Hunt689 Permaban

[Mr_Richards_]

Your Byond ID: Hunt689

Character Name: Jack Richards

Type Of Ban (Job-ban (include the job), Timed Ban, Permaban): Permaban

Admin who banned you (if known): Taketheshot56

Total Ban Duration: Permaban

Remaining Duration: N/A

What other servers do you play on? Paradise Station

Are you now or have you been banned on any servers? Which ones? Nope

Reason for ban (If you have a Permaban, it should be the EXACT MESSAGE YOU GET WHEN YOU LOGIN with the Error code that looks like this: X##XXX##. If you do not provide this EXACTLY you can't be unbanned):

"Banned for ERP: Wrote several explicit notes as a doctor with his exscuse being "I see people do worse stuff" Completely unaccpetable. Filing for Perma"

Link to previous appeals for the same ban (if applicable): N/A

Your appeal, including evidence (screenshots, etc):


------------------------------
I'd like to start off by clarifying what I said when I stated "I see people do worse stuff." I was trying to point out the inconsistency in punishment handed out towards people that abuse the rules on the server. I've heard people make Nazi jokes, homophobic jokes, racist jokes, calling people 'retarded', and blatant bullying in OOC and yet not a single admin blinks an eye (Not trying to insult admins just stating an observation which was put into my line of thinking). These situations are entirely more severe than my current predicament which is why I was dumbfounded when I didn't get a warning or message beforehand considering these aforementioned incidents were given a pass. My rationale was here are these people who said horrible things and they didn't get punished (Not saying I'd dare stoop to that level), so I made a sexually explicit joke on a few notes which really only included one naughty word in each which I thought were far more tame compared to these other issues. Not to mention, in my own experience in previous roleplay servers, ERP tended to lean towards sexual abuse, bullying, mentions of rape, or anything in-between. Which what I said didn't fit whatsoever into my own mental ERP rules.

I said on these notes some absurd 'meme' joke basically to try to lighten the mood. Being a doctor round after round can become mundane so, in my opinion, you must try and find pleasures in small things (I was a doctor sport enthusiast the previous round) and attempt to bring flavor to the role. I was trying to do something similar to my previous round (flavor wise) but clearly I drastically missed the mark. Once again, I didn't realize how 'focused' the ERP rule was down to even basic words being used. This is what threw me off when I stated previously that I've heard much worse and suspected what I wrote was in no way in the vicinity of being bullying, toxic community player, or mean spirited but rather a dumb joke.

I find that what makes SS13 such a great game is not the combat, but the experiences or enjoyment you can pull outside of the base raw tactics of CM. I was hoping to give the MP's a sort of fun task to try and hunt down the person who were writing these notes (This is without knowing the severity of what I was saying) and also give a quick laugh to those that would read the note (Yes it was a idiotic/childness joke but sometimes our immaturity gets the best of us). Anything to add a bit of difference from round to round and make the round you're in unique.

I'd like to also state that there were no warnings given out for the jokes written on the pieces of paper. If given a warning I would've stopped immediately knowing that the ERP rules were that severely administered and fixated.

-- If anything I thought my joke fell more into the 'Marine Law' side of the rule rather than going into some absurd sexual misconduct among other players. It was a one line joke, nothing more, with its only intention to bring some new flavor to my job and enjoyment to people around me. Nothing meant to cause ill-will OOC to the players around me. -- [Pre/Prior reasoning]
---------------------------------------

Now I'd like to firmly state that I'm not trying to justify my actions, only trying to put my side into perspective. I was tired (it was late in my timezone) and I wasn't thinking clearly (tough day of OOC work).

I fully understand what I did was rule-breaking, immature, and not CM material, and would never, ever, attempt to make any sexually explicit (or 18+) jokes again. I truly hope my actions can be forgiven and allowed a second chance that wouldn't be taken for granted.

Thanks,
Hunt689

[NGGJamie]

First off, here is this player's note:

► Show Spoiler

Banned by x|Duration: 10080 minutes|Reason: Banned for ERP: Wrote several explicit notes as a doctor with his exscuse being ";I see people do worse stuff"; Completely unaccpetable. Filing for Perma.
by x (x) on Thu, November 8th of 2018

And the perma request may be found here: viewtopic.php?f=102&t=19194

All right, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of exactly why our ERP/18+ rule exists. While the game environment and player experience are part of the reason for the rule being there, it isn't actually why we enforce it so strictly. We enforce this rule very harshly because we are a game server based out of the United States, and SS13 is a game that has a large volume of underage kids who play it. Because of this, we do our best to foster an environment that complies with the Child Online Protection Act, which is a law that serves to protect children from primarily sexually explicit, or pornographic material. In order to crack down on this as best we can, we act very swiftly on this sort of behavior in order to comply as much as we can, within due reason.

For very minor infractions, if you're lucky, you could get let off with a 7-day ban. This is more serious than that. Although you could be correct in saying that other people say worse things, often times staff do jump on those incidents. However, we attempt to make the dealings with such incidents discrete so as to not interrupt flow, or put on such a show for the public on the server. If we find out someone is throwing around racial slurs, they will often receive a very harsh warning on the first instance, and a ban on each following instance. As for other instances of what you mention, it highly depends on the context of the situation, so I can't very well comment on them in a broad sense without a specific situation in front of me with full context. With regard to OOC bullying, it generally isn't necessary or wanted for us to police every negative comment someone throws at someone else. At the end of the day, this is the internet. There are definitely times when lines are crossed and we will tell people to cool down when they are, but that isn't often the case. In other instances, it's best to keep in mind that despite the size of our community, a lot of players here are very tight-knit. Thus, a lot of bullying or insulting that happens is generally harmless banter. But again, all of this is very subjective to who is speaking to whom, and what is being said.

In any case, I will leave judgement on your intent to my Management staff, as this is mostly their territory. Though, I would advise you not to get your hopes up entirely too high. Perma appeals aren't oft cleared for ERP related incidents in particular. But if you do manage to get let off the hook, assume that it will not happen a second time, because you would already be in a very lucky position.

[Mr_Richards_]

First off, here is this player's note:

► Show Spoiler

Banned by x|Duration: 10080 minutes|Reason: Banned for ERP: Wrote several explicit notes as a doctor with his exscuse being ";I see people do worse stuff"; Completely unaccpetable. Filing for Perma.
by x (x) on Thu, November 8th of 2018

And the perma request may be found here: viewtopic.php?f=102&t=19194

All right, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of exactly why our ERP/18+ rule exists. While the game environment and player experience are part of the reason for the rule being there, it isn't actually why we enforce it so strictly. We enforce this rule very harshly because we are a game server based out of the United States, and SS13 is a game that has a large volume of underage kids who play it. Because of this, we do our best to foster an environment that complies with the Child Online Protection Act, which is a law that serves to protect children from primarily sexually explicit, or pornographic material. In order to crack down on this as best we can, we act very swiftly on this sort of behavior in order to comply as much as we can, within due reason.

For very minor infractions, if you're lucky, you could get let off with a 7-day ban. This is more serious than that. Although you could be correct in saying that other people say worse things, often times staff do jump on those incidents. However, we attempt to make the dealings with such incidents discrete so as to not interrupt flow, or put on such a show for the public on the server. If we find out someone is throwing around racial slurs, they will often receive a very harsh warning on the first instance, and a ban on each following instance. As for other instances of what you mention, it highly depends on the context of the situation, so I can't very well comment on them in a broad sense without a specific situation in front of me with full context. With regard to OOC bullying, it generally isn't necessary or wanted for us to police every negative comment someone throws at someone else. At the end of the day, this is the internet. There are definitely times when lines are crossed and we will tell people to cool down when they are, but that isn't often the case. In other instances, it's best to keep in mind that despite the size of our community, a lot of players here are very tight-knit. Thus, a lot of bullying or insulting that happens is generally harmless banter. But again, all of this is very subjective to who is speaking to whom, and what is being said.

In any case, I will leave judgement on your intent to my Management staff, as this is mostly their territory. Though, I would advise you not to get your hopes up entirely too high. Perma appeals aren't oft cleared for ERP related incidents in particular. But if you do manage to get let off the hook, assume that it will not happen a second time, because you would already be in a very lucky position.

Alright so let's get something straight. You mentioned COPA or 'Child Online Protection Act' which came into effect in 1998 and as it states in the link you posted "The law, however, never took effect, as three separate rounds of litigation led to a permanent injunction against the law in 2009." Now of course it couldn't be COPPA or Child's Online Privacy Protection Act as it applies to strictly commerce and online credit card usage. And it couldn't be CIPA or Children's Internet Protection Act either as it only applies to schools and libraries for discount rates. So now the conclusion of this story is not that you're 'attempting' to follow vague online litigation but rather you want a PG community as you stated. And if that's the case I even find that absurd. You built a online game based off a R-rated horror movie that involves murder, mutilation, blood, gore, profanity, and pronographic images. Even in game, you as a player are going in round after round using various guns to kill aliens and getting mutilated, chest-bursted, swore at, etc, in the process. Hell, you even have a smoke machine in the beginning of the round that says "Smoke a lucky, it's good for you." You also have people OD on oxycodone for enjoyment every few rounds (How many people are suffering from the opioid crisis in the US right now?). There is absolutely no way a game like this would be allowed in any school under any circumstances. Also, how do you even know the demographic of your game? Where are your statistics on the overall age of players? Anyhow, let's not bullshit each other and say that you're attempting to pamper kids and make a safe community because the game, the lore, and the entire environment contradicts everything you state.

"For very minor infractions, if you're lucky, you could get let off with a 7-day ban. This is more serious than that."

And you speak of me as some sexual deviant because I wrote a one-lined note that said "Your mom gay" or "Your dad gay." You act as if though I'm going to abuse kids and damage them permanently because of what I said. It was a one line stupid joke. I cannot express that enough. How could a one line note be that dangerous to kids when what I mentioned is far, far worse than anything I did.

"Although you could be correct in saying that other people say worse things, often times staff do jump on those incidents. However, we attempt to make the dealings with such incidents discrete so as to not interrupt flow, or put on such a show for the public on the server. If we find out someone is throwing around racial slurs, they will often receive a very harsh warning on the first instance, and a ban on each following instance."

Here you even state yourself that not everything is filtered. So you have people making anti-semitic, homophobic, retard jokes and they aren't filtered. These kids, who you speak as being a major part of the demographics, has seen far, far worse than anything I've stated.

"With regard to OOC bullying, it generally isn't necessary or wanted for us to police every negative comment someone throws at someone else."

Bullying is far more unhealthy in so many circumstances than other indirect words. How many people in the US have been harmed by bullying over someone saying a sexual word. This is nonsense.

"At the end of the day, this is the internet."

I couldn't agree more. This is the internet. That means that you can't censor every little tiny word that may be seen as harmful or disastful because that's something you must get used to using the internet. The only real threats should be repeat offenders who time and time again try to bring up this harmful content and instill it in a child.

"In other instances, it's best to keep in mind that despite the size of our community, a lot of players here are very tight-knit. Thus, a lot of bullying or insulting that happens is generally harmless banter."

That's exactly what I did, harmless banter. What harm did I do to a child by what I said? Please give me evidence showing that a single offense of what I said is indeed detrimental to a child's development because I find that pure insanity.

-------------------------

I'd like to state for the record that I believe attempting to coddle a kid from every perceived danger (This does not include sexual predators) on the internet is dangerous to their health. A child needs to learn all the grimy pieces of the world and adapt it into their persona rather than lie to them and have them grow up the hard way. Yet aside from that point, I'm trying to point out the very damning inconsistencies in your rule enforcement and ulterior motive in trying to give kids a 'safe' environment.

I think in a case like this, being a realist is the best approach and ask, what I said, truly verbatim; Is it indeed toxic or damaging towards the community as a whole.

I'd like to once again reiterate that what I said was obviously a dumb stupid 'meme' joke which I know can break immersion in some instances (Although I wouldn't consider it metagaming considering how advanced of a society we're in and how much information would be spread throughout. Not every person IRL is either a mindless marine robot who can't crack wise or a diligent doctor who can't have downtime to have simple enjoyments. In many instances, in my own opinion, I can find it more immersing). Now knowing what the administrative team wants from the community, where as before there was absolutely no clear picture, I now understand what they deem to be inappropriate. Which is why I believe instant permabanning doesn't serve a very good purpose in most circumstances unless the player is extremely toxic. That aside once again. I understand.

[Mizari]

This ban is far too recent and I honestly don't see any remorse in your actions. You did break the rule and a pretty serious one at that. In this instance I'm having to -1 this as its far too recent. If this gets denied, I'd wait a few months at least.

[Mr_Richards_]

This ban is far too recent and I honestly don't see any remorse in your actions. You did break the rule and a pretty serious one at that. In this instance I'm having to -1 this as its far too recent. If this gets denied, I'd wait a few months at least.

This is easily one of the most non-answers I've seen. You didn't address anything I said but was looking directly for 'remorse'? I've already stated I now know what the rule means and severely it's punished and that I wouldn't reoffend. But that doesn't mean I can't: call a rule into question when I think one is taken out of proportion, not have to treat every admin with a severe god-complex, and beg for forgiveness like some sort of prisoner of war. I'm trying to be rational and give a valid response. Expecting anything else from someone is just absurd.

"I honestly don't see any remorse in your actions."

So what kind of remorse do you typically expect from someone? Some bullshit response of "Oh i'm sooooo sorry, please unban me, please" a hundred times? I'm giving a realistic defense and you're not giving a realistic answer.

"In this instance I'm having to -1 this as its far too recent."

So you want people to sit in some sort of guilty 'limbo' where they're unable to defend themselves and should be punished even if they vindicate themselves. This sounds like some dystopian society idea.

"You did break the rule and a pretty serious one at that."

I genuinely think you didn't read anything of what I said.
Nothing about breaking apart the reasons for the actual rule in question or how minor of a part I even had with that rule offense. You only read what the admin said and the offense and just -1 because I wasn't on my knees begging for forgiveness, which, in my opinion, I already did too much of.

What I find genuinely laughable are the communities that allow an Admin/mod to come in and have a point system for an appeal. You begin to create an Admin team that is a something reminiscent to that of the Soviet Union where the heads of state are all pals and those that are cast out are the ones that do not fit into the close minded group thinking.

Let me ask you something, have you ever gone against any other Administrators or Moderators opinions on an appeal? Or do you close your ears and pat your admin buddies on the back and give them a thumbs up, irrespective of any actual logical decision making.

Now if you call this hostility again (Which I'm absolutely not trying to be hostile but you're taking me out of context) and say I'm not being 'remorseful', you'll only prove my point further.

[420MYK]

You're focusing too much on the protection of youth side of this. At the end of the day aside from the fact that that one line is just nasty the ERP 18+ rules are there for a reason beyond just children i'm sure. We play CM to shoot benos and slash faces open. Not get hot and heavy and have some slappy hand time over crass remarks. If you had just written it once that probably would have been a different matter but as it stands you made SIX copies that i can see in the report notes. Now i aint saying you were planning on distributing them but it sure as hell seems it.

That being said assuming that this is the only note on you I personally don't believe in perma'ing for a first offence unless its super griefing or actual rape, even for ERP which i'd normally be pretty rough against. Ill stay NEUTRAL as opposed to throwing another -1. But in the unlikely event your perma gets lifted dont make this mistake again.

[Frans_Feiffer]

This is easily one of the most non-answers I've seen. You didn't address anything I said but was looking directly for 'remorse'? I've already stated I now know what the rule means and severely it's punished and that I wouldn't reoffend. But that doesn't mean I can't: call a rule into question when I think one is taken out of proportion, not have to treat every admin with a severe god-complex, and beg for forgiveness like some sort of prisoner of war. I'm trying to be rational and give a valid response. Expecting anything else from someone is just absurd.

"I honestly don't see any remorse in your actions."

So what kind of remorse do you typically expect from someone? Some bullshit response of "Oh i'm sooooo sorry, please unban me, please" a hundred times? I'm giving a realistic defense and you're not giving a realistic answer.

"You did break the rule and a pretty serious one at that."

I genuinely think you didn't read anything of what I said.
Nothing about breaking apart the reasons for the actual rule in question or how minor of a part I even had with that rule offense. You only read what the admin said and the offense and just -1 because I wasn't on my knees begging for forgiveness, which, in my opinion, I already did too much of.

What genuinely laughable are the communities allow an Admin/mod to come in and have a point system for an appeal. Let me ask you something, have you ever gone against any other Administrators or Moderators opinions on an appeal? Or do you close your ears and pat your admin buddies on the back and give them a thumbs up, irrespective of any actual logical decision making.

Staff Members disagree rather commonly on different topics. We're not a hivemind, just a group of individuals with a common want to keep this server running smoothly for everyone to enjoy. Personally, I agree with what was stated by Jamie, and Mizari. This was too recent and while you may not have had the biggest partaking in it, it's still a rulebreak nonetheless. Heck, i'd be more lenient about this if you were calm and understanding, but when you attack staff, or say we're just a bunch of brown noses is infuriating, and does not help your case at all. we're not asking for you to come to us begging for forgiveness, or to repent your sins, yadda yadda, but we're also not gonna tolerate it when you can't be level-headed and have to resort to attacking our staff because you disagree with them.

As much as I hate to say it, this one's a big -1 from me.

[Mr_Richards_]

Staff Members disagree rather commonly on different topics. We're not a hivemind, just a group of individuals with a common want to keep this server running smoothly for everyone to enjoy. Personally, I agree with what was stated by Jamie, and Mizari. This was too recent and while you may not have had the biggest partaking in it, it's still a rulebreak nonetheless. Heck, i'd be more lenient about this if you were calm and understanding, but when you attack staff, or say we're just a bunch of brown noses is infuriating, and does not help your case at all. we're not asking for you to come to us begging for forgiveness, or to repent your sins, yadda yadda, but we're also not gonna tolerate it when you can't be level-headed and have to resort to attacking our staff because you disagree with them.

As much as I hate to say it, this one's a big -1 from me.

Please tell me how I'm not being understanding? I'm very confused on how you'd like me to word myself that would appear more heartwarming. Because clearly I'm misguided on this aspect. I'm looking for a genuine answer here. Once again. I'll say it a hundred times over. Not trying to be hostile.

Also when it comes to disagreements I'm not talking about simple things. I'm talking disagreements on ban appeals. I've rarely, if ever, seen one post in my entire RP experience of an Admin stepping in with their own beliefs but rather attempt to inflate each others ego, status, and position.

Also I updated my previous post before you made a reply, sorry.

Added:

"This was too recent and while you may not have had the biggest partaking in it, it's still a rulebreak nonetheless."

My main argument also includes why I think perma banning someone without a warning is not a healthy community option and how the ERP rules are a bit too stringent in their current form considering how a major part of the community acts and desires on how the community should be.

Thanks for the comment.

[Mr_Richards_]

You're focusing too much on the protection of youth side of this. At the end of the day aside from the fact that that one line is just nasty the ERP 18+ rules are there for a reason beyond just children i'm sure. We play CM to shoot benos and slash faces open. Not get hot and heavy and have some slappy hand time over crass remarks. If you had just written it once that probably would have been a different matter but as it stands you made SIX copies that i can see in the report notes. Now i aint saying you were planning on distributing them but it sure as hell seems it.

That being said assuming that this is the only note on you I personally don't believe in perma'ing for a first offence unless its super griefing or actual rape, even for ERP which i'd normally be pretty rough against. Ill stay NEUTRAL as opposed to throwing another -1. But in the unlikely event your perma gets lifted dont make this mistake again.

Even with the intention of distributing them I still don't believe I was intentionally being a toxic member of the community. As I said previously, I was trying to bring flavor to the role. Not try and harass or make ill-will OOC comments towards anyone.

Added:

"You're focusing too much on the protection of youth side of this."

I was only bringing up the youth side of the argument because NGGJamie appeared to be making a big deal about that part of the community; even so to include the COPA in her main argument.

Thanks for the comment.

[Frans_Feiffer]

Nothing about breaking apart the reasons for the actual rule in question or how minor of a part I even had with that rule offense. You only read what the admin said and the offense and just -1 because I wasn't on my knees begging for forgiveness, which, in my opinion, I already did too much of.

What I find genuinely laughable are the communities that allow an Admin/mod to come in and have a point system for an appeal. You begin to create an Admin team that is a something reminiscent to that of the Soviet Union where the heads of state are all pals and those that are cast out are the ones that do not fit into the close minded group thinking.

Let me ask you something, have you ever gone against any other Administrators or Moderators opinions on an appeal? Or do you close your ears and pat your admin buddies on the back and give them a thumbs up, irrespective of any actual logical decision making.

You compared us to the Soviet Union, which is bad on it's own, called us brown noses, and specifically called Mizari out on the matter when a reasonable argument was brought up (not to mention when Jamie also brought up their points). That's pretty hostile in my opinion. You may have not meant for that to be the case, but it sure as hell came off as it man.

Apologies if I too seem hostile about this. Just I don't appreciate being compared to the Soviet Union, hah.

[Mr_Richards_]

You compared us to the Soviet Union, which is bad on it's own, called us brown noses, and specifically called Mizari out on the matter when a reasonable argument was brought up (not to mention when Jamie also brought up their points). That's pretty hostile in my opinion. You may have not meant for that to be the case, but it sure as hell came off as it man.

Apologies if I too seem hostile about this. Just I don't appreciate being compared to the Soviet Union, hah.

I'm stating an observation. You're correct that is brazen in a view but sometimes you need to tell hard truths (Davos Seaworth). I could be wrong but from my experience that is the case with many community staff and I believed I was seeing something similar with Mizari. I never called you brown noses, verbatim, that's a bit harsh of a word to use but you need to make sure you keep all biases aside and know when to stick to the core beliefs of what the community needs and respects, not your own relationships with the admins and mods you work with (Which is always going to be a cognitive impartial bias whether you like it or not). And for Mizari's comment I disagree about any reasonable argument. I was trying to point out flaws in the community rules that could maybe help bang out a few issues and all I got in response was essentially a non-answer. It didn't mention anything I talked about which hurt me dearly too.

Thanks for the comment.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

Well this escalated quickly.

Ok you want the non-brown nosing answer
ERP is a zero tolerance policy and honestly had you told taketheshot “crap man it was a meme I screwed up” he may have not filed for a permanent ban

[Mr_Richards_]

Well this escalated quickly.

Ok you want the non-brown nosing answer
ERP is a zero tolerance policy and honestly had you told taketheshot “crap man it was a meme I screwed up” he may have not filed for a permanent ban

He said "Explain this?" Then I talked with him a bit. Not attacking him in anyway. And he said I'm giving you a permaban. Then subsequently kicked me. I recall I said sorry a few times too but he said "This is totally unacceptable. I'm filing for a permaban" and ignored me. There definitely was no wiggle room with him. I guess it might have been better to bring it to light on the forums anyhow.

Thanks for the comment.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

Thanks for the comment.

I think it was more of the fact when you said “I’ve seen Worse”

I’m gonna wait and see if the head staff decides to process your permanent ban or leave it at 7 days.

Regardless I’m staying neutral

[Mr_Richards_]

I think it was more of the fact when you said “I’ve seen Worse”

I’m gonna wait and see if the head staff decides to process your permanent ban or leave it at 7 days.

Regardless I’m staying neutral

I didn't say "I've seen worse" verbatim. That's what taketheshot took from what I was saying I guess. It wasn't what I was trying to say nor was it the only thing I was saying (As I said I was apologizing also).

Thank you very much for the comment.

[NGGJamie]

Please excuse my brevity, I am posting from my phone.

You make a valid point about COPA, we have used that as a part of the justification as that’s what the previous administration cited. We simply haven’t looked further into it. Nobody really wants to see ERP on our server in a way that isn’t fecitious. And playing on the safe side has always been more appealing anyway.

Nevertheless, a ban appeal isn’t the right place to argue a rule’s substance like this. Doing so will get you nowhere, and if anything, you have backed yourself father away from a successful appeal in doing so. You may make a thread in General Discussion if you’d like to strike up a conversation about the matter where public opinion can be put in. However, it will do you no good in this appeal.

Edit: Fixed ambiguous wording

[Mr_Richards_]

Please excuse my brevity, I am posting from my phone.

You make a valid point about COPA, we have used that as a part of the justification as that’s what the previous administration cited. We simply haven’t looked further into it. Nobody really wants to see ERP on our server in a way that isn’t fecitious. And playing on the safe side has always been more appealing anyway.

Nevertheless, a ban appeal isn’t the right place to argue a rule’s substance like this. Doing so will get you nowhere, and if anything, you have backed yourself father away from a successful appeal in doing so. You may make a thread in General Discussion if you’d like to strike up a conversation about the matter where public opinion can be put in. However, it will do you no good in this appeal.

Edit: Fixed ambiguous wording

I don't see why this is a bad place at all. Currently it's being decided whether I'm literally permanently removed from this server or not so I might not even have an option to do so. And I don't know why I would be further away from a successful appeal. I hope it's not because of the many reasons I already previously stated to be the case. (Being critical on a servers rules and or administration is extremely healthy and important to any online community)

Honestly at this point, the least I can do is try to fix this broken rule so that future players aren't given extreme penalties for some basic infraction. It really is a shame that these rules could wholey remove honest players that made a simple mistake and get permanently banned. (Not talking about myself if that gives any comfort)

Thanks for the comment and being truthful about COPA.

[NGGJamie]

I don't see why this is a bad place at all. Currently it's being decided whether I'm literally permanently removed from this server or not so I might not even have an option to do so. And I don't know why I would be further away from a successful appeal. I hope it's not because of the many reasons I already previously stated to be the case. (Being critical on a servers rules and or administration is extremely healthy and important to any online community)

Honestly at this point, the least I can do is try to fix this broken rule so that future players aren't given extreme penalties for some basic infraction. It really is a shame that these rules could wholey remove honest players that made a simple mistake and get permanently banned. (Not talking about myself if that gives any comfort)

Thanks for the comment and being truthful about COPA.

This very much is the wrong place to discuss the merit of the rule as a whole. ERP/18+ is a long standing rule, and I wouldn’t expect it to budge with such frailty. You would need to do it in an open forum where more people can chime in, like a general discussions thread, or a Town Hall. Ban appeals are closed from public comment to keep them as clean as possible, and should stay within the confines of that particular ban. Having an entire discussion to renovate a rule is too large in scope for this sort of thread. Even with a game permanent ban, we don’t ban in other areas unless an infraction is performed there to warrant it. Exceptions happen, but they are rare and just that, exceptions.

I mentioned above that in rare cases, these sort of infractions can indeed only be temporary, 7 day bans. This has the nature of an offense like that. The tipping point seemed to mainly be the sheer number of notes left (seven), along with the content of the latter ones. The latter notes were definitely ban worthy alone because they mentioned specific bodily fluids.

In ban appeals, especially ones related to permanent ban offenses, the opinion of the appellant according to common staff is paramount. If you want to see yourself unbanned, you will want to show a good case to them first. In the future, those staff members will be the primary point of contact for any future misdeeds. Therefore, we give them a reasonable degree of freedom in cases like this to decide if the person in question is someone who they wouldn’t mind dealing with later.

Again, posted off my phone. Please excuse my brevity.

[Mr_Richards_]

This very much is the wrong place to discuss the merit of the rule as a whole. ERP/18+ is a long standing rule, and I wouldn’t expect it to budge with such frailty. You would need to do it in an open forum where more people can chime in, like a general discussions thread, or a Town Hall. Ban appeals are closed from public comment to keep them as clean as possible, and should stay within the confines of that particular ban. Having an entire discussion to renovate a rule is too large in scope for this sort of thread. Even with a game permanent ban, we don’t ban in other areas unless an infraction is performed there to warrant it. Exceptions happen, but they are rare and just that, exceptions.

I mentioned above that in rare cases, these sort of infractions can indeed only be temporary, 7 day bans. This has the nature of an offense like that. The tipping point seemed to mainly be the sheer number of notes left (seven), along with the content of the latter ones. The latter notes were definitely ban worthy alone because they mentioned specific bodily fluids.

In ban appeals, especially ones related to permanent ban offenses, the opinion of the appellant according to common staff is paramount. If you want to see yourself unbanned, you will want to show a good case to them first. In the future, those staff members will be the primary point of contact for any future misdeeds. Therefore, we give them a reasonable degree of freedom in cases like this to decide if the person in question is someone who they wouldn’t mind dealing with later.

Again, posted off my phone. Please excuse my brevity.

This whole defense case that I made needed to involve the rule in question because otherwise I wouldn't have been able to make my defense. My sole defense is based on two pieces of foundations (Not including my apology and what I said on how I was extremely exhausted that day and completely missed the mark) which 1. A permaban without prior warning doesn't serve justice but rather quickly silences people who could be innocent or made a simple mistake and 2. The ERP rule is too stringent in administering. The rule is extremely vague, doesn't elude to very much anything at all, differs in judgement from admin to admin, and appears to be quite disconnected from the rest of the community. It is these foundations of which my defense lie and by telling people they can't call rules into question in like putting tape over their mouths. This doesn't mean I wont bring it to a general discussion (Because I do agree with you about scope but from my perspective you must understand my circumstances) in the future. Not to mention that clarifying it here can be beneficial towards the admins that read it and at least build a picture for a few people reading it.

"I mentioned above that in rare cases, these sort of infractions can indeed only be temporary, 7 day bans. This has the nature of an offense like that. The tipping point seemed to mainly be the sheer number of notes left (seven), along with the content of the latter ones. The latter notes were definitely ban worthy alone because they mentioned specific bodily fluids."

The problem was I had no idea the severity of what I was doing before it was already too late. I was told I was being perma banned before I realized what I was doing was wrong. This is part of my first point.

And to extend on-top of the second point I made previously. The ERP rule is extremely vague in its description. ERP stands for Erotic Role-play. A note with text no matter the word is not roleplay which is why I said earlier that I thought ERP was more inline with sexual abuse, roleplaying rape, etc. Are specific words banned from use within the ERP rule? If so nothing of that sort is stated.

"In ban appeals, especially ones related to permanent ban offenses, the opinion of the appellant according to common staff is paramount. *If you want to see yourself unbanned, you will want to show a good case to them first. In the future, those staff members will be the primary point of contact for any future misdeeds. Therefore, we give them a reasonable degree of freedom in cases like this to decide if the person in question is someone who they wouldn’t mind dealing with later."

*I hope that's what I've been doing this entire discussion and possibly giving out a bit of insight from my perspective and possibly that of other players who run into this issue.

I don't know if I'm misreading what you're saying but I hope you aren't talking about appeasement towards staff to try and sway the most support to my side. Creating a false narrative to just try and get unbanned ASAP is no doubt a much easier route, but a dishonest one at that. Neither should any admin expect or want to be appeased by any player and should be ready to take criticisms at every turn without being offended.

Or perhaps your telling that admins are allowed to judge someone based on a sole action and give out arbitrary punishments based on "whether they want to deal with them later."

I hope I didn't misunderstand what you said and vice versa.

Thanks for the comment.

[taketheshot56]

"Your mom gay" or "Your dad gay."

While that was one of your notes, it was NOT the one you were banned for, the one you were banned for was extremely inappropriate as im sure the manager will see.

[Mr_Richards_]

While that was one of your notes, it was NOT the one you were banned for, the one you were banned for was extremely inappropriate as im sure the manager will see.

I believe we are far, far past this and I'd hope you read the entire discussion before making this input as you'd find the statement you just made is the direct antithesis of everything I've been saying. (Including vagueness of the ERP rule, permaban without warning, and various other topics including reading a discussion before giving input into it.) And you'd also notice that they have read the notes considering what NGGJamie said previously. But I'd hoped you've already read that thoroughly so I don't know why you'd be asking in the first place.

Although frustrating, I appreciate your comment.

[Grubstank]

I don't think a ban appeal is an appropriate place to debate the merits of a rule, but I'll tentatively extend my +1 -- on the condition of zero tolerance for future infractions of the relevant rule.

The player claims they'll be able to adhere to the rules despite their disagreement with them, so let's give them one last chance to prove that.

[Mvp777]

As many others have stated, an appeal is no place to discuss a rule.

This is fairly clear cut in my eyes, you broke a rule that's clearly stated that we have a zero tolerance for. You can sit on this for a month or so. -1

[Mr_Richards_]

I don't think a ban appeal is an appropriate place to debate the merits of a rule, but I'll tentatively extend my +1 -- on the condition of zero tolerance for future infractions of the relevant rule.

The player claims they'll be able to adhere to the rules despite their disagreement with them, so let's give them one last chance to prove that.

A warning is all I wanted really from this post as I could talk about rule semantics issue in another post. Furthermore, as I previously stated, I wouldn't have any problem bringing up this rule issue on the public forum (Although that is only if I'm not permabanned as there wouldn't very well be a point). I'd hope to bring change to this deprecated rule and the egregious act of permabaning without warning.

I appreciate your understanding that a warning would suffice better than an instant permaban which has been one of the main points of my whole argument.

Thank you very much for your comment

[Mr_Richards_]

As many others have stated, an appeal is no place to discuss a rule.

This is fairly clear cut in my eyes, you broke a rule that's clearly stated that we have a zero tolerance for. You can sit on this for a month or so. -1

"As many others have stated, an appeal is no place to discuss a rule."

Although I'd agree with you on that in many circumstances I believe ban appeals should be one of the places where rules could, at the very least, called into question in it's governing and wording. This is integral for my case especially as this is where the disconnect happened between my actions and the wording of the rule. Especially when the only time you really get to discuss the rule mildly in-depth (or have interest in it) is when you're already being permanently removed from the server.

And then you must also ask yourself; what is an appeal for? Just to try and find how many times a person can say 'sorry' in as many different ways possible? Or do you want an authentic defense with authentic emotions calling for authentic change.

I've stated that I now know I broke the rules. I stated that I apologize for my immaturity. I stated that I wouldn't reoffend on such rule with my new understanding (That came from my own permaban appeal). I've stated the clear misunderstanding that occurred. And I stated that I hope to bring about change to this rule on the public forums. There is not very much else I can say *

"This is fairly clear cut in my eyes, you broke a rule that's clearly stated that we have a zero tolerance for."

This wasn't an issue of: A person knows the rules, fully understands them, and decided to whole-heartedly break them at their own volition. But rather a case where: A person knows the rules, understands them to the extent at which they're worded which there isn't plenty of detail, and accidentally broke the rule thinking his actions did NOT pertain to the rules wording. To add to that idea, the rule also doesn't mention different levels to the punishment of the rule where someone who made a minor fraction would get a warning, and something like my understanding of ERP (Role-playing rape) would be something that has much more dire consequences. (although, as I previously stated, unless someone is absolutely trying to cause harm to another member of the community, a warning should be the first and foremost action under most circumstances as 'lack of understanding' is a real and prominent defense, especially with vague rules)

"You can sit on this for a month or so."

I've already stated my position on putting someone in a spot of guilty limbo (5th post in forum I believe). It's an extremely unhealthy community action that doesn't fix nor settle an issue that could of came about due to some simple mistake that needed clarification (And this isn't even the only circumstance). It's better to set the record straight here and now and get to a conclusion rather than sitting on an issue where the 'guilty' person could be vindicated now, today. What if someone was told "Even though your rebuttal evidence is wildly more accurate than the evidence given against you, we're still going to put you in prison for twenty odd years so you can 'sit on it' and then we'll discuss your evidence and your apologies once again after you've been released" (Not directly indicative to my own situation but just trying to put your line of thinking in theory). This, likewise, falls into my previous argument on why discussing rules on a permaban should be allowed in part but creating legitimate change in them should be of a public issue.

* which is why a 'month or so' won't make a difference. This isn't a murder charge. This isn't a plea of insanity. This isn't a case of rehabilitation. This is a game. The only thing that will change in a month will perhaps me saying the same thing in different words.

This issue comes down to a fundamental misinterpretation of the server's administration, policing, and wording of its rules. I'm not sure how many more times I can re-word this.

Thanks for the comment and I hope this adds more clarification for new commenters on this thread.