Metarush rule clarification

[Toroic]

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary):

Metarush applies to crossing the river before 30 minutes only.


Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole):

Rule clarification that is easy to enforce and fair to both teams.


Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc):

Before 30 minutes, marines are not allowed north of the river, but may freely cross after that provided they have IC reason to do so (see weeds, have checked the rest of the colony, see xenos crossing, talked to a survivor)

Reason 30 min was chosen is that it takes 25 minutes for the first wave of hosts to burst, and 30 min is enough time for xenos to make defenses.

Marines rarely touch down before 20 min, so 10 minutes is not a long wait.


Implementation (Optional, if you have an idea how to implement it):

Just a rule clarification that prevents super early xenos leading marines to the hive, and prevents marines from getting ahelped during legitimate 40 minute hive assaults.

[EMT_321]

This seems fair for both sides. Aliens who wish to forestall marine advances can do things like not run straight back to the hive, or use tunnels. This gives the aliens some breathing room to ensure defences and new larva can adequately grow.

It's infuriating to be impeded at the 50 minute mark when assaulting a known hive.

+1

Total: +2

[username123]

+1, toroic leaves no space to argue really.

[KingKire]

+0/+1 The only reason why i have reservations on this suggestion is due to the fact marines or aliens lack any way of easily telling the time.

[apophis775]

IDK if we need this. Meta-Rush is literally "Getting ordered to rush to the north without investigating the colony"

[Infant Punter]

Meta rush is a pain in the dick to enforce.

I think having some clear guidelines to it would help.

[Warnipple]

Well Apops posted but my definition of metarush is chasing aliens during first contact instead of letting them run away. You don't really do this. Its an issue when you chase them straight back to their hive because they don't have weeds set up outside the hive to run faster.

Then another issue that comes up is following the weeds straight to the hive.

During the first landing, marines are insanely strong because they have full numbers, full ammo, full spec weapons and ammo while aliens are still young. Mostly tier 2s with the hive not built up and a shortage of facehuggers and respawns. Which is why I try to prevent metarushes as much as possible because it gimps one team severely.

[Iatots]

Drawing a line like this will just make people line up and wait for the mark. If marines work quickly, which they are more likely to in the near future as greytide is receding, they could be finished with the southern side more quickly.
-1 because metarush becomes metawait, and it's still meta.

[Sarah_U.]

I'd simply make the wait 30min and enforce the rule with the following method: Command cannot order a general rush north especially if they don't have an FOB untill the 30min mark. After that that's their funeral.
If some rambos want to push north, just follow previously stated guidelines... Weeds, alien sighting, etc. If they're going off by themselves it's clear meta.

Sidenote: The map I want to make has 3 layers of blast doors which require power from 3 sub-stations to work. I hope I get whitelisted since issues like this wouldn't occur if xenos can't even be reached by standard means.

[Neray]

-1, it depends on each round. Sometimes aliens are just fucking inviting marines to follow em up north. We don't need metawaits to deal with metarushes.

[Toroic]

Drawing a line like this will just make people line up and wait for the mark. If marines work quickly, which they are more likely to in the near future as greytide is receding, they could be finished with the southern side more quickly.
-1 because metarush becomes metawait, and it's still meta.

Except the current issue is hard for mods to enforce, and xenos aren't ready for a 22 minute hive defense.

Marines already metawait for a pretext to attack north, and one dumb xeno under the current rules could lead marines back to the hive shortly after they land. Marines also sometimes are nervous to attack because they don't want to get in trouble for metarush.

This puts staff in a difficult position: do we let one young runner ruin the round for the xenos, or do we intervene?

30 minutes is enough time for xenos to be ready to defend and not just get destroyed.

I've heard of marines getting pinged for metarush 50 minutes into the round, which is silly.

30 minutes prevents ruined rounds, and attacking in force past that point for marines means they are going to have a much weaker FOB if they lose.

-1, it depends on each round. Sometimes aliens are just fucking inviting marines to follow em up north. We don't need metawaits to deal with metarushes.

Except one baldie xeno shouldn't ruin it for the whole xeno team by leading marines to the hive.

This rule makes staff enforcement easier and more consistent, and makes marines clear to attack after 30 minutes as normal.

Even if xenos are trying to avoid marines a rambo or survivor is going to give them intel close to the 30 minute mark.

Again, marines land 20 minutes into the round, and it's rare they attack before 30 minutes, but I want them to be freer to attack after while still protecting xenos early.

[Renomaki]

I was once an XO who got bwonked for metarush when I myself swear we searched every inch of the main base, and also had a perfectly logical reason to move across the river (seek our other survivors that might be trapped in the mines). I had assumed that my battleplan was working perfectly since the marines were doing very well that round.. But then I got in trouble with Warnipple if I recall correctly and he accused me of metarushing, which left me confused and disappointed because I swore I was following the rules.. Sure, we won the round in about an hour, but according to some xenos, they themselves said that they lost more due to lack of robustness.

I like feeling like a good commander, whose tactics, planning and leadership lead his marines to victory fair and square. When I was told that I was metarushing, I was downhearted and disappointed, my high crashed into a wall and brought into a slight state sadness.

Having a more detailed metarush rule would make it easier to work into my battleplans when I go commander, and have a greater sense of accomplishment that I won without breaking the rules and playing fairly as the commander of my army.

Please let this happen. 1+

[EMT_321]

Currently metarush rules are not clarified. Being impeded at the 50 minute mark from assaulting really knocks the wind out of marines sails.

I am reminded about when marines were combat slept at the 45 minute mark for chasing a retreating queen/boiler back into the hive after a failed attack. It was recieved exceedingly poorly when they were accused of metarush.

Different admins have very different qualifications for what a metarush is. Warnipple for instance has a very broad definition, and tends to enforce longer wait periods than TR-Blackdragon or Feweh, in my experience. Making a clear demarcation will prevent said issues.

[Biolock]

-1, it's already covered in meta gaming; if the marines rush to the caves it's made obvous by both the xenos complaining and the more respectable marine players a-helping.
Players don't need more arbitrary rules to follow, there's enough strings as it is in this aspect.

[slc97]

One of the big problems is, everyone claims a difference between what metarush is and isn't.
Just two days ago I bwoinked a CO who ordered marines to make the first lading FOB across the river and then told me it wasn't a metarush.

Like Biolock said, the way we on staff know it's a metarush is when aliens are getting absolutely wrecked, and some of the more self-aware marine players ahelp it.
-1 there's really no need to add this extraneous rule.

[EMT_321]

Like Biolock said, the way we on staff know it's a metarush is when aliens are getting absolutely wrecked, and some of the more self-aware marine players ahelp it.
-1 there's really no need to add this extraneous rule.

This doesnt make sense. A hive with no effective drones can get wrecked at the 60 minute mark, just as much as a hive at the 30 minute mark.

Applying concrete rules and eliminating discretion will allow for more flexibility on both sides. Right now, its infuriating to be told 50 minutes into a round after chasing overly aggressive xenos back "You are doing too well, retreat or we kill you". What one admin views as metarush does not neccesarily correlate with what others see. This "we'll know it when we see it" argument is weak, and doesnt translate into a way for players to self-regulate.

[ZDashe]

Since this thread is about Meta-rushing, just wanted to toss in the other side of this discussion for it to be wholesome. From what I gather so far, some people are in favor for the rule clarification to protect Xenos from marine metarushes. What about the occasions when Xenos weed the Nexus? Should there be rule clarifications for that too? I ask this because I noticed some players bringing this up during meta-rushing as a counter argument.

Currently, the meta-gaming rule that governs Xeno is in effect if Xenos meta camp the LZs/dump dead colonists corpses on LZs/wall off the Nexus entrance/lay huggers in front of the dropship/pod entrances before Marines land. This is because Xenos do not know that Marines are arriving and by performing such acts with surgical precision, it's a clear sign of meta-gaming. Whereas for weeding specific domes before marines land, this becomes a gray area and gathers a bit of salt. What do you guys think?

As some of you may know, I play both Marine and Xeno quite frequently, so I just want voices from both sides to be heard since it's about rule clarification anyway.

Regarding the Marine anti-metarush rule of setting timers, I'm gonna go -1 because I feel that would create a new meta for rounds based around timing.

Drawing a line like this will just make people line up and wait for the mark. <snip>
-1 because metarush becomes metawait, and it's still meta.

I still like my rounds to be dynamic and not revolve around a rigid timer, which makes no RP sense. On the other hand, if Marines decides to "investigate the colony" by heading straight underground upon landing on the Shiva Ice map, I'm totally in favor of having a sleeping gas leakage event to prevent metarushing. Maybe have an earthquake that threatens a cavern collapse if Marines want to meta rush the Lazarus caves on purpose. I'm in favor of having staff decide whether one side is metarushing or not. Use ahelp if you feel the other side is doing it to you.

[Toroic]

Since this thread is about Meta-rushing, just wanted to toss in the other side of this discussion for it to be wholesome. From what I gather so far, some people are in favor for the rule clarification to protect Xenos from marine metarushes. What about the occasions when Xenos weed the Nexus? Should there be rule clarifications for that too? I ask this because I noticed some players bringing this up during meta-rushing as a counter argument.

Currently, the meta-gaming rule that governs Xeno is in effect if Xenos meta camp the LZs/dump dead colonists corpses on LZs/wall off the Nexus entrance/lay huggers in front of the dropship/pod entrances before Marines land. This is because Xenos do not know that Marines are arriving and by performing such acts with surgical precision, it's a clear sign of meta-gaming. Whereas for weeding specific domes before marines land, this becomes a gray area and gathers a bit of salt. What do you guys think?

As some of you may know, I play both Marine and Xeno quite frequently, so I just want voices from both sides to be heard since it's about rule clarification anyway.

Regarding the Marine anti-metarush rule of setting timers, I'm gonna go -1 because I feel that would create a new meta for rounds based around timing.I still like my rounds to be dynamic and not revolve around a rigid timer, which makes no RP sense. On the other hand, if Marines decides to "investigate the colony" by heading straight underground upon landing on the Shiva Ice map, I'm totally in favor of having a sleeping gas leakage event to prevent metarushing. Maybe have an earthquake that threatens a cavern collapse if Marines want to meta rush the Lazarus caves on purpose. I'm in favor of having staff decide whether one side is metarushing or not. Use ahelp if you feel the other side is doing it to you.

Unguarded weeds are incredibly easy to remove for marines, so pre-weeding say the nexus is annoying but not difficult to remove.

The point of having a timer set on metarush is because players are experiencing inconsistent enforcement of the rule and getting angry.

[InterroLouis]

On the other hand, if Marines decides to "investigate the colony" by heading straight underground upon landing on the Shiva Ice map, I'm totally in favor of having a sleeping gas leakage event to prevent metarushing.

How about no? Ice Colony rounds already become campfests, and as soon as xenos know marines are there they will camp every single route to the basement, elevators and ladders. In the first testing of Ice Colony since I started playing, the only round the marines won we established the FOB under the science elevator. It wasn't a curbstomp by marines, it was a long and hard fought battle that ended with massive piles of xeno corpses in front of our basement FOB. It made things interesting, instead of the usual ladder camping for Ice Colony. The basement on Ice Colony is an entirely different situation from the caves on LV-624.
The ability of BOTH sides to easily camp a ladder or elevator and take out any members of the other team that head up it means that if you limit taking the elevators to a certain amount of time having passed, there isn't anything for the teams to do BUT fortify the top/bottom of the ladders/elevators.

[Eenkogneeto]

I think one of the bigger issues is the admins look and see the marines getting rekt in a metarush and go 'yeah its fine'
That conditions them to think its fine, so when they do it again to unrobust ayys the ayys get rekt and everyones crying again.
Yes I can stop a metarush as queen, But that doesn't mean every queens can.

[TellTale]

Unguarded weeds are incredibly easy to remove for marines, so pre-weeding say the nexus is annoying but not difficult to remove.

The point of having a timer set on metarush is because players are experiencing inconsistent enforcement of the rule and getting angry.

i cannot agree more with this. as someone who primarily plays as a marine: its super frustrating to play two distinct rounds the same way, but get nuked from orbit because a badmin happened to disagree with my squad's timing. not to say that i've never been early to the party, but having something distinct to look out for would help remove ambiguity from these instances.

putting something like this in the ruleset wouldn't eliminate the use of rule 0 either. if extenuating circumstances (early/late marine deployment, nobody selected queen, survivors clapped some cheeks, etc.) would necessitate a shift in either direction, el jefe could slow down the marines within reason.

i don't think it's particularly healthy gameplay wise for things to continue as they are, either. right now i can be standing on the riverbank 45m in and wonder if i should chase after my squadmate when they get abducted right in front of me. i know i could probably save them, the xeno-player nabbing him surely didn't have stealth in mind, but most of the time i'll let him die because i'm afraid the river will get carpet bombed if i wade in pursuit. i shouldn't have to weigh that player's round against what may or may not be on the local mod's mind at the time. after a set point in the round, made clear to all parties, i should feel no hesitation to charge in and get captured myself like i do time and time again.

[MrJJJ]

I think this needs to get a mechanical fix asap, and take much higher priority.
However, until that's done, i really think *30* minutes should be good Enough, at that point, Aliens usually have T3's, and a few mature/elite T1/T2's, which is a decent enough force, 45 minutes or even a hour is completely Ridiculous, by that time, Even the Queen is probably Elite, which makes Marines get...destroyed rather quickly most of the time.

[Rahlzel]

Mechanical fix done.