Jobban Appeal: BuxRagin

[BuxRagin]

Your Byond ID: BuxRagin

Character Name: Sawyer Ellis

Type Of Ban (Job-ban (include the job), Timed Ban, Permaban):

Banned from Commander, Executive Officer, Staff Officer, Pilot Officer, Tank Crewman, Military Police, Corporate Liaison, Requisitions Officer, Chief Engineer, Chief Medical Officer, Chief MP

Admin who banned you (if known):

Not Known

Total Ban Duration:

Permanent

Remaining Duration:

Infinite

What other servers do you play on?:

I used to play on Goonstation for a long time, but I quit SS13 for years.

Are you now or have you been banned on any servers? Which ones?:

Not that I can recall, no.

Reason for ban (If you have a Permaban, it should be the EXACT MESSAGE YOU GET WHEN YOU LOGIN with the Error code that looks like this: X##XXX##. If you do not provide this EXACTLY you can't be unbanned):

"As a Staff Officer went SSD less than two minutes into the round. | Fri, July 13th of 2018" - this was apparently the reason given in the note that was left. I spoke to Omicega about this (who was awesome and very helpful).

Link to previous appeals for the same ban (if applicable):

N/a

Your appeal, including evidence (screenshots, etc):

I can only really offer an explanation, because their is no validity to any argument that ends with me not breaking an obvious rules. In essence, I made a mistake out of ignorance and inattention to detail which ended in me believing my actions were within the rules of the CM server.

After a few days of just playing standard marine and xeno I tried my hand at the SO role, and I enjoyed it. I was surprised to get the role twice in a row with the preference set to low, which is now after playing more not so surprising to me. In any event, over a few rounds of the role over a night and an afternoon I enjoyed it. However, on Friday afternoon I readied up for a round and received the role again. I started to gather some cigarettes and stuff for the round, but then started to lose interest in playing the role that round. In my ignorance and inattention to detail I thought that it was acceptable for me to simply log out of the role when a work task cropped up unexpectedly and provided a convenient excuse to leave the round.

Again, I don't have any kind of argument that I didn't break the rule. I do however offer my contrition on the subject and acknowledge being obviously wrong, I understand the rule and have gone back and reviewed all of the rules in general just to be safe moving forward. Additionally, I hope this alone can be used as grounds for a reconsideration of my ban length. Whatever decision is made, I appreciate the time taken by Omicega and another admin (whom I can't recall the name of right now) that originally informed me it was indeed a ban, and by anyone else that reads or considers this.

Sorry that this has gone on a bit long, I tend to get pretty verbose when I'm trying to explain myself.

[Sir Lordington]

Notes:

► Show Spoiler

Banned from Commander, Executive Officer, Staff Officer, Pilot Officer, Tank Crewman, Military Police, Corporate Liaison, Requisitions Officer, Chief Engineer, Chief Medical Officer, Chief MP - As a Staff Officer went SSD less than two minutes into the round. | Fri, July 13th of 2018

Warned for using netspeak | Fri, July 13th of 2018

That seems quite harsh for your first SSD offence so this should probably be lifted. Just make sure to cryo yourself or ahelp next time.

[BuxRagin]

Yeah, Omicega explained the rule really well to me so now I'm 100% on it - and frankly it's kind of silly how easily I could have avoided this entirely, thus saving everyone's time.

By typing a single sentence into ahelp @@.

[Omicega]

I was surprised to see a full command jobban for a first disconnect like this. I think it's far too harsh for so simple a rule.

+1 for a total unban.

[TexasTwoStep]

Quite harsh? I don't think so.

Taking up a Staff-Officer Slot at round-start and possibly ruining someone else's RNG by even joining the round = direct impact on other players.

The point of a full-command job-ban is to ensure players who are prone to SSD like this won't do it again in another command-slot and to have them actually make an account and appeal the ban - something that is easily done.

+1, as the Signature for the CJB.

[BuxRagin]

I'm confused. Are you saying it's not harsh because it's intentionally so harsh that it forces people to use the forums?

Not that my opinion is being solicited, but I think permanently banning someone for a single instance of rule breaking and then justifying it as "we made sure the rule wasn't broken again" is kind of odd. I had no idea what the rule I was banned for even was until I did this. How is that a deterrent?

I could have, if I was the SSD prone player you're saying I am, just started SSDing in regular roles and got perma server banned and still not known why exactly.

[BuxRagin]

As an aside, I am also looking around on the forums and the appeals. I am not seeing a large number of people appealing bans such as mine. That is a "CJB" for single SSD. Out of curiosity, are there any such appeals you can think of Texas?

To put it another way: why was I apparently singled out for use of this deterrent if it's such an obvious and effective one?

[TexasTwoStep]

Yeah...Bud, I think you're looking into something that doesn't exist - that is you being 'singled' out.

This is a deterrent to players wanting to play the position of Command.

Why would I JUST ban you from Staff Officer? What stops you from doing this again as the XO - for example: One of the primary command positions that you just wasted time of the entire playerbase by going SSD In - then again, ruined RNG for other players.

It is MY Deterrent and I passed my judgement - that is to get you to make a forum account and appeal the ban? Absolutely. Because if you cared enough you would take the three minutes to create an account and write why you did what you did - and again, get unbanned.

Have a CM day.

[BuxRagin]

You seem to misunderstand what I am saying entirely. I don't really want to get into a back and forth about it because you seem to be a little defensive and quite frankly a bit condescending.

I'll just say this: you really should read what I said and do so without injecting into it whatever meaning you're reacting in this way to. It's a valid criticism and I think well made.

Have a peachy one yourself.

[Ordukai]

Your notes are clean, this is a well written and seemingly sincere report, and it's only an SSD ban. It think it should be fine to have this lifted.

In response to your questions, I believe tex isn't saying that the punishment isn't harsh, rather that it isn't "Too harsh/Quite harsh", meaning the punishment fits the crime.

I think permanently banning someone for a single instance of rule breaking and then justifying it as "we made sure the rule wasn't broken again" is kind of odd. I had no idea what the rule I was banned for even was until I did this. How is that a deterrent?

• Due to how our database is set up, we don't have the ability to give timed job bans. It's a permanent job ban or no job ban.
• We don't have a way to contact players who have left the server, unless they happen to be on our forums or in our discord (which I assume you weren't)
• Usually, upon discovering the job restriction, players ask staff online and things are explained to them (as happened with you)
• You weren't aware of the rulebreak or the punishment: now you are, thus deterring you from making the same simple mistake in the future (I hope :P)
• When we jobban, we can jobban individual jobs, or a group of them from a predetermined list. It's not a very flexible list: Yes, "All of command" is the next step up from "Just SO", though it is possible to make multiple jobban entries.

By your own argument, being jobbanned from only SO would make you more likely to be unaware of the issue, and thus more likely to re-offend with ANOTHER important role. If you're someone who's at risk of simply going SSD at roundstart, whether it's from ignorance of the rules or some kind of casual inconsideration for the other players, wouldn't it be better to just have you not able to play command (and not make the same, or possibly worse, mistake again) until we get this sorted out? Remember that we can't contact you if you're offline, and we have no way of knowing when you'll get back on again.


I think the ban seems worse to you than it actually is, which is understandable. I don't have a link to similar cases handy, but what Tex did isn't particularly overkill imo. Of course, this isn't a Staff Report, this is a ban appeal. A very simple, straightforward ban appeal, which will be easy to get removed. Don't let the "permanent" word or the number of roles banned worry you, just know to contact staff if you need to leave immediately in the future.

[BuxRagin]

Thank a lot for your reply, and I really appreciate the explanation to my questions and the fact that it isn't entirely necessary or appropriate for this particular thread - also that you read them as I meant them.

So to respond just briefly to your list; your database explanation makes sense, your inability to easily contact me afterward because of my leaving makes sense to a point, and your explanation about not doing just SO makes sense (although to be clear I didn't mean to imply that would be a good idea). It also sounds a hell of a lot less manipulative and condescending than wanting to punish people for simple mistakes and wanting to force them to make forum accounts.

The thrust of my criticism is more based around what you said in your third point. To be clear, when I FIRST discovered the restriction and asked a staff member through the game (I can't remember who) - I was told the only way to get any kind of explanation was a forum account. I'm sure if you check my history of admin communication you'll be able to verify that if you want. So at that point it still wasn't a deterrent. I had to ask a second staff member to get a more clear response about what was going on. Hearing "go to the forums and appeal" with no further explanation doesn't sound good - hearing (as Omicega explained) go to the forums and it will likely be a formality and also here is why it happened is a lot clearer and an actual deterrent, and as a side note, you'll find that I didn't SSD in any other round before or after the ban. It was an obvious mistake, not a pattern.

Anyway, It seems like this is already by itself a way around the not knowing when I will be online. That won't matter, I will contact you, I've obviously been punished for something. A number of extra steps are being added it seems to me. I need to make an account, admins need to get online see look into and respond to my post, apparently voting needs to happen. It's a pretty involved formality.

As this is like you said a straight forward ban appeal, it could be a lot more straight forward than it ended up being for everyone involved. The ban doesn't seem worse to me than it actually is it just seemed, and was presented by Tex at first read of what he said, predicated on a condescending and oddly manipulative premise. I still think that A) a clear explanation of what happened and why the first time I contacted staff would have been nice and B) don't see why the forum must even be involved.

I mean, to be quite honest, I only kept posting because Tex comes off really poorly in his replies here. He pretty obviously didn't read what I said, and just framed everything in a really manipulative condescending way. Saying "our database doesn't allow timed bans" makes more sense than "we did it as a deterrent to you playing command".

[TexasTwoStep]

I mean...

There are lot's of reasons why banning is done this way - Ordukai summed it up pretty well.

This is the Internet and i'm writing a response in text - so sometimes things aren't what they perceived to be. You believing I was coming off as defensive and poorly was really just factual....Either way those are both opinions - and are subject to interpretation.

I applied the ban.

It was because due in part of limitations - the end goal is the same: You appeal the ban if you want to play Command Positions and read-the-rules before doing so.

Ignorance isn't a excuse is a catch-phrase in CM Rule's and it's meant. You SSD'd as a Staff-Officer at round-start and ruined RNG for player's who might've wanted to play that role for the round.

Unfortuantely due to the workload Managers have come-under with recent summer attraction - yes, it does seem more of a long-term formality then the intention of player-involvement in the community and baseline reading the rules. That is unfortunate, but the circumstances. I can understand your frustrated but again I reiterate: A quick reading of the rules would've prevented this. You said yourself: "Again, I don't have any kind of argument that I didn't break the rule. I do however offer my contrition on the subject and acknowledge being obviously wrong, I understand the rule and have gone back and reviewed all of the rules in general just to be safe moving forward" So, we're not arguing - if you wanted answers, I hope I was more helpful then my response last time - but there isn't much to add. You understand what you did wrong and appealed it and I was happy to +1 the appeal.

I meant when I said: Have a CM day, literally: You will discover what it means to have a CM day in due-time.

Have a CM Day.

[Ordukai]

As far as I'm aware, we don't have a system in place where the forum would not be involved for resolving a job ban, whether it was just for SO or for all of command. With this jobban, there isn't that much to look into or type up (well, aside from having to address your concerns :P). I'm sorry it got so confusing, I'll PM that first staff member and mention what happened. Though, reading through your conversation, it seems like you didn't ask any follow-up questions the first time around, so that may have been why they left it as it was.

Admins get on the forum all the time, it's part of our job description, so don't worry about that. There has been some discussion about a different kind of procedure for these situations, hopefully at some point in the future it'll be more convenient.

[BuxRagin]

I mean...

There are lot's of reasons why banning is done this way - Ordukai summed it up pretty well.

This is the Internet and i'm writing a response in text - so sometimes things aren't what they perceived to be. You believing I was coming off as defensive and poorly was really just factual....Either way those are both opinions - and are subject to interpretation.

I applied the ban.

It was because due in part of limitations - the end goal is the same: You appeal the ban if you want to play Command Positions and read-the-rules before doing so.

Ignorance isn't a excuse is a catch-phrase in CM Rule's and it's meant. You SSD'd as a Staff-Officer at round-start and ruined RNG for player's who might've wanted to play that role for the round.

Unfortuantely due to the workload Managers have come-under with recent summer attraction - yes, it does seem more of a long-term formality then the intention of player-involvement in the community and baseline reading the rules. That is unfortunate, but the circumstances. I can understand your frustrated but again I reiterate: A quick reading of the rules would've prevented this. You said yourself: "Again, I don't have any kind of argument that I didn't break the rule. I do however offer my contrition on the subject and acknowledge being obviously wrong, I understand the rule and have gone back and reviewed all of the rules in general just to be safe moving forward" So, we're not arguing - if you wanted answers, I hope I was more helpful then my response last time - but there isn't much to add. You understand what you did wrong and appealed it and I was happy to +1 the appeal.

I meant when I said: Have a CM day, literally: You will discover what it means to have a CM day in due-time.

Have a CM Day.

If you can honestly read this thing and say to yourself "You know what? I come off really good here" then it's very apparent our perceptions of reality are deeply different.

You repeat things you quote me saying, sign off with a weird cryptic in-joke you know I don't get, you defend coming off poorly as just being factual which I don't think I've heard since highschool, you repeat yourself as if I didn't understand what you clearly said (and even synthesize the information with what I've said) you try to finish it off with "I hope I was more helpful" then can't resist but throwing another dig - you're just not coming off the way I think you believe you are - certainly not to me in any regard. It's really quite strange. I mean, for Christ sake, you quite literally didn't even read what I asked you and proceeded to condescend to me with "Bud". I'm not sure how that reads as anything but condescending to you.

You just seem also like you don't have a personality type that can handle other people's contrition very well. You seem like the type of person that has to toss little digs at people, like you insist on doing by reminding me I'm not part of your clique by using a persistent in-joke. Anyway, like I said, I didn't even want to get into a big back and forth. And especially not with someone as defensive as you are about something that is allegedly so routine.

Thanks for the explanation Ordukai. And I'm sorry if I've come off as rude or anything, I think me and Tex just don't have compatible ways of communicating.

[x31stOverlord]

Going to slide in here. I see no reason to keep the ban in place and support it being lifted.

Onto the second point. This is an appeal, not a debate or discussion. If you have issue with how a member of staff has dealt with a situation please make a staff report. (Also on these forums) through which the situation will be investigated by the heads.

[BuxRagin]

I don't really have a staff complaint, like I said in my last reply, I just don't think Tex is coming off how he thinks he is and it's the main reason I'm saying anything at all.

And I'm sorry if I'm editorializing. If that's a directive to shut up I can do that.

[Tharinoma]

Appeals are not the place to discuss moderating procedures, please. Keep it factual and to the point, we need to read through all of these.

Yes +1

[BuxRagin]

Is there any indication of how much longer this formality is going to last? So far I've been banned for a week for a single SSD. It honeslty seems absurdist. Last night I got QC OD'd by a squad medic because I didn't do what he told me and I was trying to RP a drunk soldier. He received zero punishment. I SSD a single solitary time, apologize for it, and post on these forums in an absurdist exercise of contrition and I am STILL banned. The punishment system here is absolutely ridiculous.

My ban is being justified because I 'ruined someone's RNG' but I took not direct malicious action. Direct malicious action was taken against me and the perpetrator, despite being reported immediately and admitting he did it, received zero ban whatsoever. How is this fair distribution of punishment?

[Solarmare]

At this point you're the one providing reason not to lift this ban, you've made a thread just to complain about a player not being punished on another issue and so long as you want to complain about the ban currently on you it'll likely remain in place.

[BuxRagin]

If that's the case, then you can just consider my appeal withdrawn. If pointing out inconsistent punishment is seen as something wrong I am doing, this isn't the type of place that is going to be very fun to participate in as someone who is generally anti-clique. I really have spent far too much time being threatened by video game moderators and admins for anyone's good, much less the good of the threatening moderators and admins.

You guys can go out of this thread, to discord or wherever you talk, and discuss how obviously I am just so entitled for wanting to be unbanned. The simple fact of the matter is, however, that direct malice and aggression is being punished considerably less severely on this server than a simple mistake that was apologized for as soon as it was brought to my attention, which I offered clearly stated contrition for.

If direct malice and aggression is, in the eyes of staff here, this far less severe than a simple mistake it's pretty clear this simply isn't the place for a person who places a high premium on fairness. The hilarity of you guys putting forward "If you dare to complain about it, we will never lift it" while also saying "We just wanted you to come here and acknowledge the rules" is one of the clearest signs of organizational discord I've ever seen.

[Emeraldblood]

While Texas had the right judgment here, we just don't do department bans for normal SSD because life can happen sometimes and department bans are usually saved for more serious punishments. Should you just realize you don't like a certain role, you can just log off and possibly take that job-ban for a role you may not want to play anymore, rather than suffer a whole department ban over one role. That said, if you were to get a lot of SSD bans, you could receive a Command department ban due to these roles being important to the round. The ban itself would be reduced to just SO and from there, given you've said you're aware of the SSD protocols now (ahelp/cryo), the SO part would be lifted as well; as such, the whole ban is lifted. In the future, don't go around complaining about the ban in general chat and such, as it only works against you. We have appeals for a reason.

Resolved - Ban has been lifted; don't go looking for trouble in the future regarding things you don't agree with personally.