Building in hanger disallowed

[Varnock]

-1
A hangar defense rarely succeeds and marines often destroy their own defenses by mistake with explosives, while xenos have a great deal of options to handle the various problems marines throw at them anyways.

[NoShamNoWow]

Pretty much all the -1 comments sum up what my response would be. "Hit or Miss" As stated above. Seen enough aliens get through egrill and barricade defence before.

[Wickedtemp]

+1

Some rounds, when the hardcore metal barricades get places at all the entrances, it's effectively shooting fish in a barrel. Since the shuttle is, much of the time, the only cover the xenos have, the marines can oftentimes shoot a bunch, kill some, and send the shuttle back, then they can freely make their fortress and camp out until the xenos do a suicide run.

[monkeysfist101]

+1 The marines should focus on holding the LZ, not the hangar. Once the LZ is gone, marines should be pretty much screwed.

[crono23]

Yeah, -1 from me too, for all the reasons everybody's already mentioned. Really all I can throw in at this point is this:

+1 The marines should focus on holding the LZ, not the hangar. Once the LZ is gone, marines should be pretty much screwed.

Not entirely. Marines can get pretty screwed once they loose the LZ, and I've rarely seen (if ever) a time when marines have managed to recover from loosing it. However, with a hangar defense it's different. To me a hangar defense is the one last chance for marines to regain the initiative. Once the aliens have taken the hangar, really all the marines can do is call the emergency shuttles and hope to god they last long enough.

[Wickedtemp]

Yeah, -1 from me too, for all the reasons everybody's already mentioned. Really all I can throw in at this point is this:
Not entirely. Marines can get pretty screwed once they loose the LZ, and I've rarely seen (if ever) a time when marines have managed to recover from loosing it. However, with a hangar defense it's different. To me a hangar defense is the one last chance for marines to regain the initiative. Once the aliens have taken the hangar, really all the marines can do is call the emergency shuttles and hope to god they last long enough.

Honestly, I'm agreeing with Monkeysfist. If the marines lose the LZ and they have to retreat, they've... essentially lost the battle. They're being hunted. If the aliens weren't forced to go up and fight on the sulaco, it'd be a win. The aliens would return to building up the hive if the Queen ordered it. But since they HAVE to fight until every last marine is dead, they charge headfirst into a trap and sometimes just get naded to death, with the exception of crushers.

Some of the hangar defenses are just downright insane. Sometimes 2+ layers of grilles around the dropship. And all the marines have to do is send the shuttle back while the fight's going on, and they get a few more minutes to prepare even more.

[Steelpoint]

If you really wanted the game to end upon the Aliens 'taking' the LZ then you should just end the game when the Queen and X Aliens reach the Sulaco Z-Level.

[Boltersam]

It has been stated, that when the aliens board the sulaco, they're supposed to win. The fact that building in the hangar is allowed contradicts that statement, and I've been in one hangar defence that succeeded because the shuttle's landing zone was literally surrounded by egrilles, making it impossible for aliens to escape.

Now, the majority of the -1's say that the hangar defense should be allowed because marines should have a chance to win it, yes? No. They should not, as stated at the beginning of my post.

I would quote it, but I'm on my tablet. One -1 says that hangar defence should be allowed because marines are clumsy and can destroy their own defences, and because aliens have ways to handle the problems thrown at them by the marines.

This is not a balance thread. Aliens do have ways, but that's not the point. We're talking about hangar defence. And hangar defence should be allowed because they're capable of destroying their own defences? So can aliens!

[Dyne]

-1. Aliens have many tools and tactics to get through any marine defences with relative ease.

[Feweh]

+1

Fucking sick of electrified grilles encircling the shuttle and having the marines send it back down right away.
This shit is out of fucking control.

[Wickedtemp]

And on another note, unless the dropship takes off by hovering and then flying away, and lands in a similar manner, the defenders on the hangar would get crushed by it.

Also it's just a bad idea to crowd the hangar. Many times, there are wounded coming up. They need to get out of the hangar into Medbay ASAP... OH BUT THEY CAN'T! Because it's surrounded by electrified grilles!

There's other places that you can defend. Briefing and the mess hall, the bridge, Medbay, the escape shuttles, all of them have had succesful "last stands".

You just need a good commander and you need the marines to actually listen to them.

"But Wicked! Command in Marines is generally shoddy!" And? That's the marine's problem.

"But what about all the marines that refuse to obey and fortify the "last stand" location?" There's really no other answer other than "be a better marine", because an improvement like that takes so little effort, it's such a simple order.

So... Yeah. Many of the marine players are essentially greytide with guns. They're not team players. Well, sort that out in a future suggestion, because guess what? They're in the Marines, team players only.

As for the "but the Xenos are able to escape and stuff" well duh. But normally not without heavy losses. A lot of times the hangar defense is so insane by the time the Xenos get out, there's only a handful of them left. Especially with all of the late-joiners who never left the Sulaco to begin with. Even more so when the marines retreat even though they have at least 2 healthy squads. So when the aliens go to the Sulaco, there's like 30 perfectly healthy guys all shooting at them at once. So even if the Xenos get out, good luck.

[Artouris]

+1, makes sense.

First to all the people saying marine defenses are OP, thats only if you do not attempt to break out and sit there. Marine defenses fall all the time so in the end saying we should have hangar defenses is pointless. If it doesn't change anything really then why even have it? I think its a great idea to prevent building in the hangar. I honestly think it looks stupid when marines e-grill the shuttle (and i am also guilty of this) but its a hangar. How is the shuttle suppose to land if theres shit in the way?

Hell if it was me, I'd even propose a flat brute damage applied to anything around the shuttle/in the path of the shuttle when it lands because if its going to land, it's gunna go through those bloody egrilles to do so.

Finally, the goal is for the marines not to lose the ground LZ. Once you lose that you basically are done. Because assaults on the planet now are a uphill march into probably the new xenohive that hivelords built in like 5 minutes ensuring it'll be hell on the marines. Also if anything the fact you can't defend the hangar would put greater emphasis on defending the HALLWAYS on the lower deck which are quite frankly really important but no one defends them because why defend that when you can throw your resources into building a defense in the hangar that really wont work anyways.

[AVagrant]

-1

From what I've observed it's fairly easy to deal with hanger defenses given competent xeno players.

Boarding the Sulaco should only be done if you have an abundance of xeno players ready to assault the broken marine corp.

If something like this were implemented, even the smallest xeno force could probably give the Sulaco a run for it's money.

And let's face it, this would be dealing the marines a two of clubs while xenos get an Ace of Spades.

[Logi99]

+1 I remember 33 marines ran away and defended sulaco against 5 aliens. This is unfair and marines turtle in Sulaco for an hour but Queen got told by a mod to board them which left us to our death.

[NoShamNoWow]

If I remember correctly, we did have them disabled for some time. During that time, holding the hangar on the marine side was almost impossible. If we want any balanced
in hangar defense, we need to disable building of some things, not ALL defenses.

[outordinary]

And the same can't be said for going into a hive? Hive fights are literal killboxes, fighting on a marine ship would also be a killbox, right? The queen can also send the shuttle, so it isn't just an excuse for, "oh, it's not fair because they can send the shuttle back and cut off the aliens for reinforcements" because the queen could do the same for a land invasion.

Two different events, In a sulaco invasion, you have two entrances one of which can only be used if its on the planet and marines usually metacall it back up when they start to sulaco camp. One entrance which is in the same place every time. No the queen can not do the same for a land invasion, plenty of space, nexus is always defended so you can't just go and call the shuttle back to space. Why would the queen run to the LZ to do that anyway if you are on the planet? If you are invading the hive you can EASILY run away if things are bad and press if things go well.

If I remember correctly, we did have them disabled for some time. During that time, holding the hangar on the marine side was almost impossible. If we want any balanced
in hangar defense, we need to disable building of some things, not ALL defenses.

Actually to point out to an earlier suggestion, the removal of super wall bypassing grenades. I don't even know why they are still in. Maybe turrets? Those two would turn the hanger defense more towards keeping a steady amount of lead flowing from your guns rather than "welp lets sit these guns which will just shoot super accurate/damaging bullets right in the space we need em while we throw nades that go past the walls" Oh and two minutes past while we put any broken egrilles right back, time to send dat shuttle back so we can make bigger defenses/kill the rest.

[Ms.Degrasse]

-1

Just because Mines and SADAR not working in Sulaco can be explained.
("...Mines need soft or concrete based terrain to be buried or drilled in." "SADAR contains a safety mechanism that prevents it to blow the ship.")

While a hangar that magically repulses any atttempt to build on it, while on the rest of the ship it's possible to do, would be a BIZARRE thing.

Also because marines would simply move their defences to other place, mounting either three killboxes around the stairs or a FOB-like structure in some other place.

[Wickedtemp]

-1

Just because Mines and SADAR not working in Sulaco can be explained.
("...Mines need soft or concrete based terrain to be buried or drilled in." "SADAR contains a safety mechanism that prevents it to blow the ship.")

While a hangar that magically repulses any atttempt to build on it, while on the rest of the ship it's possible to do, would be a BIZARRE thing.

Also because marines would simply move their defences to other place, mounting either three killboxes around the stairs or a FOB-like structure in some other place.

There's multiple ways up to the second floor of the Sulaco. Multiple locations. So it doesn't matter, the marines could defend ONE area to an excellent extent, OR they can put small defenses and cover most of the ways in. Not both, like they do with the shuttle.

[Ms.Degrasse]

I challenge you into explaining what would change "a normal area of the ship" into "an area where no one can build anything" in a reasonable, non-immersion breaking way.

But besides that?

First, there's a shuttle, and a pod. - It's two areas they must defend on hangar. (Not one).

Second? Who said aliens must invade Sulaco by directly accessing the shuttle console (the exact action that prompts them into building hangar defenses)?
Unless someone builds a camera here, there will be no images from dropship and droppod beyond the turrets in Rasputin (those usually are destroyed quickly).
The aliens can simply stuff themselves into the shuttle and/or pod and take the marines by surprise the exact the moment they call it back.
(This makes sense in lore as aliens will spot people in those areas frequently, there will be a lot of human pheromones in it, and like... It isn't "metagame". Just a predator hunting it's prey as usual.)
...ANd they can even keep the queen on planet, and launch the second ship after the first one got retrieved.
(Superb tactic here, and also nothing that would hurt the lore or logic.)

Third? Aliens sometimes do the same on the planet, by building a lot of walls and doors with huggers around the landing zones. (And they can see the marines inside, making easier to throw huggers and acid in.)
Should alien construction around the landing zones be removed from the game too?

Fourth? For the marines, invading the caves is a hardcore mission! It's the aliens nest, after all.
There are no lights here, and that means most marines are vulnerable to spits and huggers coming from aliens positioned beyond their vision's reach. Ammo is frequently wasted to destroy all those resin constructions.
ANd don't forget aliens can easily get them by surprise, as walls are no problem for them.
It's "hell on earth" basically.
The aliens invading the "humans nest" should be made much easier than this?

[Wickedtemp]

I challenge you into explaining what would change "a normal area of the ship" into "an area where no one can build anything" in a reasonable, non-immersion breaking way.

But besides that?

First, there's a shuttle, and a pod. - It's two areas they must defend on hangar. (Not one).

Second? Who said aliens must invade Sulaco by directly accessing the shuttle console (the exact action that prompts them into building hangar defenses)?
Unless someone builds a camera here, there will be no images from dropship and droppod beyond the turrets in Rasputin (those usually are destroyed quickly).
The aliens can simply stuff themselves into the shuttle and/or pod and take the marines by surprise the exact the moment they call it back.
(This makes sense in lore as aliens will spot people in those areas frequently, there will be a lot of human pheromones in it, and like... It isn't "metagame". Just a predator hunting it's prey as usual.)
...ANd they can even keep the queen on planet, and launch the second ship after the first one got retrieved.
(Superb tactic here, and also nothing that would hurt the lore or logic.)

Third? Aliens sometimes do the same on the planet, by building a lot of walls and doors with huggers around the landing zones. (And they can see the marines inside, making easier to throw huggers and acid in.)
Should alien construction around the landing zones be removed from the game too?

Fourth? For the marines, invading the caves is a hardcore mission! It's the aliens nest, after all.
There are no lights here, and that means most marines are vulnerable to spits and huggers coming from aliens positioned beyond their vision's reach. Ammo is frequently wasted to destroy all those resin constructions.
ANd don't forget aliens can easily get them by surprise, as walls are no problem for them.
It's "hell on earth" basically.
The aliens invading the "humans nest" should be made much easier than this?

1) We're talking about the hangar in general, not the area around the dropship specifically. In general, if the dropship is heavily defended, the pod has defenses around it as well, or at the very least, the marines will easily be able to counter an attack from the pod. Also, the xenos can't call the pod down, they can only use it if it's already on the planet. It's not always viable.

2) Not viable. Once the xenos are able to actually attack the sulaco, this means the marines had to have gone into retreat, taking the shuttle with them. Unless they're really fucking stupid and decide to send it back with so few people prepared that they get slaughtered and NOBODY is able to say "Oh god, aliens here, don't recall the shuttle or else they'll board!", this likely won't happen more than once in a blue moon.

3) I'm fairly sure building anything on the LZ before the marines get here is against the rules. In fact, pretty sure even fortifying the Nexus more than a few weed nodes is also meta. Once the marines have retreated and the xenos are actually able to do so, they're gone. They're staying on the sulaco until the xenos go up to fight them. If a commander orders them to go back, they could potentially face a mutiny.

4) Due to the sheer numbers advantage the marines have over the xenos, an organized assault will rarely fail. The lack of light is easily countered via flares and flashlights, and as far as ammo waste is concerned, most marines are packing PLENTY of ammo. They also have access to resupply drops and orbital bombardments that can be used outside the caves if they don't want to waste the ammo for anything found outside, or to get more ammo.

And as for the 'challenge' you listed... I already gave a reason. When a ship is being piloted in and out of a hangar, you don't want to build metal barricades in an outline surrounding it. What if there's wounded on board? What if the dropship ends up NOT landing in EXACTLY THE SAME SPACE EVERY TIME and instead lands two feet to the left? Yeah, right on top of all of those barricades, probably damaging the shuttle and destroying the barricades in the process. Not good.

In fact, if this can somehow be changed so that the shuttle has a chance to land ANYWHERE on the landing zones planetside and in the Sulaco... That'd probably fix this. It'd be a bit more difficult to completely entrap the xenos within 2 layers of E-grilles, but a good defense would still be within reach.

[LordeKilly]

Two different events, In a sulaco invasion, you have two entrances one of which can only be used if its on the planet and marines usually metacall it back up when they start to sulaco camp. One entrance which is in the same place every time. No the queen can not do the same for a land invasion, plenty of space, nexus is always defended so you can't just go and call the shuttle back to space. Why would the queen run to the LZ to do that anyway if you are on the planet? If you are invading the hive you can EASILY run away if things are bad and press if things go well.
Actually to point out to an earlier suggestion, the removal of super wall bypassing grenades. I don't even know why they are still in. Maybe turrets? Those two would turn the hanger defense more towards keeping a steady amount of lead flowing from your guns rather than "welp lets sit these guns which will just shoot super accurate/damaging bullets right in the space we need em while we throw nades that go past the walls" Oh and two minutes past while we put any broken egrilles right back, time to send dat shuttle back so we can make bigger defenses/kill the rest.

"You can easily run away if bad things happen."

Vent Crawling, and if you say, "oh, they'll just weld the vents," then I'll just throw in the, "they can seal off the exit to the hive with walls."

And a lot of the times, I've experienced the queen abusing the shuttle more than the commander, so theres that too. I'm not saying these things as a suggestion though, I'm telling them so you can understand that what you're saying is contradictory.

[outordinary]

"You can easily run away if bad things happen."

Vent Crawling, and if you say, "oh, they'll just weld the vents," then I'll just throw in the, "they can seal off the exit to the hive with walls."

And a lot of the times, I've experienced the queen abusing the shuttle more than the commander, so theres that too. I'm not saying these things as a suggestion though, I'm telling them so you can understand that what you're saying is contradictory.

You aren't even understanding what I'm saying in the first place, we're talking about hive invasion being the same right? Some random xeno can run up as start walling one of the entrances that was made yes, but there is enough options to blow your way out of there, even then I haven't experienced many hive invasions where the xenos that would go to close the hole off would live since there will likely be one or two marines to follow. Check yourself mate. Read what I wrote again.

[Ms.Degrasse]

Guys? The xenos CAN build their nests as they want, since the game start.
There's no restrictions on it in place.
They know there are humans out there, and know they will need to hold hosts inside.

" I already gave a reason. When a ship is being piloted in and out of a hangar, you don't want to build metal barricades in an outline surrounding it. What if there's wounded on board? What if the dropship ends up NOT landing in EXACTLY THE SAME SPACE EVERY TIME and instead lands two feet to the left? Yeah, right on top of all of those barricades, probably damaging the shuttle and destroying the barricades in the process. Not good."

- No, you didn't!

I am speaking about an IN-GAME reason, related to mechanics, compatible with the theme and that isn't "just a rule".
(Because a rule, in any case, will be eventually ignored. For stuff to work in fact, there must be in-game mechanics in place. YES, it's easy for a coder to put in stuff to prevent someone to build in hangar. But it can't be explained in game, and so it also breaks immersion. "A Hangar where, for some reason, laws of physics don't work as usual.")

For the marines retreating bit, this is exactly the best time to hijack the ship.
When they abancon nexus, send the entire alien team after them. Kill them.
And occupy the drop ship.

This is the best tactic used until now.

"Aliens building in nexus is meta." - Not after they encountered marines here.
Also, again, we are talking about rules, not game mechanics.
Play a lot and you will bump into a Nexus fortification built here by aliens.
Also in landingzones completely surrounded by alien's walls and doors.

[OatzAndHoes]

-1

If aliens are good the marines will only have around 3-5 minutes to build hangar defenses. With one engineer (which is usually what ends up happening, very rarely will you see a team of 2-3 engineers building hangar defenses because usually at least half them have died or been wounded during the planet evac) this is barely enough time to get one full ring of egrills around the shuttle if you are fast and have all the materials ready (which is also difficult, as most of the plastisteel, steel and turrets have been used, destroyed, or left behind on the planet). All it takes for the aliens to break out of a single layer of egrills is for the queen to stomp, and then crushers to rush through the east side. I always see people claiming marine tactics are OP on the forums, yet the vast majority of wins on highpop and lowpop are alien wins. Nevermind the fact that once the aliens are out of the shuttle they can ventcrawl away if its the first time aliens have ever been on the sully.

[ShortTemperedLeprechaun]

Neutral, leaning towards +1. While the points made are good on why it's a BAD idea, let me point out some reasons it's a good idea to dissallow building.

1. Marines tend to retreat far too fucking early, and turtle, causing xenos to go up their, only to walk into a meat grinder.

2. This is a personal opinion, but fighting an enemy that can't fight back, and has to hide behind a wall, is a tad boring to me, as both sides.

3.An electric grille circle can be almost impossible to break half the time, because marines will shoot down any xeno with concentrated fire so fast, that they can't fire their acid glob or plant acid in time before they're dead.

These are just my personal opinions, but at one point, tophat made a suggestion for randomized shuttle landing areas for when the queen uses the console, which would easily prevent the ability for the circle jerk defense. End of my point.