Marine Upgrade System

[Steelpoint]

Summary: The current problem with Marines is that they lack a effective end game, what they start with at the start of the round is what they'll finish the round using, whereas the Aliens start from a larva all the way up to a T3 xenomorph. My proposal here is a upgrade system for Marines to allow them to upgrade their gear through out a match and thus remain somewhat competitive with Aliens.

Benefits: Giving the Marine side a proper way to upgrade their equipment individually may hopefully help level the playing field between Marines and Aliens, as well as offer incentives for Marines to accomplish objectives (more below) as well as to upgrade and tailor their kit as the match progresses, as well as possible allow us to also further buff Xenomorphs if individual Marines are able to become slightly more powerful.

In addition as noted below. This feature will give a greater emphasis on creating a well defended FoB. It'll also make it far easier for Marines to get new equipment. Whereas Aliens operate somewhat independently and as such just grow new upgrades, but for Mariens your reliant on RD and Cargo for ammo and weapons, and they often fail at this. While with this proposal you'll still be constrained by Cargo but at least you can earn your upgrades in the field.

Details: Each individual Marine now has a personal "upgrade points" (UP) associated with them. UP's can increment in any one of three ways. Firstly UPs increment at a slow rate every five or so minutes, secondly if the Marines accomplish a random objective issued by High Command (Command can select which order to issue to his teams) then all Marines are rewarded with a small amount of UPs. Finally admins can issue individual Marines with UPs for any and whatever reason in a In Character sense.

These objectives are small secondary objectives, such as locate and secure a set of documents, find and return x number of xenomorph specimens dead, return x number of dead colonists, etc etc.

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How the upgrade system works is simple. There are three Tiers of upgrades, Tier One through to Tier Three.

* Tier One is the starting level, no upgrades are offered to Marines.

* Tier Two. For the Marines to unlock they must either accomplish two secondary objectives, or secure five dead T2 xenomorph specimens to the Sulaco.

* Tier Three. To unlock either five secondary objectives must be accomplished, or three dead T3 xenomorph specimens must be returned to the Sulaco.

Each successive Tier past Tier One will offer a upgrade to each unique Weapon and Armour on offer to Marines. So at Tier 2 a single Marine can chose to spend their limited amount of Upgrade Points to, for example, upgrade their M41A to a M41A/2 Battle Rifle (as a random example of a weapon), or they could chose to buy a more powerful armour flashlight attachment. At Tier 3 even more powerful upgrades are on offer, such as perhaps a M41AE2 Heavy Pulse Rifle (as a example).

Or a Marine can instead chose to instead spend less UPs to simply upgrade their default weapon, so instead of ( as a example) spending ten UPs on buying a better Rifle they can instead spend two UPs giving their M41A a minor boost.

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This is the part I consider very important.

Marines must buy their upgrades from a Upgrade Terminal. One terminal can be found on the Sulaco and one mobile Terminal can be found on the Rasputin which can be moved to the FoB, but it can be destroyed by the Xenomorphs.

The mobile terminal must be fed a fuel source to power, the fuel must be brought down from Engineering at regular internals. When a Marine interacts with a Upgrade Terminal they can chose to upgrade a weapon or armour item on their person, you can't upgrade a SMG if you don't have one.

A Marine must insert the item they wish to upgrade into the terminal, no duplicating weapons and stuff.

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This is more a rant for me nor do I expect for this to get praise or even be considered a feature. But I enjoy detailing features as well as myself questioning how a Marine late game will work, as its been show historically that Cargo and RnD are not the most reliable for providing ammo and equipment for Marines over the course of two or so hours.

Thanks for reading this wall of text.

[Seehund]

tentative +1 for ancient marine (289)

Seems rather well thought-out, too, which is always nice.
Should keep the marines at least a bit more competitive.

[Sargeantmuffinman]

Interesting...

[RoswellRay]

-1
I'll say this to the day I day, I want ss13 to stay ss13,the core of which resembles simulation,not an FPS. I don't want a shitty 2d CoD where if my marine kills 10 xenos in a row he gets an airstrike for some illogical fucking reason.

[ThatCrazyBridgeOfficer]

Actually I believe we should separate the systems.
(And while I like the idea of the Marine's stealing the alien's advancement system via upgrades I believe we can do much better)
Keep in mind that this will also cause the rounds to become a stalling/delaying fest where now /both/ sides want to sit back and upgrade before attacking, thus causing rounds to go from 3 hours long to 4/5 hours.

As you know, the Xenomorphs have one fatal flaw when it comes to warfare.
They cannot adapt, once they evolve they're stuck like that forever, with all the disadvantages their new forms bring.

Marines are special, (Yes because they're human, bla bla) they aren't restricted in what they can use and or become, give marines more specialists per-squad and make it the marine's job to select the right weapons to counter the alien's evolutions.
Failing to do so SHOULD cause the marines to fail their mission reasonably, instead of crying about balance people will cry about each other not listening to orders and become better at being marines, aka, following orders.


Also I've been writing ideas for an objective/mission based suggestion, we should talk and pool our ideas together.

[Steelpoint]

If I were to expand my thoughts I would say the following.

* You don't gain Upgrade Points on the Sulaco. You only gain points for being on the planet. Falling back to the Sulaco will be even more of a failure since now you're no longer getting any way to upgrade.

* Its very common for Marines to bring back dead Xenomorphs in a role play manner, I just wanted to propose a incentive to go out and attack Xenomorphs.

* The upgrades should be minor, going from a M41A to whatever the Tier 2 gun is called should not be the difference between day and night, but it should still be a upgrade.

If I was to go even further I would say just gut the idea of earning Upgrade Points passivly and make it that Marines have to go out and earn their upgrade via accomplishing objectives and retrieving high level corpses. Hell make Objectives involve having to locate randomly placed beacons or something on the map.

[RoswellRay]

If I were to expand my thoughts I would say the following.

* You don't gain Upgrade Points on the Sulaco. You only gain points for being on the planet. Falling back to the Sulaco will be even more of a failure since now you're no longer getting any way to upgrade.

* Its very common for Marines to bring back dead Xenomorphs in a role play manner, I just wanted to propose a incentive to go out and attack Xenomorphs.

* The upgrades should be minor, going from a M41A to whatever the Tier 2 gun is called should not be the difference between day and night, but it should still be a upgrade.

If I was to go even further I would say just gut the idea of earning Upgrade Points passivly and make it that Marines have to go out and earn their upgrade via accomplishing objectives and retrieving high level corpses. Hell make Objectives involve having to locate randomly placed beacons or something on the map.

Still don't like it, this is the USCM not chucky cheese.

[KingKire]

-1/ +0. im negative to neutral on this suggestion. i personally like having two different power curves for the Aliens and Marine forces. Aliens have a power curve which is a steady climb once they receive one dose of the queens jelly. This path is one way and very specific for each alien as they grow stronger by adapting their entire bodies to fit the problem. Marine forces on the other hand "should" technically grow stronger as they adapt their tools to deal with the problem at hand. Human forces power curve right now is a very shallow sloping line where marines have a large lead in the beginning in terms of raw power and very slow increase rate which means they get passed up powerwise by aliens evolving very quickly. I think with research changes and other suggestions being added, the marine forces will have a their own power curve jump up in steps in a similar fashion to the aliens. I do think marines should be able to learn of some ways they can make fighting against Aliens more effective, but the Perks system might be a little too "gamemechanic-y" for me to back up.

[Monoo]

Still don't like it, this is the USCM not chucky cheese.

No different than vanilla ss13's mining rewards program, right? No different than getting upgraded guns after giving research plasma and uranium and shit. Not a major change by any stretch of the imagination.

[TopHatPenguin]

The individual upgrades sound like a great idea, but I think it would also be nice to have squad upgrades and department upgrades as well which you can save your individual UP's for to improve the squad/department through various tiered upgrades (can't think of any group/squad upgrades currently but it would be nice to have imo)
[Tag along suggestion]

These are all just examples (before you say any of the below examples are abuse-able, i'm well aware of that it's just I couldn't think of anything else to put down so they are placeholders) of what could be put in place to encourage members of the Sulaco staff to do their job instead of wandering off:
---------------Medical------------------
Gain x amount of UP from completeling surgeries
Gain x amount of UP from clonning a marine (while cloning is still in, if it's not in at the time then everytime a succesful defib is completed)
You chaps can probably think of more but that's just a brief outline.

---------------Command------------------
Gain x amount of UP for updating squad orders.

(can't really think of much for command atm)

---------------Engineering------------------
Gain x amount of UP for setting up the SM.
Gain x amount of UP for fixing machines.
Gain x amount of Up for having power consistently up for a certain amount of time.
----------------------------------------

The above UP's split between departments (was going to put Req up there but wasn't too sure for an example of what they could get, I guess if enough Up points were put into the Req department they could get an upgraded scanner for rare materials and then be able to go mining?) would be how the crew who work in those departments could gain UP, which they could spend like the marines on something for themselves or for the department as a whole.

Even if you chaps disagree with the Sulaco department UP system, I'd still be hoping you could see reason with having a Squad UP system.


These are just some thoughts that i've had while going over this thread, feel free to ignore them as ideas of a madman.

[Tristan63]

More times then not the marines will outnumber the xenos and the Xenos will have to actually use tactics and try not to die.
Whereas marines normally dont give a shit if they die because they know theirs a man to fill in their role, and marines almost never work together. If-per say this upgrade system made marines by rule work together, then maybe it could count as a significant advantage, and then removing friendly fire after.

[Sarah_U.]

NEUTRAL untill research update actually shows up and do all that stuff you already mentionned, in a more logical and less random way.

I'm extremely leaned for a -1, because seriously it'd be an hassle to implement and would break my immersion a lot (Medium RP server yea?); What about the marines that didn't see those dead bodies or document, how did the marines get the equipment so fast, etc.
If you really want to upgrade the system at least wait for the research update so we can concider what changes it'll implement and reflect on it to adapt your suggestion even.

(EDIT: Sorry for harsh tone it used, I was in a rush to write and the idea itself is valid, marines do need a way to improve and adapt just like Natural Selection 2 does to a degree, but not in the ways you mentionned imo)

[TeDGamer]

-1.

Research should really be the only upgrades and not skill.

It should be items that make marines more dangerous, not skills. Marines are meant to be expendables and are meant to be standard. There might be some offsets that are different but most of them should be the same.

[MrJJJ]

Marines are meant to be expendables and are meant to be standard.

When did we became the IG or USSR?

[Wickedtemp]

-1
That's research's job. If you want a better gun, get attachments. If you want bigger explosives, bother Science. Xenos have an upgrade system because people kept bitching about xenos invading with a force full of T3's, and it makes IC sense because the xenos have jelly, they're maturing and growing either way so they're going to get stronger regardless of whether they evolve or not. If cargo and science don't respond, then... tough luck, I guess. Marines can't do EVERYTHING on their own, they need their support roles.

Marines don't lack an effective "end-game". I'm saying this as a xeno and marine player, the main reason from what I've experienced behind the marine losses? Their premature retreats. Defending a forward nest in the Corperate dome, just a Queen and a Hivelord, and the marines retreated and ran off from TWO xenos. Xenos were outright FUCKED that round, I was the Queen (first time as the Queen so I kept fucking up the screech), the marines were wrecking our collective shit with flamers and grenade launchers, all they had to do was attack with more than one marine at a time.

And they never fuckin' did. Instead, they ran off. The hive was rebuilt from two xenos --we captured a few marines during the fight and also we found a couple monkeys and attacked the Sulaco later, xeno major victory. They lost cause they retreated from TWO aliens.

Then, playing as a marine, we assault the hives. It's literally like... one squad of people attacking, total. The rest of the marines are at the FOB or whatever, chilling, listening to us calling for reinforcements because we're winning the battle and need to make a final push to wipe the xenos out. The Queen was dead, most of the T3's were as well, and you know what happened? Well, I got my head broken so I fall down and just stop moving cause I don't want to die from brain damage. Then, all of the marines retreat out of the hive. We were WINNING THE FIGHT, there was like three or so xenos left, we had them CORNERED, and marines STILL RAN AWAY. Now, eventually more marines grew a pair and decided to go fight, they won, marine major.

If the marines actually fight and coordinate, they can win. But if they play on the defensive all damn day and rely on sentries and mines and one guy behind em with a sniper rifle, chances are they're going to get fucked. Seriously, you guys don't understand how effective the incinerators are. You HAVE all the tools, you just don't USE them.

"The xenos keep attacking us."
"So shoot them."
"But they heal and stuff!"
"Then get rid of the weeds."
"We can't get close!"
"Use the incinerator and incendiary grenades."

But no, instead, the guy with the flamethrower is chasing a Hunter around and lighting his squadmates on fire when he misses. That's a job for IC intervention and discipline from the SL, or whoever happens to be on the next step of the command ladder... Oh, those people suck too? Are they not responding? Take command of the situation yourself. Command won't get better if you just let it suck and do nothing. This is the roleplaying part of the server. On an IC level, everybody had to have EARNED their rank. If you have a CO who absolutely sucks ass, then bring it up, because obviously whoever appointed them to be the CO did it by mistake. This doesn't mean "MUTINY!!!", but you have to hold Command to some sort of quality standard, and you need to STICK to that standard, else you're going to be getting bald CO's. This also goes for any non-marine human roles, really. I mean, first-time doctors really shouldn't be using CM as a starting point anyways because it's much faster paced and you'll be working a LOT more than other servers so it's kind of a trial-by-fire kind of deal, but for the ones that do anyways, you gotta help em out and know when to take charge yourself if you know what to do.

[lucashunter608]

Its a cool idea, buuuut...too many OP marines dude, if the xenos got buffed and we still win, that means two things, goddamn son look at that team-work!, or braindead xenos everywhere, i feel like the marines would just wipe the little fuckers in one second, marines already have those cool toys, like the smartgun for example, that thing can take care off a queen in probably one reload, or the grenade launcher for example, if you stun an alien its practically dead, and also the lovely attachments, that big ass armory full of cool guns!, i would stick with a neutral, the idea is cool, but i don't want marine wins everytime

[Boltersam]

Noize made a suggestion like this, though they were passive buffs gained from things like shooting and hitting aliens, surviving damage, etcetera.

[KingKire]

-1

Marines don't lack an effective "end-game". I'm saying this as a xeno and marine player, the main reason from what I've experienced behind the marine losses? Their premature retreats. Defending a forward nest in the Corperate dome, just a Queen and a Hivelord, and the marines retreated and ran off from TWO xenos. Xenos were outright FUCKED that round, I was the Queen (first time as the Queen so I kept fucking up the screech), the marines were wrecking our collective shit with flamers and grenade launchers, all they had to do was attack with more than one marine at a time.

And they never fuckin' did. Instead, they ran off. The hive was rebuilt from two xenos --we captured a few marines during the fight and also we found a couple monkeys and attacked the Sulaco later, xeno major victory. They lost cause they retreated from TWO aliens.

Look, im pretty sure i remember this battle. Everything isnt always so cut and dried as there are 10 marines vs. 2 xenos. If i remember that battle correctly, it was a late stage queen and a medium stage hivelord. The marine side was 7 to 10ish marines left.

2 to 10 doesnt sound like bad odds, but lets look at it further. The marine side had about 2 to 4ish moderately wounded troopers, all squad leaders were dead, there was 1 medic left, 1 or two engineers, and the rest of the troopers did not get equipped gear since they had come later on in the game. So now we have about 4 to 6ish combat capable troopers who are generally green and poorly equipped. Lets take a look at the FOB. It had came from a pretty heavy xeno assault just earlier, where several marines were killed, and the defenses were smashed up pretty hard. How about command? well, as said before, there were no squad leaders alive on the surface. On the SULACO, Command was pretty devastated and ineffectual as well. There might have only been one lower ranked officer in charge left i believe. Supplies were heavily exhausted, medicine was depleted.

Now were starting to get a clearer picture of the battle. Instead of freshly equipped, experienced troops led by good leaders, we have a recently chewed up, poorly equipped, poorly led ragtag crew of survivors from several squads. But King, i hear you say... there were only two Xenos left to fight! You are right, there are only two xenos left, but lets take a closer look again. A queen by herself is a devastating opponent when played well, and although you said that you were poor and missed several screeches, you were smart enough to make it hard for the marines to come and kill you. A queen can be killed easily if she is kited and pushed but she should not be taken as a joke, as a queen can and will kill or infect you if you mess up.

Lets not forget that xenos have perfect vision of people around them. 7 tiles of perfect vision around them for a 14x14 square. Marines dont have that luxury. They have a light bubble that extends 3 tiles away on a good day, for a weak 6x6 circle. Thats a 160! tile difference of what a marine can normally see in the dark vs. a Xeno. Add on that Marines cant see through walls so any vision that they have is further obstructed by anything that blocks it.

I could probably add on other stuff, but this group of factors alone tell us that the "10" marines on the ground were definitely equal or less in strength then the two xeno's left alive.

[Steelpoint]

I've seen one Alien be able to hold off a larger force of Marines. So long as the player is smart and they use their environment to their advantages its very possible for a small amount of players to fend off a larger force.

My idea was simply to give Marines some way to personalize and upgrade their gear to a minor extent later on in a game, nothing that needs to be overpowered but at least it'll be something.

Maybe throw in a way for the research to upload data disks of new equipment.

[forwardslashN]

Noize made a suggestion like this, though they were passive buffs gained from things like shooting and hitting aliens, surviving damage, etcetera.

My suggestion was based on individual achievement. I don't think this is entirely the right direction for an upgrade system, but I''ll leave this open for feedback.

[Snypehunter007]

There has been no more feedback since /N's last post.

Asking this to be locked.

[forwardslashN]

I don't think this is happening. Denied.