Xeno corner spit guarding should count as Powergaming or META

[Shyguychizzy]

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary):
As witnessing this, I know it is fair to spit from corners due to marines can shoot as well as xenos can but....I think it shouldn't be used like this. As seeing this pattern, xeno sits at the corner...waits for marine to pop up then get spat on instantly even though the marine resisted and waited for the timer. The marine didn't even have a chance due to being limited space as well can't do much due to one spit=your fucked and quickly back in resin that fast, as well as you can't see the xeno thinking its safe then get's spit on. Can't really see the xenos but how can you even escape? I mean I understand a xeno opening doors to spit but basically Xeno puppy guarding via corner? Thank gawd that there aint no more corner tackles but still.
Example 1: (Tried screenshotting at the right moment but they opened the doors anywho spitter stays stationary at corner as you can see) https://gyazo.com/a455dc8aa23167de01b12cc9127935a2
Example 2: https://gyazo.com/a455dc8aa23167de01b12cc9127935a2
Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole):
I presume salt as well as giving marines a chance to escape say from those corner shots. Honestly I understand to restrict em from suicide but for real gets knocked down before you can do anything, I am fine with they open door and bam spit but all doors closed. Spit comes from corner, definite hit and marines can't dodge em due to the range as well as more likely xenos already have spit at already once they are up.
Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc):
Basically what I had stated for Benefits.
Implementation (Optional, if you have an idea how to implement it): Count corner spitting guarding as Meta or Powergaming. Corner spitting I do not have nothing against its when xenos puppy guard the shit out of nest to keep on spitting at the corner is what bothers me.

[Damarik]

+1

As Xeno Main, it's too easy, and it's just bad gaming. I've been trying to encourage people not to do this, now that I've seen how frustrating it is from the Marine side. 9/10 times, you end up Raging the Marine so hard that they Ghost and turn off Xeno pref, leaving the Hive all that much weaker.


As a Marine...it's impossible to escape from. There is about a 1% chance that you will ever get away from a Sentinel/Spitter doing its job at a nest like this due to Corner Spitting. They don't have to open the nest door to get you. Just Spit and you're back down.

[dylanstrategie]

Just so we're clear, this is not only abused by Xenomorphs, and in fact Marines benefit from a lot more due to their entire gameplay being based around ranged weapons. For the most part, if a Spitter can cornershoot you, you can shoot them back

A rule about this would be impossible to enforce properly because everyone on the server uses corner shooting at a point or another, intentionally or not. And deploying a fix to this would take a very long time

Until further notice, this is considered a "normal part" of gameplay, for better or for worse, although extremely egregious abuses (Marines building an entire girder wall in a diagonal pattern to corner shoot through it, or Xenomorphs building a long diagonal line of resin structures) may still warrant admin intervention

[Damarik]

Just so we're clear, this is not only abused by Xenomorphs, and in fact Marines benefit from a lot more due to their entire gameplay being based around ranged weapons. For the most part, if a Spitter can cornershoot you, you can shoot them back

A rule about this would be impossible to enforce properly because everyone on the server uses corner shooting at a point or another, intentionally or not. And deploying a fix to this would take a very long time

Until further notice, this is considered a "normal part" of gameplay, for better or for worse, although extremely egregious abuses (Marines building an entire girder wall in a diagonal pattern to corner shoot through it, or Xenomorphs building a long diagonal line of resin structures) may still warrant admin intervention

I think OP is just talking about making it illegal for Sentinels/Spitters to Corner Shoot a nested host. They said they didn't have a problem with CornerSpitting in general, just how the Xenos tend to do it while guarding downed and infected marines.

[Doc]

I think the main problem concerning xenos use of corner shooting is that NO marines EVER have a way of seeing through walls, while ALL xenos can ALWAYS see through walls. While yes, marines "can" use corner shooting, it's certainly not comparable to the abusive tactics xenos use to exploit it, paticularly against completely unarmed captures that already have minimal chances of escaping, and now have literally zero because they have no way of countering this exploit.

[dylanstrategie]

Even then, this would probably be extremely unfair. I have seen Marines unload at Xenos stuck behind girders countless times

I think the impact of spit cornershooting, even just regarding nests, is blown out of proportions. If this didn't exist, the Spitter would just open the nest, and in a split second spit and then tackle you, which has a very large chance of knocking you flat. If it doesn't work, it can keep spamming both until it does

I think the main problem concerning xenos use of corner shooting is that NO marines EVER have a way of seeing through walls, while ALL xenos can ALWAYS see through walls. While yes, marines "can" use corner shooting, it's certainly not comparable to the abusive tactics xenos use to exploit it, paticularly against completely unarmed captures that already have minimal chances of escaping, and now have literally zero because they have no way of countering this exploit.

Girders

[Doc]

In my experiences, using corner shooting on girders is already considered powergaming by staff. In that case, this has to be clarified in the rules, either whether it's allowed or not, because administration has conflicting opinions.

[Feweh]

Uh....

Marines abuse this WAYYYYY more.

[completelynewguy]

Only one form of a workaround is to somehow make it possible to see out of corners in a Checkerboard cell. Well, corners in general.

[DeadLantern]

Uh....

Marines abuse this WAYYYYY more.

Then get rid corner shooting for both teams!

[TopHatPenguin]

I wouldn't be opposed to corner shooting being completely removed and would gladly welcome it, however if we are keeping it then as a marine you need to be able to see through the resin doors at a diagonal angle because honestly having a sentinel/spitter corner shoot you through resin goop without actually being able to either fire back or actually see them to begin with is damn terrible, also IMO this is as bad as resin cuffs as it has the exact same effect resin cuffs did, Keeping a marine in the nest permanently.(Honestly if the dev chaps or Apop want perma-nesting then please just add perma-nesting instead of a half baked potato which gives the same outcome as Perma-nesting (If an alien is watching which 99.9% of the time they are))
Just to quickly add something, at least as a xeno you can expect and see the shooter who is firing through girders or whatever so you have a chance to move out of the way or go around that area, unlike firing through resin goop into a 1 tile room, where there is no room for dodging and generally not enough time to pull out a knife let alone a gun.


So overall if we're keeping corner shooting I believe it requires a rework so it doesn't feel like a bug/gimmick.If we are fully removing corner shooting, Great!

[Shyguychizzy]

EDIT: It appears for Example 1 is the same photo as Example 2, I dun goofed and made it the image as Example 2 link. Here is Example 1: https://gyazo.com/5524b848013aa88428ab925bfdc1e009

[McRipfist]

As already pointed out we can use this feature as well. I'd rather the bastards not be allowed to stand inside resin doors and spitter-spam four nested marines at their leisure.
-1

[Stingray]

I haven't personally seen marines abuse it much, but I obviously cannot see all marines at all times and since staff claim it's a thing, it most likely is. The ability to shoot through corners is a feature and this seems to be an unfortunate side effect. The difference between marines abusing it and xenos abusing it though, is that marines can't help being dragged into the four-door nest, whereas xenos can see these traps and avoid them.

The only situation I can think of where xenos can be the victim of this unless they're being incredibly stupid is when boarding the Sulaco, though the Sulaco walls should still be able to cover from direct bullet fire until acid melts said girders.
I think a rule against this would certainly help and even if all this does is cause the sentinels to have to tackle the marine twice every two minutes, it's still a lot more fair than this.
+1

[Doc]

This isn't meant to be particularly accusatory, but I can't really think of a way to word it otherwise- I'll just note that this is an observation of what's been said here and in previous talks about corner shooting. It doesn't really seem like this is a 'feature' so much as a bug that has been labelled as such to avoid fixing it. Personally, I support it's complete removal over anything else, but I believe I've heard that it is apparently a very complicated issue to deal with and can't simply be fixed with a couple minutes of editing. With that in mind, I think a temporary fix would be in order- this is pretty clearly a style of interacting with game systems with the aim of maximizing progress towards a specific goal to the exclusion of other considerations such as storytelling, in this case the physical impossibility of shooting through a wall, and as such should probably be dealt with as powergaming. I don't think anyone expects staff to catch every incident of this ever and make sure it never happens again as soon as it becomes a rule, but I definitely think it's expected that it's actually considered under the rule, as it should be, and dealt with properly when it's brought to the staffs attention.

Basically, +1.

[forwardslashN]

It is impossible to enforce consistently. Until the projectile system is updated, this is not a bug nor is it an exploit.