New Rule: Prohibit the firing of emitters onto ladders.

[Steelpoint]

I mean if emitters are going to be abused, why not just remove all emitters except the one for the SM and make it unmoveable?

But what if it breaks?

Accidents can happen and engineering may need replacement parts for the engine, or the Chief Engineer might want to implement a alternative engine design that requires the emitter to be moved.

---

Emitters have always been a controversial thing in game, and in the few times they are used admins usually deal with it. I remember the infamous event where a admin dropped a small bomb on a emitter which resulted in the entire upper level being depressurized thus severely compromising the Marine's defences.

If any nerf is to be applied the only way I can see it going forward is either to replace the engine entirely to be a design that does not require a emitter to operate, such as a nuclear engine or something akin to Goonstation. The other nerf is going along with the idea's above on making certain Aliens immune to the emitter and making the Crusher able to absorb it.

[Gentlefood]

I mean if emitters are going to be abused, why not just remove all emitters except the one for the SM and make it unmoveable?

That's an incredibly poor solution and poor reasoning. Even ignoring the possibility that something happens to the suddenly only remaining emitter. It also becomes a target for griefing. There's no rule against using emitters in defense. Its just abusing map design to fire them on ladders.

Removing the ability to use them at all is far too heavy handed an approach. That's like removing huggers because Xenos can stack them more than 2 a tile. If something can be abused it will, but punish those that abuse it, not those that merely wish to use it.

[Arachnidnexus]

That's an incredibly poor solution and poor reasoning. Even ignoring the possibility that something happens to the suddenly only remaining emitter. It also becomes a target for griefing. There's no rule against using emitters in defense. Its just abusing map design to fire them on ladders.

Removing the ability to use them at all is far too heavy handed an approach. That's like removing huggers because Xenos can stack them more than 2 a tile. If something can be abused it will, but punish those that abuse it, not those that merely wish to use it.

How does the emitter become more of a target for griefing than it already is considering it's pointed at the SM? Emitters also basically depend on abusing map design to be effective considering they have a 5 tile range. Recently I've seen emitters mostly used in hangar defenses, and you cannot argue that's not abusing map design to fire them on some of the only exits the shuttle has.

I don't think removing functionality when the vast majority of times something is misused is too heavy handed. Remember when shoulder holsters could hold SADARs and sniper rifles? Why did that ability get removed? Didn't some people ostensibly use them for actual revolvers?

What about when emitters didn't have a nerfed range? Why punish those that used it "properly"? How about when SADARs were one-handed? What about when you could "throw" your M41 offhand to turn a normal M41 into a single hand rifle? What about when tricord didn't have an OD limit? When enough people abuse something it's often times more reasonable and less wasteful of staff time to prevent them from being able to abuse it rather than deal with each case on an individual basis.

[Gentlefood]

How does the emitter become more of a target for griefing than it already is considering it's pointed at the SM? Emitters also basically depend on abusing map design to be effective considering they have a 5 tile range. Recently I've seen emitters mostly used in hangar defenses, and you cannot argue that's not abusing map design to fire them on some of the only exits the shuttle has.

I don't think removing functionality when the vast majority of times something is misused is too heavy handed. Remember when shoulder holsters could hold SADARs and sniper rifles? Why did that ability get removed? Didn't some people ostensibly use them for actual revolvers?

What about when emitters didn't have a nerfed range? Why punish those that used it "properly"? How about when SADARs were one-handed? What about when you could "throw" your M41 offhand to turn a normal M41 into a single hand rifle? What about when tricord didn't have an OD limit? When enough people abuse something it's often times more reasonable and less wasteful of staff time to prevent them from being able to abuse it rather than deal with each case on an individual basis.

Single emitter critical to the operation of the SM. Destroy or disable this emitter in a way it cannot be recovered without admin intervention. Completely fuck over the marine team. A single C4 would suffice. Squad Engineers have access both C4 and the suddendly extremely critical emitter.

The suggestion is not that "Emitters are too powerful" the suggestion is "Do not allow this map exploit to be continued via rule change/update." If you want to add any of these suggestions make your own suggestion, this is not the thread for it.

Additionally, the shoulder holster holding the SADAR and Sniper was deemed a bug and not an intended interaction. Hence it was removed. Comparing this to bugs is improper as it is not a bug, but a mapping exploit.

[Arachnidnexus]

Turn on emitter. It keeps firing and blows up the SM. This is also a situation where admin intervention would be required. It also completely fucks over the marine team. MTs have access to emitters and the SM. So do Squad Engineers. If the SM gets ejected it often times also requires admin intervention considering how tricky it is to get a new core into the chamber. I also don't think it'd be impossible to make the emitter unable to be destroyed by C4 (like ... oh, I dunno, the planetside shuttle control console?).

Shoulder holsters was indeed a bug but it was also an exploit. It was only coded out after people started abusing it and it became popular to exploit it. Sound familiar? Emitters have been nerfed multiple times because of how marines have exploited them, in case you didn't know (range, power usage, ability to be ordered from cargo). I think the rule to disallow emitters directly on ladders is a good idea, but in my opinion it's just going to lead to new "meta" locations to put emitters which then lead to this discussion all over again about how it's now an exploit to put an emitter at X location.

[Davidchan]

First,cargo techs dont have emitters,second,they dont know engineering last i checked,so dont know what you are on about
Also +1,or atleast a risk to using them.
Huggers on ladders are also a bit dickish,but atleast they are removed easily via a sacrifice.

So exactly what are Cargo techs expected to do to defend themselves, given that the cargo bay is the closest and easiest ladder to access for boarding Xenos.

[coroneljones]

So exactly what are Cargo techs expected to do to defend themselves, given that the cargo bay is the closest and easiest ladder to access for boarding Xenos.

Once again,why are cargo tech relevant to emitters? They cant even set them up.

[Fourty2]

I'll give the "Aliens below t3 are too short for emitter shots to hit them" or just making a rule that they can't be used at ladders +1. Anywhere else, there is a way around. It may take a while to melt through walls, but you can eventually get there most of the time.

[forwardslashN]

Once again,why are cargo tech relevant to emitters? They cant even set them up.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about engineering setting up an emitter there because cargo techs can't actually protect cargo. Cargo is usually the first place I check as a xeno because of proximity and because it's seldom defended.

[Davidchan]

Once again,why are cargo tech relevant to emitters? They cant even set them up.

Who set them up is irrelevant, as you are trying to blanket ban their use.

This reeks strongly of 'i ded plz nerf' because Xenos charged wrecklessly into an area thats usually undefended and got killed. And even though you bring up huggers on ladders, you've yet to make an equal suggestion limiting aliens from doing that even though it's possible to wedge up to 8 huggers around a ladder without breaking any current rules.

[Derpislav]

So exactly what are Cargo techs expected to do to defend themselves, given that the cargo bay is the closest and easiest ladder to access for boarding Xenos.

They're not. They're civilians. They're expected to run around flailing arms and hide behind marines.

Removing all emitters but the SM one wouldn't make it more prone to griefing - the engine can be still started by oxygen injection or throwing something/someone at it.

[WyattH]

They're not. They're civilians. They're expected to run around flailing arms and hide behind marines.

*facepalm*

It's sad when our admins/mods don't know our own game.

How can you enforce rules well when you don't know such basic RP stuff?

wiki/Rank

[Steelpoint]

Amusingly Cargo Tech's technically outrank most actual Marines and are considered ABOVE them in the chain of succession.

[Davidchan]

_{don't even get me started on that}

[MadSnailDisease]

They're not. They're civilians. They're expected to run around flailing arms and hide behind marines.

Removing all emitters but the SM one wouldn't make it more prone to griefing - the engine can be still started by oxygen injection or throwing something/someone at it.

Can confirm. While oxygen injection works fine, you need to know what you are doing. The first time I did it and fucked up everything and everyone died. The second time I went into the code to check burn rates and heat generated to calculate an ideal oxygen kickstart. I think it's safe to say very few people on the server at any given time will have any idea as to setting up an oxygen kickstart. That being said, anything you throw or shoot at the SM will increase its energy. Literally just shoot the thing until you have power. (Please don't actually)

[Pilcrow]

OP

If they're such a problem, it could be possible to make an emitter check whether they're in line of a ladder on construction, although depending how that's handled it might be either more complicated than it's worth or easily gamed.
Another solution is to have emitter beams ignore creatures on ladders (either by doing some complicated stuff, or just checking whether the mob it's hitting has a ladder in its loc).

Alternatively, give the SM emitter the same protections as stuff like the shuttle console, and remove all others - but personally I don't like that idea, it's hacky and boring.

Less new rules and less work for the admins on a round-by-round basis is preferable.

[Reznoriam]

There are a couple of things that make me wonder here. First is that if admins are intervening and removing emitters that implies that they are breaking rules, but there's no rule as far as I am aware against creative engineering defenses.

That being said, if there is concern specifically about emitters and emitters only rather than introducing a rule that might have other unintended consequences since different people and admins might interpret that rule differently a simpler solution would be to simply make emitters turn off after a certain number of shots. The emitter currently delays firing after every four shots, it wouldn't be that much harder to make it switch off instead of pause I would think and that would solve the problem. An emitter that doesn't run forever independently isn't going to be effective as a permanent ladder trap unless someone is standing there next to it, and if that's the case I don't think it's really unfair since it's a manned defense?

[MadSnailDisease]

Why would anyone leave an emitter on? All our need is one person standing near it to operate it with insulated gloves, turning it on whenever someone goes down the ladder. Anyway, those things are dangerous, and can melt walls in a few shots, normally.

[Davidchan]

It would be better to code in actual stair wells and cargo lifts/elevators than to arbitrarily deny one side using tactics and allow the otherside to freely exploit similar tactics against troops traversing Z-levels.

[Steelpoint]

You can already have proper stairs, its a combination of good mapping and using a, I think, teleport command to essentially mean if you walk into a tile you'll instantly teleport to the next z-level.

[Sanchez13]

You can already have proper stairs, its a combination of good mapping and using a, I think, teleport command to essentially mean if you walk into a tile you'll instantly teleport to the next z-level.

It's perfectly possible. I've seen it on The Last Conflict/REOnline 2 where if you move your character onto the stairs, it instantly moves you between Z-levels. If it were to be implemented, I would fully condone it due to it encouraging both sides to create choke points against each other at such areas, making Sulaco defence/assault both more engaging and viable. It's just my two cents, anyway.

[Steelpoint]

Well the good thing about having some stairs is that unlike the ladders you can have a slightly better idea of what your running into, to a extent.

[Edgelord]

+1, maybe code it so when you try to use emitters outside of engineering it says "The emitter's safety lock prohibits you from firing it outside of engineering!" or something to the same effect.

[Kerek]

-1, emitters have saved marines a few times, and besides after comms are cut, like they are always rushed, there is seldom someone can do about watching both fronts and knowing that its not safe, besides a runner could leap beside the emitter and get out of harms way and destroy it if theyre quick enough. And lets not forget about the long, occasional point in time where the emitter takes a good 10 seconds before firing.

[Eenkogneeto]

I can honestly say I have never felt emitters needed removed as an alien, At most one ladder will be blocked if you dont fuck around, At most two if they use all their resources, And more often than not you can just corrosive acid rest wait rest acid rest until theres nothing blocking you and then melt the emitter.
Personally I use sentrys in the same killing hall setup, with 3-4 tables and barricades preventing them from getting away.