A rule restricting Marines from carrying two rifles.

[Grypho]

I feel that we have enough rules already for a regular player to remember all of them. If this gets accepted, I really hope you do it by editing the game mechanics. Prevent marines from carrying two rifles with them by coding it in. If we add rules for every single case just because "it is not realistic", in 2d space man game, we will end up in situation where bans are given left and right to new players who do not remember all the rules. I am not saying I support this, but this is my idea of implementation if it gets accepted. Or if any other rule adding suggestion gets. Adding roleplay rules is always much more tricky than adding basic anti-griefing rules, and the border is much more unclear in roleplay rules.

[Sargeantmuffinman]

I will say neutral to this as it can hammper marine effectiveness AND shift the battle into the xenos favour as the marines have lost their backup assault rifle (I know,bring a shotgun,SMG or the backup pistol).

But it would stop the meta or powergameyness of bring two guns.

I don't anymore due to the mag strap.

[Edgelord]

It'd be cool if marines each had a token good for one gun and one sidearm where the RO could replace lost tokens, but I know that probably wouldn't work.

I hate marines who fill their backpacks and belts with guns because imo it's powergaming, but the truth of it is it's hard to fight without being overly oppressive.

[monkeysfist101]

The issue here is not carrying multiple weapons. There's nothing wrong with packing a shotgun, SMG, pistol, and M41 other than ammo variety. The issue here is carrying two identical weapons. Even in games like Wolfenstein that lets you carry more firepower than the combined might of the UN, unless you're dual wielding, you can only carry one of each firearm. Having more than one is redundant and powergamey.

[Sikillgard]

I would say +1, but this would be singling out an established meta in comparison to a wide range of other, more serious meta. I understand the RP reasons, and it does make sense. But this does ultimately mean that marines have now yet another handicap, and I'm not sure how well they'll fare ingame, particularly in extended firefights like assault and defense.

To me this isn't too big a deal, so neutral.

[Telegnats]

The issue here is carrying two identical weapons.

So what if I carry an m4a1 that has a different handle? Are they still the same gun? What if one has a slightly longer barrel, or there's a scope on it? If carrying two identical things around doesn't make sense, why do xenos carry two huggers? Does it matter if I drag the rifle around on the ground with me? I'm not carrying it then, is that okay?

Since this is meta, why don't we force aliens to stick around when an orbital beacon is thrown or a grenade tossed? Why don't we force the marines to only shoot until the xenos prove hostile? What about marines and xenos knowing exactly where everything on the map is? Can survivors know literally everything about xenomorphs? How can a military owned and operated vehicle be perfectly operated by some alien queen thing that doesn't even know what electricity is?

At what point would this become some arbitrary fucking rule to shove someone's perception of 'metagaming' down everyone else's throat?

[Pilcrow]

So what if I carry an m4a1 that has a different handle? Are they still the same gun? What if one has a slightly longer barrel, or there's a scope on it? If carrying two identical things around doesn't make sense, why do xenos carry two huggers? Does it matter if I drag the rifle around on the ground with me? I'm not carrying it then, is that okay?

Since this is meta, why don't we force aliens to stick around when an orbital beacon is thrown or a grenade tossed? Why don't we force the marines to only shoot until the xenos prove hostile? What about marines and xenos knowing exactly where everything on the map is? Can survivors know literally everything about xenomorphs? How can a military owned and operated vehicle be perfectly operated by some alien queen thing that doesn't even know what electricity is?

At what point would this become some arbitrary fucking rule to shove someone's perception of 'metagaming' down everyone else's throat?

This. We should really, really stop adding rules just to patch some 'metagaming' that somebody doesn't like, despite having virtually no effect.
All this will do is either be ignored outright, or create unnecessary overhead for the admins, and in addition if we want to be looking at anything it ought to be aliens, where the current meta right now is to just facehug and murder every marine in your path and ignore infestation.
Chances are we won't see any proposed rules against alien metagaming, either.

[Bath Salts Addict]

This. We should really, really stop adding rules just to patch some 'metagaming' that somebody doesn't like, despite having virtually no effect.
All this will do is either be ignored outright, or create unnecessary overhead for the admins, and in addition if we want to be looking at anything it ought to be aliens, where the current meta right now is to just facehug and murder every marine in your path and ignore infestation.
Chances are we won't see any proposed rules against alien metagaming, either.

If it doesn't have an effect, then there should be no problem with it being implemented. Having two rifles literally poses no threat to the Xenos, but it's still metagaming, just like how putting huggers in Nexus before Marines deploy won't wipe an entire team out but still is metagaming. We either have magnetic harnesses soon or have them right now, meaning that the need to carry two rifles is even more borderline rulebreaking.

The main argument here is that "but what'll I use when I'm breaking down resin walls?" or "what'll I do when some Hunter manages to outplay me and tackle me down?". I'm sorry to say, but if you're honestly planning for that contingency, then you're metagaming, pure and simple. Here's the metagaming rule, word for word, copy-pasted out of the rules: No Metagaming:- Acting upon knowledge your character does not have.

The examples listed are just that: examples. There's more to metagaming than what's just listed. The whole point not metagaming is to go down not expecting contact with hostile alien lifeforms. That's the basis of early-midgame gameplay. If that isn't drilled into your head by now, then you need to play some more.

And honestly, you can't as a respectable human being say with a sane mind that "well, if we gotta do this, then they have to do this!" That's not how real life works, kiddo. These things go by a case-by-case basis. One scenario does not set the standard for future rules and such set in place. For all the salt revolving around Xenos moving away from beacons and grenades, I have yet to see staff actually punish any for it. That's because you can't, as a sane person, expect someone to actually let their round get thrown away and stand in a grenade/beacon. On the other hand, removing second M41As from Marine arsenals and the loadout meta does not hinder the round of Xenos or Marines at all.

[monkeysfist101]

Sorry for the wall of text. But, hey, I get to point out the fallacies used here.

So what if I carry an m4a1 that has a different handle? Are they still the same gun? What if one has a slightly longer barrel, or there's a scope on it?

False Equivalence
Of course they're still the same type of gun. The player will always use the one with the best (the only) attachments.

If carrying two identical things around doesn't make sense, why do xenos carry two huggers?

False Equivalence
Facehuggers are ammunition. The xenomorph is the weapon. What you're asking is the same as saying "you have two bullets for your rifle, why not one?" It's not what I'm saying at all.

Does it matter if I drag the rifle around on the ground with me? I'm not carrying it then, is that okay?

Not a fallacy, just absurd.
No. Dragging it behind you is carrying it. Explain to me, please how you expect dragging something without it being connected to you in some capacity is possible?

Since this is meta, why don't we force aliens to stick around when an orbital beacon is thrown or a grenade tossed?

Red Herring
That's not relevant to the topic.

Why don't we force the marines to only shoot until the xenos prove hostile?

Red Herring
That's not relevant to the topic.

What about marines and xenos knowing exactly where everything on the map is?

Red Herring
That's not relevant to the topic.

Can survivors know literally everything about xenomorphs?

Red Herring
That's not relevant to the topic.

How can a military owned and operated vehicle be perfectly operated by some alien queen thing that doesn't even know what electricity is?

Red Herring
That's not relevant to the topic.

At what point would this become some arbitrary fucking rule to shove someone's perception of 'metagaming' down everyone else's throat?

Appeal to the Stone
I would assume however long ago rule 8 was implemented.


EDIT: formatting

[Disco Dalek]

I would like to point one thing out. Due to the way the game works, you always drop what you're holding when you're knocked down. In reality, would every person who was tackled instantly release their grasp on their only hope for survival and be completely unable to retrieve it while on the ground?

[monkeysfist101]

I would like to point one thing out. Due to the way the game works, you always drop what you're holding when you're knocked down. In reality, would every person who was tackled instantly release their grasp on their only hope for survival and be completely unable to retrieve it while on the ground?

Probably not everybody, but I would gander about 95% of people getting broadsided by walking nightmares would lose their grip. If you're unable to stand to grab the rifle, I doubt you'd be in any situation to fight even if you could get to it.

[Pilcrow]

If it doesn't have an effect, then there should be no problem with it being implemented. Having two rifles literally poses no threat to the Xenos, but it's still metagaming, just like how putting huggers in Nexus before Marines deploy won't wipe an entire team out but still is metagaming. We either have magnetic harnesses soon or have them right now, meaning that the need to carry two rifles is even more borderline rulebreaking.

The main argument here is that "but what'll I use when I'm breaking down resin walls?" or "what'll I do when some Hunter manages to outplay me and tackle me down?". I'm sorry to say, but if you're honestly planning for that contingency, then you're metagaming, pure and simple. Here's the metagaming rule, word for word, copy-pasted out of the rules: No Metagaming:- Acting upon knowledge your character does not have.

The examples listed are just that: examples. There's more to metagaming than what's just listed. The whole point not metagaming is to go down not expecting contact with hostile alien lifeforms. That's the basis of early-midgame gameplay. If that isn't drilled into your head by now, then you need to play some more.

And honestly, you can't as a respectable human being say with a sane mind that "well, if we gotta do this, then they have to do this!" That's not how real life works, kiddo. These things go by a case-by-case basis. One scenario does not set the standard for future rules and such set in place. For all the salt revolving around Xenos moving away from beacons and grenades, I have yet to see staff actually punish any for it. That's because you can't, as a sane person, expect someone to actually let their round get thrown away and stand in a grenade/beacon. On the other hand, removing second M41As from Marine arsenals and the loadout meta does not hinder the round of Xenos or Marines at all.

>kiddo
argument disregarded

Again, we should stop making up rules for literally every single thing that tickles your autism, because it will either create unneccessary work for admins or be completely pointless.
Trying to strawman by coming up with ridiculous situations doesn't help, and if you want to get super rule lawyery about it then I'm sure any shmuck can come up with some good reasons to drag an extra gat along in a few minutes of thought - and who knows, maybe somebody with actual military knowledge will slap one of the sides' shit with experience? Somebody's already mentioned that an extra assault rifle isn't that big of a deal weight-wise, after all.

Otherwise, like I said before - try focusing on things that actually matter to the game instead of making fractal rules.
It's also curious that you support alien metagaming with 'but it ruins their round if they're not allowed to dodge the explosions!' despite this pretty much being the case for the marines when their beacons amount to fuck and all because they're horribly obvious and the ayy lmaos are entirely allowed to take a few steps back and laugh it off.
To be honest, those beacons really shouldn't make a sound until under a second before splash. Might make aliens too salty though, and we don't want that.

False Equivalence
Facehuggers are ammunition. The xenomorph is the weapon. What you're asking is the same as saying "you have two bullets for your rifle, why not one?" It's not what I'm saying at all.

So you shouldn't be allowed to bring more than two xenomorphs of the same class?
Seriously though, you're getting into insane semantics - the point is that facehuggers are vastly more powerful than an extra rifle.

Red Herring
That's not relevant to the topic.
Red Herring
That's not relevant to the topic.

It is, however, relevant to aliens bitching whenever marines do anything vaguely intelligent.

Red Herring
That's not relevant to the topic.
Red Herring
That's not relevant to the topic.
Red Herring
That's not relevant to the topic.

You're coming towards us with the 'metagaming' angle and don't expect us to throw that shit back in your face?

Appeal to the Stone
I would assume however long ago rule 8 was implemented.

There's such a thing as the 'fallacy fallacy' - since you're discounting arguments solely because you think they fit into a fallacy, that's pretty applicable here.
Wait a second, I forgot the passive-aggressive red text. 'Fallacy' Fallacy

Whatever. That poster has a fairly relevant point anyway because it looks like whatever people have a mild dislike of is getting branded 'metagaming' and 'powergaming' so that they can get an edge over it no matter how absurd enforcing these rules would be, this suggestion included. This is why ayys metagaming is relevant - nobody's done anything about it and yet you still expect us to conform to a steadily expanding set of specific clauses and subclauses that prevent us from using basic game mechanics no matter how well somebody justifies it.
It's /bay/-tier, and it's dumb.

If you want to limit it, do something codewise instead of fucking about with rules even further.

[Telegnats]

Okay, can we please have another reason for enforcing this rule besides metagaming? It's subjective, purely based on perception of how the game world should work and operate. Your perception, not ours. It should in no way be a basis for a suggestion, at most the metagaming defense should be used as an addon to an already clearly defined reason to implement something.

I'm sorry monkeyfist, but you somehow missed the entire point of that paragraph. Read it again.

[monkeysfist101]

So you shouldn't be allowed to bring more than two xenomorphs of the same class?
Seriously though, you're getting into insane semantics - the point is that facehuggers are vastly more powerful than an extra rifle.

Apples to Oranges. Having only one of each class is like saying there can be only one M41 on the entire team. Besides, I'm only arguing against having more than one of the same weapon. I personally think that the carrier should be the only class that can handle and throw facehuggers outside of the hive.

It is, however, relevant to aliens bitching whenever marines do anything vaguely intelligent.

That's great and all, but that doesn't mean it belongs here.

You're coming towards us with the 'metagaming' angle and don't expect us to throw that shit back in your face?

I'm fine with debating the other points (I even agree with a good number of them.) but this is not the place. Feel free to make suggestion threads for those.

There's such a thing as the 'fallacy fallacy' - since you're discounting arguments solely because you think they fit into a fallacy, that's pretty applicable here.
Wait a second, I forgot the passive-aggressive red text. 'Fallacy' Fallacy

Whatever. That poster has a fairly relevant point anyway because it looks like whatever people have a mild dislike of is getting branded 'metagaming' and 'powergaming' so that they can get an edge over it no matter how absurd enforcing these rules would be, this suggestion included. This is why ayys metagaming is relevant - nobody's done anything about it and yet you still expect us to conform to a steadily expanding set of specific clauses and subclauses that prevent us from using basic game mechanics no matter how well somebody justifies it.
It's /bay/-tier, and it's dumb.

If you want to limit it, do something codewise instead of fucking about with rules even further.

Right there. That part in red. The "steadily expanding set of specific clauses and subclauses" 90% of our behavior rules say to act like a sane person (Don't go into combat in your armor, don't kill people, etc...) and the rest are to make up for stuff that we've yet to implement mechanics. (I know, screw us for asking players to not exploit and abuse mechanics.)

[MrGabol100]

-1, though I understand what you are trying to say, it's impossible to enforce, and few people do it.

[Pilcrow]

Apples to Oranges. Having only one of each class is like saying there can be only one M41 on the entire team. Besides, I'm only arguing against having more than one of the same weapon. I personally think that the carrier should be the only class that can handle and throw facehuggers outside of the hive.

You're the one calling the aliens the weapon. Make up your damn mind.

Right there. That part in red. The "steadily expanding set of specific clauses and subclauses" 90% of our behavior rules say to act like a sane person (Don't go into combat in your armor, don't kill people, etc...) and the rest are to make up for stuff that we've yet to implement mechanics. (I know, screw us for asking players to not exploit and abuse mechanics.)

The 'sane person' rules are fine (although entirely fucking redundant - pyjama party marines have always been dealt with pretty niftily IC, for one), but patching exploits (or at least, what you consider exploits - I'm not sure how carrying two guns is one, after all) purely with rules is the height of laziness.
How many devs do you have? It's seriously not hard to find a solution to most of the shit that comes up here, and I'm honestly surprised that you're still using rules to bandaid shit.
I'd fucking storm in and fix at least half this shit myself if I weren't already working on another codebase, patching up other devs' dumb mistakes. Fucking invisible mecha.

[monkeysfist101]

You're the one calling the aliens the weapon. Make up your damn mind.

Nothing I've said has contradicted itself. The alien is the weapon and the huggers are ammo. Having multiple aliens on a team is fine. Having multiple riflemen on the team is also fine. Having multiple bullets per riflemen is fine as well. Having multiple rifles per rifleman is not fine.

How many devs do you have? It's seriously not hard to find a solution to most of the shit that comes up here, and I'm honestly surprised that you're still using rules to bandaid shit.
I'd fucking storm in and fix at least half this shit myself if I weren't already working on another codebase, patching up other devs' dumb mistakes. Fucking invisible mecha.

We have ONE coder. She works very hard only for people to bitch about there not being enough code.

[Telegnats]

Besides the arbitrary use of 'metagaming' and 'powergaming', what's wrong with carrying two rifles? Realism, or what?

[Azmodan412]

Salt levels of this thread is rising. Let me put in my two cents.

Cent #1: Any SANE person would have one rifle, attach the hell out of it and be okay. With the inclusion of magnetic harnesses, dropping your rifle is absolutely nonexistant, unless you didn't get a magnetic harness. Get a pistol or revolver.

Cent #2: Xenomorphs, in my view, are biologically (and genetically) developed killing machines, the PERFECT hunter. Each xenomorphic body is a weapon in-of itself. Razor sharp tail, flensing claws that can slash plasteel to nothingness, molecular acid for blood? The only things they lack are free will and an efficient organ system. They are pretty much giant acid-blooded, human-killing ants in terms of internal/external composition, external being a chitinous form.

Addendum: Sane meaning not this Lemme carry 3 rifles, 4 pistols and three grenades because I am a superhuman being and I can lift all that weight and still fight easily. Sane in this context being: Okay, one rifle, one sidearm, enough ammunition so if I run into a firefight, I can get resupplied quickly without being out of it for too long. One or two grenades for area denial and flushing corners...

[Telegnats]

How the fuck is carrying 2 rifles grounds for calling someone insane? Are we seriously at the point that deviating from our perception is insane?

[Pilcrow]

Nothing I've said has contradicted itself. The alien is the weapon and the huggers are ammo. Having multiple aliens on a team is fine. Having multiple riflemen on the team is also fine. Having multiple bullets per riflemen is fine as well. Having multiple rifles per rifleman is not fine.
We have ONE coder. She works very hard only for people to bitch about there not being enough code.

Fuck is up with the storm of 'devs' fucking about, then? Do you seriously mean to say that they all - including yourself - work exclusively on sprites and sound? That explains a lot, actually.
And no, before you even mention them, a 'mapper' is not something anyone should be called a 'dev' for - mapping itself is basic, but requires enough working knowledge of how the game or code works that you may as well be a coder (and being able to work on both the code and the map really fucking useful). Anyone who exclusively calls themselves a 'mapper' is usually the kind of fuckler responsible for shit like 'easter egg' syndicate items being hidden in maint on other stations.

Salt levels of this thread is rising. Let me put in my two cents.

Cent #1: Any SANE person would have one rifle, attach the hell out of it and be okay. With the inclusion of magnetic harnesses, dropping your rifle is absolutely nonexistant, unless you didn't get a magnetic harness. Get a pistol or revolver.

Cent #2: Xenomorphs, in my view, are biologically (and genetically) developed killing machines, the PERFECT hunter. Each xenomorphic body is a weapon in-of itself. Razor sharp tail, flensing claws that can slash plasteel to nothingness, molecular acid for blood? The only things they lack are free will and an efficient organ system. They are pretty much giant acid-blooded, human-killing ants in terms of internal/external composition, external being a chitinous form.

Addendum: Sane meaning not this Lemme carry 3 rifles, 4 pistols and three grenades because I am a superhuman being and I can lift all that weight and still fight easily. Sane in this context being: Okay, one rifle, one sidearm, enough ammunition so if I run into a firefight, I can get resupplied quickly without being out of it for too long. One or two grenades for area denial and flushing corners...

Nobody's advocating for dragging a locker full of guns around, stop strawmanning. Nobody actually sane gives a fuck about somebody carrying just two, because it's such a non-issue that trying to legislate against it is fucking ridiculous.
I'm not even going to go into how including 'three grenades' is contributing towards being a fucking superhuman. It isn't like people actually carry multiple grenades in real life or anything, those things totally aren't useful enough to carry more than one, no sir.
I'd say it's surprising that even a single nade isn't standard for all marines, but then again I'm not sure your average standard marine player can handle the responsibility - so I guess there's that, at least.

Also, I don't know how jacking off over xenomorphs is supposed to help your argument, but it certainly displays a heavy bias.
They've got the 'ninja' problem wherein the more of them there are, the faster they get slaughtered - see all 'alien' movies after the first, for instance.

[Azmodan412]

Logically, for someone on an investigation mission, someone would carry one, AT MOST two grenades in case something happened.

[Telegnats]

Explain further. Why?

[monkeysfist101]

Fuck is up with the storm of 'devs' fucking about, then? Do you seriously mean to say that they all - including yourself - work exclusively on sprites and sound? That explains a lot, actually.
And no, before you even mention them, a 'mapper' is not something anyone should be called a 'dev' for - mapping itself is basic, but requires enough working knowledge of how the game or code works that you may as well be a coder (and being able to work on both the code and the map really fucking useful). Anyone who exclusively calls themselves a 'mapper' is usually the kind of fuckler responsible for shit like 'easter egg' syndicate items being hidden in maint on other stations.

Well, I'm a spriter, so I'd hope that I'd be working on sprites rather than dorking with the code. Aside from that, until a month and a half ago, we had ONE spriter, ONE mapper (which is in fact a dev position,) and ONE coder. We're not "fucking about," we're not "fuckler(s)," and frankly you have no business coming on the forums and insulting my colleagues.

[Tristan63]

1- Too much restriction is never a good idea, because eventually the playerbase would be Permabanned or just go elsewhere because their friends dissapiered