Make SADARs great again.

[Egorkor]

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary): Right now the SADAR is using the bullet system instead of whatever it was using prior to, think it was the laser one. This leads to it inheriting the problems the usual guns had and or still have, and a couple of new ones.
Firstly, the rockets travel on the yet unpredictable pathes, akin to the bullets. FF much.
Secondly, they don't hit the tile you click on, they just whoosh past. So basically to get a kill you have to be at pointblank range, and even then it has a big chance of missing.
Thirdly, AP or HE rockets don't work, you fire it and it fires a bullet instead. At least that's how HE rockets work now, I think it was reported already. WH shells don't set things on fire, they just make the yet unknown radius to me very hot, and that's it. So basically a marine can run in and get roasted to death without even seeing it.

The suggestion is simple - revert the SADAR to how it was prior to the bullets update, and also up the AP shell damage while we're at it. If it's possible, up the damage it does to crushers and crushers only, since they were supposed to be a counter to them.
Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole): Getting the useful spec weapon fixed. Being able to counter crusher-spam, or any kind of spam. Reducing/increasing salt due to spam being countered and MUH ONESHOT SADAR KILLED ME!!!!!

Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc): Above, I reckon.

Implementation (Optional, if you have an idea how to implement it): Coding, basically reverting the gun to the projectile system, shells, reload time and all that to what it used to be before the updates.

[Lucius Jones]

but crushers are IMMUNE to explosions, the regular shell should not even damage them. -1

[Egorkor]

keyword - AP shell. as I said, the armorpiercing shells and the flamers were supposed to be the counters to the crushers, since people were going to raise hell about the crushers being immune to explosives in the first place.
the suggestion isn't about AP shell damage only, it's just a small part of it. if it bothers you that much, I don't really care about it. What I care about is how the sadar works currently.

[forwardslashN]

but crushers are IMMUNE to explosions, the regular shell should not even damage them. -1

Crushers are not immune to explosions. They are only immune to weak explosions, like grenades or mines. Sadar rockets will damage crushers. I'm neutral on this suggestion though. Sounds like there's some buggy behavior with the sadar that should be resolved instead of reverting it.

[AVagrant]

I'm kind of neutral in reverting back to what it was using because I don't know entirely how the old system and the new system work. It's be nice if rockets blew up on the tile you click instead of sailing. The rest sounds like just bugs.

[Egorkor]

the old system used the laser pathing, meaning it, well. travelled the way lasers did, different to the bullets, and to the bullet system currently in now. the rockets'd explode upon hitting something or someone in their path, they'd hit the exact tile you click on unless there's something in the path, and they'd not zoom past.
the new system is rockets being identical to bullets, from what I've gathered. meaning most of the problems people have been angry about regarding the new bullets apply here too.

[Abbysynth]

What problems? What are you even talking about? Rockets used to use the throw code, the pathing of which is identical to the new bullet pathing code. I should know, that's where I took the idea from. Lasers used to use step_towards pathing, which is the same as old bullet pathing, which was god awful. Rockets never used that.

When you fire a SADAR you can't fire at the ground. It aims for an actual target because it's partially self-guiding in flight, and if it overshoots it just keeps going. It's intentional. If you want to hit an area use a grenade launcher.

Phosphorous rockets don't work anywhere close to how you described. They drop a very intense single flame on whatever the rocket hits, and catches any mob in a wide radius from the impact site on fire. It's frigging amazing and if you can't use the tools correctly then don't play a rocket specialist.

[Egorkor]

What problems? What are you even talking about? Rockets used to use the throw code, the pathing of which is identical to the new bullet pathing code. I should know, that's where I took the idea from. Lasers used to use step_towards pathing, which is the same as old bullet pathing, which was god awful. Rockets never used that.

When you fire a SADAR you can't fire at the ground. It aims for an actual target because it's partially self-guiding in flight, and if it overshoots it just keeps going. It's intentional. If you want to hit an area use a grenade launcher.

Phosphorous rockets don't work anywhere close to how you described. They drop a very intense single flame on whatever the rocket hits, and catches any mob in a wide radius from the impact site on fire. It's frigging amazing and if you can't use the tools correctly then don't play a rocket specialist.

yeah, laser pathing was an assumption since it's been brought up some time ago and someone claimed it to be so. the throw code rockets were easier to use, still, because the operator had a rough idea of how the rocket'll fly. right now I'm afraid to fire it even in the wide open spaces because I almost never can tell whether it'll hit the target or not - even at nigh-pointblank range.
about the overshooting, the rockets kept going even through when I clicked directly at the target, iirc two out of three shots I fired were shot diagonally from a 4-6 tile distance - all missed. if the grenade launcher is suddenly - suddenly because nobody used it even for that purpose - supposed to be for area denial, then why do we have HE shells with a 5x5 radius that are better in every way?
about the WP, apparently I've been wrong indeed, because I thought they work like akin to the napalm frags, as in setting the area on fire. however you still cannot tell either the radius of it, or see what area has been hit apart from xenos and/or marines being set on fire, so the problem of marines running into the firestorm and getting burned without actually knowing there's a firestorm in the first place is still there.

and lastly, can we not start the epic "git gud" thing, because I am quite certain I can use the SADAR correctly, though the other players are actually to judge that.
I respect the work you do and I don't intend to shite on it, but this change has really done more bad than good, making the SADAR from one of the two best spec choices into the most useless one, surpassing even the grenade launcher. I honestly don't see a reason for it to not be reverted, since, as I can tell, you coded it in fairly quickly and easily, and the only thing it'd lose would be the smoke, and the shaking screen.

oh, forgot about the last small thing - the SADAR comes preloaded with a HE shell now, which can be an issue if say, you wanted to load the AP or WP shell in first.

[Abbysynth]

I don't think you understand. Rockets use the same pathing they have always used. Nothing has changed except your perception of it and that is filled with rumor and misinformation. There is no "firestorm" with a phosphorous rocket except a very obvious single tile of fire. It's not a DoT, it only catches things on fire once. You clicking directly on a moving target immediately proves that you have no idea how to use the projectile system correctly.

[Tristan63]

Allow SADARS to be used on sulaco

1+++++++_+++++++1

[Egorkor]

ve-ry well, seeing as your stance is adamant, let me do some testing /once more/, because I feel this is about to turn into a pointless argument.

[Abbysynth]

Just like in RL, don't aim directly at a moving target.

I lied though, rockets DO have one small difference compared to any other weapon, though it has nothing to do with pathfinding - it IS more difficult to hit because the projectile speed increases the longer distance it travels. Short range the missile moves at speed 1, then it increases to 2 and 3 the further it goes. If you'll recall originally rockets were all flat speed 1 (slowest) and people complained, so I made the shell speed ramp up over distance. Maybe this made it too difficult to hit anything? I don't know. I do see a lot of SADAR users land their hits consistently, so I am not sure what more can be done with it.

[Shadowling1232]

Just like in RL, don't aim directly at a moving target.

I lied though, rockets DO have one small difference compared to any other weapon, though it has nothing to do with pathfinding - it IS more difficult to hit because the projectile speed increases the longer distance it travels. Short range the missile moves at speed 1, then it increases to 2 and 3 the further it goes. If you'll recall originally rockets were all flat speed 1 (slowest) and people complained, so I made the shell speed ramp up over distance. Maybe this made it too difficult to hit anything? I don't know. I do see a lot of SADAR users land their hits consistently, so I am not sure what more can be done with it.

Is it possible to make the SADARS keep moving and even go out of screen for a time if they don't hit anything? Like lasers in space until the rockets eventually hit the ground.

[doodeeda]

Just like in RL, don't aim directly at a moving target.

When you fire a SADAR you can't fire at the ground

Seems contradictory. Is it homing or not?

[blute]

I critted a queen point blank with a regular explosive rocket. I'm pretty sure they are fixed now. You just gotta be steady with your target and line him up good.

[Egorkor]

bump.
did some more testing, popped a good chunk of aliens, and from what I've gathered to get a proper shot you either need to:
-either run up as close as possible to score a direct hit - and I mean a hit in a direct line, since clicking in the direction and or on the ground tile will not work, as mentioned earlier the rocket will pass by and keep flying until it hits something. diagonal shooting rarely works too, it fires in a direct line too. tried to shoot a hunter that was once again around 5 tiles away southeast from me, and the rocket went directly south.
-or shoot an object, wall, anything next to a xeno for them to get caught up in the blast radius, which is a gamble.
all in all, even with the recent fixes the SADAR remains the weapon that just doesn't pay off for using it. I've been using it for a long time, so please, believe me when I say the older version was much, much more convenient to use. I'm no coder, but I presume it's easier to revert it to how it was than keep fixing and adjusting it in its current form. (though quite honestly, I doubt it'll ever be reverted, but I guess I just had to try).

[stobarico]

+1 I shot a ravager with AP at 2 tiles of range and he dodged it by just stepping aside.

[Egorkor]

another bump. guess I can do this o'er and o'er.
I don't really know what else there is to say cause everything that could be said was said, all I can is well - the new xeno update, ancient aliens, and probably that's all I'm gonna say.

[forwardslashN]

I dunno. I'll bring this up in dev.

[Egorkor]

thanks.

[Fritigern]

Don't know if these are the exact changes that are needed, but I can agree the SADAR has had piss poor performance lately.

[Steelpoint]

This is a horid problem that makes the SADAR nigh very hard if not impossible to use.

Half the time your not aiming directly to hit a Alien due to their speed, but to predict their movement and shoot a tile.

SADAR Operators are already crippled due to all their inventory being taken up by rockets AND that they need to sacrifice their belt slot to carry just a SMG.

I've only seen one person take a SADAR in the past few days/week.

[lcass123]

I think crushers relating to this should be noted , currently crushers are impossible to defeat unless you have lots of marines spamming AP rounds ( this is a situation where there is one entrance the crusher is just moving forwards). Given that there is usually 1 sadar marine every other round having it so that the SADAR using AP rockets can crit or put down a crusher would be good for balance as they are basically immune to damage even if it's mines (which is still pretty stupid).

[Steelpoint]

If you want to see more SADAR operators you need to buff the SADAR so you can at least shoot it at a tile to detonate the rocket.

Right now the SADAR is a tad to unfriendly to use. Putting aside the cost of getting more rockets.

I can say that fortunately its now much easier to carry rockets now that you can place them in your belt and armour slots.

[lcass123]

well the lag on the server doesn't contribute to this , considering the long reload times and such it makes actually hitting anything with the sadar basically impossible. also it's a rocket and it should hit a target on a tile no matter what , seeing a sadar fly by 2 aliens is not ok. Make SADARs great again , build the sadar wall.