clarfication on what marines would know to do in rules and rp.

[Siserith Vassada]

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary):recently there seems to be an issue with what diffrent admins belive a marine would know what to do, according to one admin a marine would not know how to bandage himself, use a chem labeled with what it does or how to build a wall of metal as a barricade in a combat situation, or how to make a grenade. and according to other admins these common sense things are allowed.

Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole):prevent contradicting issues resulting in admin interventon

Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc):basically clarify what a marine would do, got really annoyed from being told not to do some things that anyone would be able to understand or know how to do.

Implementation (Optional, if you have an idea how to implement it):clarify the rules



Edit: evolved into multiple feature suggestions viewtopic.php?p=57245#p57245

[WyattH]

I would actually like to see this clarified within the RP guidelines and then just refer to the RP guidelines for such things. It's much easier to have a few sentences with explanations and reasonings within the RP guidelines than it is within our rules list which is more of a bullet point format.

[Stivan34]

GG, You do NOT force marines to not heal themselves, No medics and the marines die, So nah -1

[LordLoko]

Why the fuck a marine wouldn't know how to bandage himself, it's fucking first aid. In ANY risky job you would be trained for it.

[Siserith Vassada]

just an example... calm down...

[MrGabol100]

-1 There's no need for clarification, there's that ground of common sense, putting a clarification would only restrict your actions. No admin bwoinks for using an advanced medkit.

[Davidchan]

Trained military personnel not knowing how to apply basic first aid... you do realize that it's standard US Military training right now how to apply a tourniquet to yourself? With one hand, no less. CPR, Combat Gauze, hell even CBRN training shows proper use of autoinjectors, when and how. yes autoinjectors exist in real life and during the Gulf War Valium was used as an anti-chemical agent. They stopped using it for obvious reasons.

Back to topic, the amount of rules restricting marines is mind numbing and not even remotely realistic. Just stop the marines from meta-gaming and griefing, if you're gonna say marines can't use first aid kits on themselves, xenos definitely should not be slashing APCs, let alone targeting specific ones (like medbay and tcomms)

[Grypho]

Alright, military personnel are often trained basic medical skills, at least I was when I was serving the army as a conscript. Normal marines should be able to perform CPR and bandage bleeding. What normal marines might not do right, is injecting with a syringe. That is where medics come in, they know how to evacuate the marine correctly, they know which chemicals to inject... etc. I recommend everyone else to take civilian first aid courses who do not have basic first aid skills, knowing how to bandage and stop bleeding should be common knowledge in real life. It is not hard at all and you might end up saving someone´s life. So I am not going to support this idea, I am sorry.

[apophis775]

I'll clarify this a bit more again, but if you search, I already clarified this somewhere when people bitched last time:

Medical levels:

ANYONE: Put a bandage or splint on someone. Use quick-clot
Medics/Doctors: Use auto-injectors, defibs, labeled chemicals
Doctors: Surgery, make more chemicals, use sleepers

[Davidchan]

I'll clarify this a bit more again, but if you search, I already clarified this somewhere when people bitched last time:

Medical levels:

ANYONE: Put a bandage or splint on someone. Use quick-clot
Medics/Doctors: Use auto-injectors, defibs, labeled chemicals
Doctors: Surgery, make more chemicals, use sleepers

Why restrict auto-injectors? It's literally the first thing modern day troops learn during basic training. An Epipen is literally an autoinjector, after all. Are we saying that 5-10 year old children are better trained than our marines?

Even defibs are a pretty hard sell to do since AEDs have existed since the 90s and high school students literally learn how to use them. Our Defibs are DEFINITELY AEDs since they check for a heartbeat and refuse to shock stable lifeforms. I know in my school it was actually required to pass the health section of P.E., which in turn was required to graduate. I'm not saying it's a good idea for a grutn Marine to defib a fallen comrade, since they probably won't have the gear to stabilize them.

[forwardslashN]

Auto injector are also available in every NanoMed.

[apophis775]

Why restrict auto-injectors? It's literally the first thing modern day troops learn during basic training. An Epipen is literally an autoinjector, after all. Are we saying that 5-10 year old children are better trained than our marines?

Even defibs are a pretty hard sell to do since AEDs have existed since the 90s and high school students literally learn how to use them. Our Defibs are DEFINITELY AEDs since they check for a heartbeat and refuse to shock stable lifeforms. I know in my school it was actually required to pass the health section of P.E., which in turn was required to graduate. I'm not saying it's a good idea for a grutn Marine to defib a fallen comrade, since they probably won't have the gear to stabilize them.

LOL @ People always trying to tell me "It's the first thing modern day troops learn" with so many things, without realizing that I spent several years in the Military, including a CLS certification.

1. AEDs still require TRAINING, and should NEVER be operated by someone who doesn't know how to properly operate it. If you want to go into specifics, our AEDs BARELY function like real ones, as, an ACTUAL AED, will not administer a shock if it's connected to a person without a beating heart (which, you still have when your in V-FIB). The reason being, it needs to analyze the heartbeats frequency, shape, slope, amplitude and rate before it determines if a shock is even necessary or useful. Not to mention, our AEDs are MUCH more advanced and "magical" since IRL, an AED would do jack shit against say, bullet-wounds, which ours are useful against.

2. Remember that auto injectors aren't just Epinephrine, but Bicardine, dex+, and a whole HOST of chemicals that any marine SHOULD be like "WUT DO" if they looked at (your average medic won't know that Dexalin heals Oxygen damage). They aren't CLS certified or medics, they are basic grunts. Bandages is probably the extent of their medical knowledge, as well as quick-clot. Spoilers: That's roughly the same level of medical training troops get IRL (CLS is optional). Typically, you get the "bandage" training, Quick-clot training, and the Neurotoxin Autoinjector training (which, they don't teach you what's in them unless your a medic, just "Use Injector 1, then 2, then 3").

[Davidchan]

LOL @ People always trying to tell me "It's the first thing modern day troops learn" with so many things, without realizing that I spent several years in the Military, including a CLS certification.

And I have a tour in Iraq. Whats your point?

1. AEDs still require TRAINING, and should NEVER be operated by someone who doesn't know how to properly operate it. If you want to go into specifics, our AEDs BARELY function like real ones, as, an ACTUAL AED, will not administer a shock if it's connected to a person without a beating heart (which, you still have when your in V-FIB). The reason being, it needs to analyze the heartbeats frequency, shape, slope, amplitude and rate before it determines if a shock is even necessary or useful. Not to mention, our AEDs are MUCH more advanced and "magical" since IRL, an AED would do jack shit against say, bullet-wounds, which ours are useful against.

There isn't much difference, and the training is still minimal and something that works. As any reason for a Defib to be used, Defibs don't heal or do anything magical, they just jolt the heart and try to establish a rhythm, in SS13 terms it just means removing oxyloss until the subject is at -95HP if possible. There is no other training required especially with a AED.

2. Remember that auto injectors aren't just Epinephrine, but Bicardine, dex+, and a whole HOST of chemicals that any marine SHOULD be like "WUT DO" if they looked at (your average medic won't know that Dexalin heals Oxygen damage). They aren't CLS certified or medics, they are basic grunts. Bandages is probably the extent of their medical knowledge, as well as quick-clot. Spoilers: That's roughly the same level of medical training troops get IRL (CLS is optional). Typically, you get the "bandage" training, Quick-clot training, and the Neurotoxin Autoinjector training (which, they don't teach you what's in them unless your a medic, just "Use Injector 1, then 2, then 3").

And that's all that's relevant. Marines don't need to know what's in anything, CLS training you had should underscore this. It's the military, they make fool proof and train people what equipment to use, if it's not color coded it's going to have step by step instructions on and it'll be in the field manual. Identifying visual symptoms and applying first aid as needed, whether its applying combat gauze to a bullet wound, splinting a broken limb and how to apply a tourniquet. If the autoinjectors are available for use, you can be damn sure that the Corp would drill it into the grunts heads on if and when they should use them.

In short, you're missing the entire point of Auto-injectors if you intend to forbid them from general use. By design, autoinjectors are easy to use and are intended for self-administration by patients, or administration by untrained personnel.

[Pythonjet32]

Welp, this escalated quickly, eh?
Anyway, I think a clarification regarding the things that marines would know to do would be a helpful thing for newcomers.
But, I also don't like the restrictions that it would give. Neutral.

[Jeser]

Actually, some servers of SS13, has special page on Wiki called "KNOWLEDGE", where each role has it's own paragraph desscribing what they know/doesn't know, what they can use/can't use, any specific RP notes and so on. For example:

Standard Marine:

• Combat. Standards can use: M41A, SMG (PMC's too), shotgun, pistol, grenade launcher, VP-70/78, Magnum, knife, throwing knife, grenades, flamethrowers. They can't use: SADAR, smartgun, sniper rifle. They can wear B18.
• Medical. They can use roll gauze, ointment etc...
• Engineering. They CAN make tables, chairs, beds from metal, weld/unweld doors and vents. They CAN'T make girders, walls, fake walls, slice walls, hack doors, vendors.

Well, and so on. It's the only way you can clarify what exactly each role do know and can do and what it doesn't know and can't do.

I made Knowledge page for one server when I was admin. It's really simplify both for players and admins and prevent any further arguements about roles' knowledge.

[Grypho]

Actually, some servers of SS13, has special page on Wiki called "KNOWLEDGE", where each role has it's own paragraph desscribing what they know/doesn't know, what they can use/can't use, any specific RP notes and so on. For example:

Standard Marine:

• Combat. Standards can use: M41A, SMG (PMC's too), shotgun, pistol, grenade launcher, VP-70/78, Magnum, knife, throwing knife, grenades, flamethrowers. They can't use: SADAR, smartgun, sniper rifle. They can wear B18.
• Medical. They can use roll gauze, ointment etc...
• Engineering. They CAN make tables, chairs, beds from metal, weld/unweld doors and vents. They CAN'T make girders, walls, fake walls, slice walls, hack doors, vendors.

Well, and so on. It's the only way you can clarify what exactly each role do know and can do and what it doesn't know and can't do.

I made Knowledge page for one server when I was admin. It's really simplify both for players and admins and prevent any further arguements about roles' knowledge.

The bad side with that is that the server would shackle the player to be fully controlled on what his character can do and results in players not being allowed to use their own brain. Which again results in players getting banned for attempting to do good deeds, such as healing their comrade in the battlefield and flamewars over other simple things.

Too much regulation is bad, but do enough regulation that it does not become chaos and still allows people to use common sense. I think the regulation here is not as bad as in other servers though. We do not need more rules which could potentially increase the amount of regulation because of simple things.

[Bath Salts Addict]

In regards to Medical, Standards should know basic first aid and even how to use auto injectors or syringes without killing someone/themselves.

Painkillers? No. Knowing what medicine does what? Not unless a medic or doctor tells them what it does. Face it: it's not hard. "Hey Corporal Urist McMedic, what does bicaridine do?" "Bicaridine helps speed up recovery from physical trauma." Now Urist McStandard knows what Bicaridine does.

In regards to engineering? Even less. Girders, plasteel barricades, walls and such aren't common knowledge. The most I think standards should know in regards to engineering is how to disassemble/reassemble tables.

[apophis775]

And I have a tour in Iraq. Whats your point?

So did I, in fact, I was working on the intelligence team that turned Airport road between BIAP and the Green Zone into the safest road in the world from the most dangerous in about a month. Do you want to measure dicks? If you really were in the military, then you know that we DON'T receive any AED training, or training on autoinjectors beyond the 3 neurotoxin ones. Having marines magically "know" which autoinjectors to use (based on their meta-knowledge), doesn't make sense.

There isn't much difference, and the training is still minimal and something that works. As any reason for a Defib to be used, Defibs don't heal or do anything magical, they just jolt the heart and try to establish a rhythm, in SS13 terms it just means removing oxyloss until the subject is at -95HP if possible. There is no other training required especially with a AED.

But there IS training, your everyday chucklefuck can't walk up to an AED and use it no problems. Marines are literally, your everyday chucklefuck to the extreme, also, this shifts balance away from the medic role.

And that's all that's relevant. Marines don't need to know what's in anything, CLS training you had should underscore this. It's the military, they make fool proof and train people what equipment to use, if it's not color coded it's going to have step by step instructions on and it'll be in the field manual. Identifying visual symptoms and applying first aid as needed, whether its applying combat gauze to a bullet wound, splinting a broken limb and how to apply a tourniquet. If the autoinjectors are available for use, you can be damn sure that the Corp would drill it into the grunts heads on if and when they should use them.

In short, you're missing the entire point of Auto-injectors if you intend to forbid them from general use. By design, autoinjectors are easy to use and are intended for self-administration by patients, or administration by untrained personnel.

Your missing the point of how I DESIGNED the autoinjector system to function. Remember this isn't some "bay standard" thing, I literally went and wrote all these autoinjectors up and picked specific chemicals and such to go into the aid-bags so that it functioned the way I wanted it too. That does NOT include standard marines. It isn't designed to make it easy for marines to treat people without a medic, it's designed to give medics additional on-the-ground tools instead of packing themselves with med-kits. The materials in a Medic Bag give the medics "roughly" enough materials to stabilize 2 marines from death.


This topic, is more of a discussion that a suggestion, and I clarified what was asked. I'm locking this, before it spirals further out of control. If you want to discuss this, go make a topic in general. If you want a change to what medical is allowed, make a suggestion. But I'm going to move the full clarification to the RP guidelines, and that's the standard we are going to use. No powergaming shit-marines who know full medical procedures despite having no experience in the field. That's just stupid.

Locked.