Alien restraints

[Gandalf]

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary):
Alien cuffs/cocoons. A way for xenos to restrain humans for transportation instead of just pulling them and disarming them and getting nowhere.

Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole):
As it stands, xenos are weirdly fucked over when it comes to transporting hosts. There is a single way to stun a human for a significant period of time, and that's the facehugger and works once. The alternatives are to drag and disarm (which considering it stuns them for less than 4 seconds, they can just get up and walk away), eat the human (and inevitably get reverse-bursted cos it takes less than 3 seconds to do so unarmed) or to kill the human (which is bad for everyone, both IC and OOC). What I'm proposing is a way for xenos to semi-safely transport marines and humans out of combat. The keywords are in green, because this isn't something that will be 100% safe for the xenos (thus removing the risk and the potential for escape) and I've thought long and hard about how to make it impractical to use in combat (this will NOT affect the meta in an actual ongoing fight).

Mostly, I think this needs to happen because the current hive management is just bad. If you want to move a human from one nest further into the hive, you're screwed if he's infected already (which he will be). This is bad in game terms as well as in flavour terms.

Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc):
I'll split this up into 3 parts, with pleasantly coloured headings:

Step 1 - Pinning: Xeno grab would have an option to be upgraded into a 'pin'. Pinned humans are treated as restrained, but the xeno can't do anything while pinning a human aside from the action I'm about to talk about. This means no moving, no spitting, no attacking, grabbing or disarming - hence in combat, this would be impractical though perhaps have some niche uses. The human is treated as if nested, restrained but able to resist (random chance of breaking free, reasonable cooldown) and speak. This is heavily inspired by a lot of martial arts code from other codebases so there is a degree of tried-and-tested if you're concerned about that.

Step 2 - Cocooning: Once a host is pinned, the xeno can, at a plasma cost, begin secreting resin restraints over the pinned target's hands. This will take around 20 seconds, obviously will require remaining still and will be subject to a cooldown (I'd make the cooldown reduce for higher-tier castes, as drones will be storing, sentinels will be guarding and hunters will be capturing humans, so all three have an equal share in utility terms). Resisting will take time, I'd say around half the time it takes to escape a nest, and will NOT be interrupted by movement. This way the transporting xeno will need to stay on its claw-toes and there's no bullshit like dragging the host in circles until it bursts.

Step 3 - Transporting and Storing: Once the host has been bound, he's essentially handcuffed. Can't walk away from being dragged, but can resist. After the resistance window ends, he's freed from the restraints and can proceed to pull out an SMG and kill an entire nest. He can also be uncuffed in exactly the same way as normal cuffs work. When put in a nest, the cuffs will become part of the nest too - in this way there's no 'bucklecuffing'.

Implementation (Optional, if you have an idea how to implement it):
Codewise, this is literally slightly modified handcuffs combined with human grabcode. If you want some sprite assets, I'll do them myself. As for shit like cooldowns and breakout times, I think it will be tested and adjusted until the balanced ground is found.

Final Notes (Because this format is alright, but there's more I want to say):
I've thought pretty long and hard about the details of how this would have to work, and seen a lot of potential issues with the concept that I think I've nailed. I will create strawmen of opinions that will inevitably arise, and show how I THINK the initial concerns will be unfounded:

"But if xenos can restrain humans, it's going to be way too easy to capture them, it's perfectly balanced as it is"
Yes and no. The balance is going to be changed, clearly, but I'd emphasise the word changed. As it stands, xenos are critically underpowered in the longterm disabling department. They have two ways to subdue a human nonlethally - stunning and facehugging. One works a single time and is an incredibly long and powerful stun, the other lasts for 3 seconds at most. Considering their ability to kill and their mobility and capability for wide-spread stuns, it's jarring balance-wise that they're powerless against a marine who's infected and not standing near a nest. Secondly, the balance will be compensated for - the restraining procedure takes a LONG time, this is time where the xenomorph is vulnerable and unless the human is being facehugged can shout for help and give their location. It's a big risk for a hunter-caste and opens up other routes for escape that are less jarringly out-of-balance.

"But if xenomorphs can just pin humans until they burst, there's no chance to escape when infected"
This is true. If a nest has the same number of xenos as hosts, and they are all willing to sit on the humans while they develop like nesting birds, the chances of the humans escaping is fairly low. There are three points to this, however, that are pertinent.
Firstly, that's how it is currently - if you've got one sentinel and one infected human in a 1-square nest, he can just stand next to him and neurotox the human every time it breaks free. There is virtually no chance of escape bar a logout or an incredible stroke of luck.
Secondly, if a human succeeds a resist on a pinned xeno, they will escape the pin and very briefly stun the xeno. This is in some ways BETTER for the marine, as it gives them a second to react before being disarmed. Maybe a second to pull out a grenade and pull the pin.
Thirdly, if it's anything more than a starter nest with a few drones and survivors, this would be impractical. You'd need a single xeno for each hatching human and these xenos would be unable to help eachother and wouldn't be capable of doing other, more useful things, like expanding the nest or hunting.

"Sounds impossible to code"
It's literally modified handcuffs and an expanded grabbing system - lots of codebases already have the pinning in their grabbing systems.

This was longer than expected. I'm also going to make another suggestion which will share some synergy with this. Watch this space.

[Seehund]

I like the sound of this - I like it a lot.

Honestly, it'd probably make for some interesting gameplay changes, including a slight change in pace.

+1, I'd like to see this being tested for a bit before reaching a final consensus.

[Varnock]

+1
It's hard enough to actually trigger a pull sometimes, even with hotkeys, let alone keep people downed long enough to get them anywhere. This sounds like a lovely best of both worlds scenario, but with how long it would take to restrain them, you'd still likely need a hugger or several xenos working together.

But then again, that's the point, no?

[Gandalf]

but with how long it would take to restrain them, you'd still likely need a hugger or several xenos working together.

That's where the pinning part comes in. They'd be pinned and unable to move while you apply the restraints, but so would you as the xenomorph.

[Varnock]

That's where the pinning part comes in. They'd be pinned and unable to move while you apply the restraints, but so would you as the xenomorph.

How long are you thinking to make a pin happen?

[Gandalf]

How long are you thinking to make a pin happen?

Well I was thinking a pin would be maybe a second delay after a grab, similar to upgrading a grab as a human. The drawback of the pin isn't that it takes time to set up, it's that it disables you just as much as it does the pinned.

[Disco Dalek]

+1
I really like the sound of this. Even as a marine only player, I always found it odd that xenos had such a hard time dragging someone back to the nest. The numbers you mentioned seem pretty well balanced for both sides at first glance, especially since there is a chance to stun the xeno.

[Varnock]

Well I was thinking a pin would be maybe a second delay after a grab, similar to upgrading a grab as a human. The drawback of the pin isn't that it takes time to set up, it's that it disables you just as much as it does the pinned.

I like it. I like it a lot.

[Gandalf]

I was expecting this to be the controversial of the two suggestions.

Huh.

[Arachnidnexus]

Moving away from the mass huggers and allowing marines to panic while being dragged away sounds like more fun.

[forwardslashN]

-1 on restraints and the general suggestion
+1 to pinning
I like the idea of actually grabbing and pinning people, but I dislike the idea of restraints. Not very lore friendly, and it just turns xenos into MP. Stun and cuff. 60 second hugger stuns are more than enough to get people into nests if you're actually paying attention. I've seen xenos dragging marines across the planet and such, only to have the marine run away, but that's more their fault. Use a tunnel, make another nest, eat them then regurgitate, or just plain don't attempt to drag them back if you know they'll escape. It's pathetically easy to nest marines as it is. If xenos are watching marines IN the nest, as they should be doing, it is very, very difficult to counter checkernesting. And if you are fighting a host of infected marines...they're going to die in a few minutes. You do not need to engage them, unless it's really critical for your survival or something.

Now if we're talking about removing carrying huggers and instastuns, then that opens up another discussion.

[Gandalf]

-1 on restraints and the general suggestion
+1 to pinning
I like the idea of actually grabbing and pinning people, but I dislike the idea of restraints. Not very lore friendly, and it just turns xenos into MP. Stun and cuff. 60 second hugger stuns are more than enough to get people into nests if you're actually paying attention. I've seen xenos dragging marines across the planet and such, only to have the marine run away, but that's more their fault. Use a tunnel, make another nest, eat them then regurgitate, or just plain don't attempt to drag them back if you know they'll escape. It's pathetically easy to nest marines as it is. If xenos are watching marines IN the nest, as they should be doing, it is very, very difficult to counter checkernesting. And if you are fighting a host of infected marines...they're going to die in a few minutes. You do not need to engage them, unless it's really critical for your survival or something.

Now if we're talking about removing carrying huggers and instastuns, then that opens up another discussion.

Problem being that the facehugger stun is the only stun they have access to, and it's a one-shot thing. As I say, while I maintain that aliens not being able to make it to the hive in time is annoying and shitty, the main thing for me is once a human is infected there's pretty much nothing a xeno can do bar killing them. That's at best annoying when it comes to management and organisation, and at worst the cause of multiple deaths cos rules say no killing the infected even when they're going buckwild with a smartgun after breaking all the nests.

As for lore-friendliness, according to the avp wiki:
"Xenomorphs Drones can also produce a thick, strong resin (vomited from their mouths) that they use to build their Hives and to cocoon their victims. This substance has the added effect of paralyzing their victims when regurgitated over their nose and/or mouth, making it easier for the creatures to move them to the Hive for implantation."
So if it works better, could make it a mask instead of cuffs/cocoon and it's a better fit into established lore right there.

[Troydav98]

+1 This idea will help Xenos transport host easier,safer,and while being balanced.

[forwardslashN]

Problem being that the facehugger stun is the only stun they have access to, and it's a one-shot thing. As I say, while I maintain that aliens not being able to make it to the hive in time is annoying and shitty, the main thing for me is once a human is infected there's pretty much nothing a xeno can do bar killing them. That's at best annoying when it comes to management and organisation, and at worst the cause of multiple deaths cos rules say no killing the infected even when they're going buckwild with a smartgun after breaking all the nests.

As for lore-friendliness, according to the avp wiki:
"Xenomorphs Drones can also produce a thick, strong resin (vomited from their mouths) that they use to build their Hives and to cocoon their victims. This substance has the added effect of paralyzing their victims when regurgitated over their nose and/or mouth, making it easier for the creatures to move them to the Hive for implantation."
So if it works better, could make it a mask instead of cuffs/cocoon and it's a better fit into established lore right there.

There is no problem with facehugger stuns outside of being a really lazy way to get hosts. I use them extensively and absolutely devastate marines, and with a little planning even dragging marines across a vast distance isn't an issue. For example, I usually bait people when I know there's a tunnel nearby. Not everyone is hugely robust, but that's where common sense comes in. If you often infect marines with no method of taking them back to the hive, rethink your strategy. You can also tackle spam hosts, especially if you're a hunter or crusher.

As for the rules, you can absolutely kill hosts if they are dangerous to the hive or your immediate safety. If there is no way to disable them, kill them. They'll probably comment in LOOC, but hey, at least they're dead and you're not. The rules forbid harming nested hosts or hosts that cannot fight back, because that's counter intuitive to what you're doing as a xeno.

As for lore friendliness, never heard of that, but okay. Point taken. I'm still completely unsold on the idea though.

[Halinder]

This seems like something strongly dedicated towards benefiting xenos, not humans. It's good that infected hosts have so few options for xenomorphs to deal with, because it strongly enforces xenos to have to use their nests effectively and swiftly.

This seems like the kind of thing that would be added if facehuggers were changed to where they could only be picked up by carriers, making xenos have to drag people back to get infected.

[Logi99]

1+ I thought nest travelling was enough but this helps more

[Boltersam]

Yes. just...yes.

If a host gets free, grabs a gun, and no xeno was guarding them, what can we do? we stun them, try dragging them back, they get up again, even with neurotox, it's getting ridiculous.

Big, fat, +1

If this gets added, I won't see it until Dreamseeker gets its shit together, but it'll definitely be worth the wait.
This isn't a straight up buff to xenos like some other suggestions, this is something that has its disadvantages as well as advantages, and will make gameplay much more interesting. No more limited stuns (Well...yeah, but, now we'll have restraints. so...limited stuns will actually be worth the effort.).

[Azmodan412]

Yes. just...yes.

If a host gets free, grabs a gun, and no xeno was guarding them, what can we do? we stun them, try dragging them back, they get up again, even with neurotox, it's getting ridiculous.

Big, fat, +1

If this gets added, I won't see it until Dreamseeker gets its shit together, but it'll definitely be worth the wait.
This isn't a straight up buff to xenos like some other suggestions, this is something that has its disadvantages as well as advantages, and will make gameplay much more interesting. No more limited stuns (Well...yeah, but, now we'll have restraints. so...limited stuns will actually be worth the effort.).

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=5098

[Wickedtemp]

It often takes several Xenos to bring back one marine. Even with constant tackle-spam, they still often get up, and unless there's a sentinel that's pumping them absolutely full of neurotoxin (which I believe can kill them eventually) then they can get up and possibly shoot and kill one of the xenos before running away.

Marines can outrun almost every xeno except for the runner, which is as fragile as paper now.

[monkeysfist101]

+1 to pinning if a marine can break it with resist.
-1 to everything else.

[outordinary]

I say +1 to everything, it will require some testing as far as the time windows for everything.

You can also tackle spam hosts, especially if you're a hunter or crusher.

As for the rules, you can absolutely kill hosts if they are dangerous to the hive or your immediate safety. If there is no way to disable them, kill them. They'll probably comment in LOOC, but hey, at least they're dead and you're not. The rules forbid harming nested hosts or hosts that cannot fight back, because that's counter intuitive to what you're doing as a xeno.

Killing hosts in general is counter intuitive to what you're doing as a xeno, which is expanding the hive. This suggestion helps to push the main objective. It is also helpful to the marines because xenos won't have to go in killing sprees due to "hugging and watching hosts taking too much time" as I've heard a few times.

This seems like something strongly dedicated towards benefiting xenos, not humans. It's good that infected hosts have so few options for xenomorphs to deal with, because it strongly enforces xenos to have to use their nests effectively and swiftly.

It means less marine murderboner sprees with head chopping, good benefit to me. Not to mention the time it takes for them to put restraints on and them being pinned while a marine is pinned, which means more of a chance to kill one. The way I'm imagining the pinning is similar to the hunters pounce where you can shoot the shit out of them with no harm to the downed marine.

As an added extra, huggers are xenos strong points and guns are marine strongpoints. While the stun lasts for around 60 seconds, after that marines can still pick up their damage buffed guns and fire away.

[wyllwolf]

I would Like to see something like this implemented. Seeing as I had to deal with a marine last night that I caught walked him all the way to the hive and when he awoke and was trying to escape. It went from ten more seconds and he would be nested to maybe a 5-7 minute ordeal where the Queen, Hivelord and me were trying to do the disarm shuffle to get him to a nest. This would have made it more covenant to have either the pine or some better way to restrain them at that point.

[ZDashe]

I would +1 to pinning. I feel that a xeno should be able to pin a DOWNED host on the ground indefinitely UNLESS a host resists, and the usual timer to break free comes into play. It's like 'sitting' on the downed marine with its body weight. However, the drawback is that the xeno CANNOT MOVE from it's spot. That allows the xeno to buy time to call for its sister's aid (dig a closer tunnel, drones to make a nest nearby, or even to bring face-huggers). It would encourage team-based play by forcing a Xeno to communicate for assistance, if not it's sitting ducks.

As for restraints, i'll have to -1. Firstly, lore-wise it's a little controversial. Secondly, it takes away the hive-planning part of Xenos. Imagine restraints being implemented, and you have LESS of a reason to dig tunnels or make a forward hive. Xeno support roles would diminish in its intended purpose, and gameplay would become slightly less team-oriented. Everyone would feel comfortable hunting alone, giving people the wrong impression thinking that 1 Xeno 'MP' can capture 1 host by himself. Most importantly, it would become exploitable for Xenos to nest a captured host longer. ('Handcuff' a nested host who is trying to break free, making it even more impossible to escape)

[Gandalf]

('Handcuff' a nested host who is trying to break free, making it even more impossible to escape)

Not possible. As I said, cuffs and nests aren't compatible.

[Logi99]

Nest is basically the handcuff. Resin handcuffs are the mobile version