit would have mroe damage. crushers would have slightly more hp. queen would have vastly more hp armour and damage. befitting her high rank. a 2.5 buff to health and 2.0 buff to armour and 1.5 on damage.

Implementation (Optional, if you have an idea how to implement it):changing the values



recenlty the mariens have to of been winnign 90% of the time. this or other changes that would improve the xenos ability to assault fortifcations would add a re balance to the common sulaco camping of recent times or removing the ability to build in hanger again for "structual reasons"

[Siserith Vassada]

i normally play marine... so as to be able to notice it from the marine side.. must say somthings wrong. but this may not neccisarily be the way to fix it.

[Terminator541]

I noticed actually, that during Prison rounds the xenos tend to win a lot more often, while on the standard map marines have been winning more. It seems more a map balance thing.

[Siserith Vassada]

every time i've seen the prson map recently it's the marines rushing the hive and slaughting all the xenos

[Vivalas]

I'm of the opinion that the ability for marines to win depends solely on teamwork, the competence of command, and the overall skill and leadership of SLs. When they all work together they are a force to be reckoned with. I don't think balance is an issue, before people claimed aliens were OP, now they're claiming marines are?

[Siserith Vassada]

it's sort of the fact that the mariens are abusing the sulaco hanger to kill all the xenos.

[Toroic]

I'm of the opinion that the ability for marines to win depends solely on teamwork, the competence of command, and the overall skill and leadership of SLs. When they all work together they are a force to be reckoned with. I don't think balance is an issue, before people claimed aliens were OP, now they're claiming marines are?

No reasonable person thinks the xenos were OP after the marine damage buff.

[Siserith Vassada]

what generally happens now is the marines charge the hive early on... get fucked... pull back(with numbers)... and the xenos get fucked when they attack.

[Wickedtemp]

Hangar Fortresses are PARTIALLY to blame... Mostly? It's numbers. Sheer numbers. 10 xenos can't win against 60 marines. So, +1 to the buff.

Also I think that a passive buff could be added to xenos if they're outnumbered at a 5 to 1 ratio or more, because THAT'S why the xenos are getting stomped, they're fighting like 50-60 marines. The 8 xenos they have, the rest being SSD larvae, could repel an attack and nest/kill 20 marines, but they've still got another 40 to take care of...

[Toroic]

I've been thinking a lot about this, as analyzing xeno strategy has been my hobby this last week, and I think most xeno issues come down to 2 factors.

1) Early game rambos. Runners honestly should not be engaging marines south of the river, at all. It's just a waste, and given how powerful both ravagers and crushers are, a lot of momentum is wasted there. It's easier for 4 t3s to fight 10 marines.

2) Xeno team not transitioning to murderboning as soon as they have 10 ssd larva. Trying to hold onto too many hosts is a recipe for disaster, and if you have 10 ssd larva, you don't need more hosts.

[SkyeAuroline]

2) Xeno team not transitioning to murderboning as soon as they have 10 ssd larva. Trying to hold onto too many hosts is a recipe for disaster, and if you have 10 ssd larva, you don't need more hosts.

Unless you take it from a roleplay perspective (which you should- it's a roleplay server, even if it doesn't act like one), in which case holding onto more hosts is reasonable. And if they pop regardless of whether someone is available to take them over (per that whole vote thing), then it still makes sense from a gameplay perspective. Better to not have cases like last round where there's ~2 hosts and xenos are decapping healthy hosts as they're being moved back to the nest.

[Toroic]

Unless you take it from a roleplay perspective (which you should- it's a roleplay server, even if it doesn't act like one), in which case holding onto more hosts is reasonable. And if they pop regardless of whether someone is available to take them over (per that whole vote thing), then it still makes sense from a gameplay perspective. Better to not have cases like last round where there's ~2 hosts and xenos are decapping healthy hosts as they're being moved back to the nest.

I like roleplaying. I play dnd 5e 1-2 times a week, and I've played on various nwn servers for the express purpose of roleplaying and dungeon delving.

However, I believe that roleplay should compliment mechanics, not fight against them.

After a certain point, the more successful strategy for xenos is to murder without infecting, because then you don't have to watch over hosts, or slowly take over territory (say, on the sulaco). If you murder too early, you starve yourself of hosts. If you murder too late, you delay the round or cause a massive logistical problem controlling hosts for 20 minutes.

I think that if a team has an advantage in CM, they should press that advantage and shoot for a swift victory. If the xenos assault the Sulaco and marines don't have any defenses built, the round is essentially over and everything else is epilogue.

One strategy that used to be effective when hosts wouldn't pop, but sit just before popping was for xeno team to slaughter or bring along hosts remaining on the surface, so any new xenos spawn on the ship instead. Sending the shuttle back for like a sentinel and a drone is a waste of time in many cases.

[Tornadium]

The issue is the Sulaco is the only place you can stop Marines running off and dying.

That's literally it. The amount of incompetent morons on Marines who don't follow orders, don't stay in squads and just run the fuck off to die makes holding the Sulaco much more viable for Marine Commanders. Unless you just feel like losing you eventually say enough is enough and just fortify the Sulaco.

There are 3 outcomes to the game right now.

1. Terrible early aliens leads to the hive getting rushed and wrecked inside 20 minutes.
2. Terrible marines in low pop leads to most of the Marines getting wiped out and the Xenos board and kill the 6-10 remaining people very easily.
3. Terrible marines in high pop leads to most of the first wave getting slaughtered one by one leading to the marines to pull back and fortify with more new joins leading to fortress hanger + 30+ marines defending.

There is no middle ground.

[Davidchan]

Xenos have just been playing shit lately. A round I recently joined wasn't even 45 minutes in and 25 xenos had died before I birthed (observer joined) and six more died in the time it took me to grow up into a drone to be the new queen. These were all sporadic, loner deaths despite upper tier aliens constantly telling runners not to go about on their own, I even make a direct order for runners to travel in groups of two or three upon molting to queen.

We have several players who need to learn how to play xenos or just get xenobanned.

We also need an alternate way for xenos to enter the Sulaco without hijacking a shuttle. A catapult that could launch xenos into space and RNG place them either outside the ship or inside one of the exterior rooms might work, make it a queen/hivelord constructable building that takes 3-5 minutes to build and needs to be fed 250+ plasma for each 'firing' to launch a xeno at the sulaco.

[ForcefulCJS]

Xeno numbers suck because being a xeno can suck. It's no accident that the vast, vast majority of players have disabled xeno selection. I've outlined this in my other suggestions but

(1) Hellish nest management. If you ever go AFK outside the nest you're dead, if you go AFK inside the nest then a marine breaks loose and guns you down while you're using the restroom. It's not fun to manage nests and it's not fun playing a game that has 4+ hour rounds where you can't stop playing for more than 5 seconds without risking death and 30+ minutes of jelly.

(2) Not feeling strong as a Xeno. T3's are largely lackluster with the exception of Crusher, the T2 carrier is better than all the other T3's. It takes an eternity to evolve into something that isn't cannon-fodder for the marines. Xenos need some QOL changes. Right now if I keep a squad leader in my stomach for more than ~40 seconds I risk instantly exploding in a pile of gibs. Who the fuck thinks that's fair or fun?

Same thing applies to the SADAR. Oh I spent 30 minutes saving up to be a Praetorian, the Queen's elite guard, ahah, I've found a lone intruder in our nest *BOOM* *revolver shot x3* "Praetorian 329 has died in Northwestern Caves".

Same thing applies to proxy mines. Oh you didn't right click and inspect every tile on the map for mines? Well looks like that marine's spare mag was hiding a mine that does a shitton of damage and knocks out anything in a 3x3 area, giving them a free kill if you're anything but a crusher. Mines aren't lategame marine tech, they are starting equipment, xenos shouldn't have to wait until T3 to get a wait to detonate them without dying.

Same thing applies to survivors decked out in welding helmets, m4's, and grenade launcher. Losing your first 15 minutes of jelly because some survivor with more weapons and better defense than marines is insanely frustrating.

That's why I get so frustrated talking about nest balance right now. Marines complain that if they get facehugged twice, then isolated from their squad, then abducted to the xeno nest (see instagibbing above, this is a high risk activity unless you've got open vents on prison), they still deserve 2-3 chances to bust out of the nest and shoot up the hive with facehugger immunity. How many chances does my ravager get when he steps on a freshly placed mine while scouting the enemy base? The answer is 1, like it is more most xeno engagements. You have to invest tons of time into a T2+ xeno but you also die to so many thing with little or no counters in a single moment. Meanwhile marines get at LEAST 4 chances to fuck up xenos (unless slashing is on) even if they make the dumbest mistakes possible.

(3) Sulaco defense BS. There are some games where I realize after a hard fought victory on the planet after hours of fighting, we are still destined to lose because I see 10+ marines evac on the dropship and I know there will be 15+ waiting for us behind barriers and tables once we land on the Sulaco, or maybe they get an ERT and its 20+. Marines never have to leave Sulaco to get a major victory and so Xenos are forced to march to their slaughter.

(4) WEIRD LATEJOIN MECHANICS. If I latejoin and observe, I can't play a braindead larva for 10+ minutes but at the same time I'm completely able to appear at any moment as a chestburst larva. If fighting has entered a lull and there are no infested hosts about to pop, observing can mean 10+ minutes of sitting around watching 10 sleeping larva that you can't possess.

[Azmodan412]

Runners and hunters can pounce over mines.

[Wickedtemp]

Runners and hunters can pounce over mines.

The whole reason xenos get blown up by mines is because they didn't see it, not because they couldn't get across it and just decided "Welp, guess I just gotta step on it."

[Nubs]

I think the biggest handicap for t3's at the moment is that they are a slow as hell. For example, If you're working in a group as a crusher and knock a bunch of marines down, any that get up are likely to gun you down with ease as you retreat because you move so damn slow! I've died a great many times trying to get away from a marine only to find that marines loaded down with equipment and weapons run faster than everything bar a hunter/runner. Plus, since every marine has at least 1 or more light sources now, the darkness is no longer your ally. Charging and hoping to knock down is rarely a viable option, as any t1-t2 is likely to get shredded before they get close enough.

The ssd larvae situation is depressing.. over several alien rounds now there can be upwards of 10+ larvae, all ssd, for literal hours because the marines that made them are logged out or have the option off, and any additional marines that die/get captured either have alien off or make more ssd larvae. The ssd larvae timer is way too long at the moment, 10 mins, which is more like 15 mins with byond time, whereas anyone can late join as a marine at the drop of a hat.

Preatorians need a little something extra.. every t3 but them has a immunity, so how about an immunity to electric shocks? Would make the hangar being covered in electrified grilles more manageable, for sure. From my viewpoint, the praetorian is currently just a spitter with a bit more health, the same abilities, and a whole bunch slower.

[WyattH]

Noob aliens aren't using pheromones and teamwork. Even worse many are engaging in combat with marines in areas with zero weeds because so few of the players pick drone.

It's no wonder team alien is faring poorly lately with the newer rambo alien players.

[ForcefulCJS]

Yea I'm not a fan of marines being able to outrun more than 50% of the castes, even on weeds.

I'd rather see the slower castes given some movespeed love though, nothing big, just enough that you aren't a free kill if you aren't constantly hugging cover.

[apophis775]

Last night, during high-pop (75 players) I saw the aliens shit all over the marines.
However, on Monday, when I analyize the data from the 7th to the 14th, I'll know the current ratios, and be able to make adjustments as necessary.

[Siserith Vassada]

also for some more info. aliens can still win but it's rather hard with the bad players and hive rushes right at the start. and most xeno victors of late tend to be late night lowpop

[ParadoxSpace]

Another problem with aliens is that they're really all slow as monkeyballs except runners and hunters.
Like, have you ever played a spitter?
Slow as fuck for no reason.
I believe every alien that isn't a queen should at least slightly outpace marines, who can easily catch up with most castes.

[apophis775]

Current ratio is:
32 Alien to 31 Marine from December 8th to December 14th (7 days).

Raw Data:

Code: Select all

Starting up - 2015-12-08 (00:29:58)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 28
Round time: 14:16

Starting up - 2015-12-08 (03:01:00)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 15
Round time: 12:11

Starting up - 2015-12-08 (03:14:40)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 6
Round time: 12:12

Starting up - 2015-12-08 (03:29:10)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 13
Round time: 14:02

Starting up - 2015-12-08 (05:38:52)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 10. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 13:36

Starting up - 2015-12-08 (07:22:59)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 3. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 14:32

Starting up - 2015-12-08 (10:08:32)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 15. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 13:32

Starting up - 2015-12-08 (11:54:20)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 27. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 13:50

Starting up - 2015-12-08 (14:07:28)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 33
Round time: 13:05

Starting up - 2015-12-08 (15:25:58)
---------------------

Starting up - 2015-12-08 (20:35:44)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 33
Round time: 13:56

Starting up - 2015-12-08 (22:42:52)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 32
Round time: 14:17

Starting up - 2015-12-09 (01:17:20)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 27
Round time: 13:20

Starting up - 2015-12-09 (02:48:38)
---------------------
Alien minor victory (Evac)
Xenos Remaining: 1. Humans remaining: 2
Round time: 14:38

Starting up - 2015-12-09 (05:39:18)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 5. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 13:53

Starting up - 2015-12-09 (07:37:55)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 13. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 13:52

Starting up - 2015-12-09 (09:35:40)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 14. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 14:08

Starting up - 2015-12-09 (11:56:28)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 19. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 15:19

Starting up - 2015-12-09 (15:46:01)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 48
Round time: 14:13

Starting up - 2015-12-09 (18:24:44)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 12. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 15:16

Starting up - 2015-12-09 (22:25:23)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 29
Round time: 13:40

Starting up - 2015-12-10 (00:18:01)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 11. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 13:45

Starting up - 2015-12-10 (02:12:22)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 5. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 13:41

Starting up - 2015-12-10 (04:00:44)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 10
Round time: 12:13

Starting up - 2015-12-10 (04:16:06)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 4. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 13:23

Starting up - 2015-12-10 (05:43:08)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 1. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 12:03

Starting up - 2015-12-10 (05:48:16)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 1
Round time: 12:43

Starting up - 2015-12-10 (06:34:20)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 22
Round time: 17:15

Starting up - 2015-12-10 (12:08:51)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 28
Round time: 15:03

Starting up - 2015-12-10 (15:34:30)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 36
Round time: 14:17

Starting up - 2015-12-10 (18:13:13)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 16
Round time: 15:15

Starting up - 2015-12-10 (22:12:09)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 15. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 13:42

Starting up - 2015-12-11 (00:09:04)
---------------------
Alien minor victory (Evac)
Xenos Remaining: 7. Humans remaining: 7
Round time: 15:09

Starting up - 2015-12-11 (03:37:16)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 5. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 16:27

Starting up - 2015-12-11 (08:24:00)
---------------------
Alien minor victory (Evac)
Xenos Remaining: 1. Humans remaining: 8
Round time: 16:06

Starting up - 2015-12-11 (12:57:04)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 19
Round time: 14:19

Starting up - 2015-12-11 (15:30:40)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 10. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 15:17

Starting up - 2015-12-11 (19:18:30)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 45
Round time: 13:36

Starting up - 2015-12-11 (21:15:24)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 30. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 13:28

Starting up - 2015-12-11 (23:02:56)
---------------------
Alien minor victory (Evac)
Xenos Remaining: 2. Humans remaining: 3
Round time: 14:30

Starting up - 2015-12-12 (02:02:59)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 15
Round time: 14:07

Starting up - 2015-12-12 (04:22:56)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 8. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 13:46

Starting up - 2015-12-12 (06:18:59)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 24
Round time: 15:18

Starting up - 2015-12-12 (09:49:45)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 47
Round time: 13:38

Starting up - 2015-12-12 (11:40:41)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 33
Round time: 14:14

Starting up - 2015-12-12 (14:18:33)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 37
Round time: 14:25

Starting up - 2015-12-12 (17:22:01)
---------------------

Starting up - 2015-12-12 (17:55:18)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 24
Round time: 15:05

Starting up - 2015-12-12 (21:32:54)
---------------------
Alien minor victory (Evac)
Xenos Remaining: 1. Humans remaining: 24
Round time: 15:42

Starting up - 2015-12-13 (01:54:01)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 25
Round time: 15:48

Starting up - 2015-12-13 (06:11:44)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 13
Round time: 14:14

Starting up - 2015-12-13 (08:42:46)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 27
Round time: 14:24

Starting up - 2015-12-13 (11:36:00)
---------------------
Alien minor victory (Evac)
Xenos Remaining: 10. Humans remaining: 4
Round time: 14:13

Starting up - 2015-12-13 (14:13:52)
---------------------

Starting up - 2015-12-13 (14:49:42)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 40
Round time: 15:15

Starting up - 2015-12-13 (18:54:36)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 14. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 15:04

Starting up - 2015-12-13 (22:25:23)
---------------------
Alien minor victory (Evac)
Xenos Remaining: 4. Humans remaining: 20
Round time: 14:05

Starting up - 2015-12-14 (00:52:09)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 11. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 13:06

Starting up - 2015-12-14 (02:10:40)
---------------------
Alien minor victory (Evac)
Xenos Remaining: 8. Humans remaining: 9
Round time: 14:25

Starting up - 2015-12-14 (04:51:05)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 7. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 13:37

Starting up - 2015-12-14 (06:40:19)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 16
Round time: 12:58

Starting up - 2015-12-14 (07:44:19)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 18. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 13:20

Starting up - 2015-12-14 (09:29:16)
---------------------
Alien minor victory (Evac)
Xenos Remaining: 5. Humans remaining: 12
Round time: 14:28

Starting up - 2015-12-14 (12:13:58)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 28
Round time: 16:06

Starting up - 2015-12-14 (16:54:43)
---------------------
Marine major victory
Xenos Remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 52
Round time: 13:32

Starting up - 2015-12-14 (18:51:37)
---------------------
Alien major victory
Xenos Remaining: 9. Humans remaining: 0
Round time: 16:26

I am willing to discuss changes, since most "xeno" wins appear to be at night.

[Sadokist]

Well the more changes the more imbalanced it's gonna be. We've pretty much got it perfect now.