Survivor Ban on first offense?

BobatNight · Post by **BobatNight** » 18 Dec 2018, 18:47

Your Byond ID: bobatnight

Character Name: Sal 'Spaghetti' Spanelli

Type Of Ban (Job-ban (include the job), Timed Ban, Permaban): Job ban

Admin who banned you (if known):Patton

Total Ban Duration:Pending

Remaining Duration:Pending

What other servers do you play on?Aurora /Bad Deathclaw

Are you now or have you been banned on any servers? Which ones? Nope just here.

Reason for ban (If you have a Permaban, it should be the EXACT MESSAGE YOU GET WHEN YOU LOGIN with the Error code that looks like this: X##XXX##. If you do not provide this EXACTLY you can't be unbanned):Claimed to have organized a raid on marine armory.

Link to previous appeals for the same ban (if applicable):

Your appeal, including evidence (screenshots, etc):
I was banned after a brief conversation with Patton which was to be summed up was not a note since the other player involved lethals and was instead a ban.

As a survivor having boarded the Almayer with another survivor (Can't remember their name), we had decided to re-deploy and were going to steal gear to help our survival chances.
Heading to Engineering I busted my way in and stole a webbing, welding torch and goggles as well as opened the Engineering armory where nothing was taken.
Shortly after the CE arrived and was questioning us when my fellow survivor pulled a gun and threatened to shoot the CE. The CE called for help and was shot at by my fellow survivor, seeing the situation I intervened and instead stunned the CE and zip-tied him before placing him in an unlocked and unwelded locker to prevent pushing as I jumped thru a broken window.
At no time did I use lethals or remove the CE's ID/Headset or otherwise try to permanently disable his player agency.

At the time I did not believe being a thief as a survivor was enough to be considered turncoat, I can accept that by stunning the CE I involved myself further but not to an extent where a ban was necessary. Feels like a very large over-reaction given I've had no notes in regards to this before as well as months of a clean slate.

Thanks for your time and have a CM Day.

Grimreaperx15 · Post by **Grimreaperx15** » 18 Dec 2018, 19:00

Notes:

► Show Spoiler

BobatNight · Post by **BobatNight** » 18 Dec 2018, 19:04

While the xeno notes aren't flattering, the last actual issue I had in the server was 8 months ago.

This is definitely an over-reaction in my book.

taketheshot56 · Post by **taketheshot56** » 18 Dec 2018, 19:19

Once more, you claim it was an over-reaction it was not. As i explained multiple times despite you trying to justify it. There is a MAJOR difference between stealing a few items here and there, and raiding engineering, attacking and taking the CE captive. Turncoating on the almayer as a survivor is simply not permitted.

BobatNight · Post by **BobatNight** » 18 Dec 2018, 19:22

raid
/rād/Submit
noun
1.
a sudden attack on an enemy by troops, aircraft, or other armed forces in warfare.

I didn't shoot the CE or try to take them captive, I disabled them temporarily and fled. You seem to be trying to punish me for another player's actions.

taketheshot56 · Post by **taketheshot56** » 18 Dec 2018, 19:24

BobatNight wrote: ↑
18 Dec 2018, 19:22
raid
/rād/Submit
noun
1.
a sudden attack on an enemy by troops, aircraft, or other armed forces in warfare.

I didn't shoot the CE or try to take them captive, I disabled them temporarily and fled. You seem to be trying to punish me for another player's actions.

You even admitted it yourself, you stunned tied up and locked up the CE.

BobatNight · Post by **BobatNight** » 18 Dec 2018, 19:25

He was never my prisoner or hostage, I disabled him to flee the room as well as de-escalated a lethal situation.

Grubstank · Post by **Grubstank** » 18 Dec 2018, 20:30

+support pending logs to corroborate Bobat's version of events. I feel the escalation described was sufficiently roleplayed, and the situation warranted a nonlethal action against the CE. I believe the standing ruling against survivor hostility on the Almayer is intended to stop severe cases where the survivors use lethal force and subsequently disrupt the flow of the round in a meaningful way.

While I would agree with action against the survivors who threatened lethal force, I feel that the use of non-lethal force against a less-important department head is acceptable in this instance; or at least doesn't warrant a job ban.

That being said, our rationale depends upon an ambiguous ruling which may need to be clarified by the head staff. (Subsequently, I don't believe Patton was in the wrong; this is a grey area in the rules, and there are extenuating circumstances.)

ThesoldierLLJK · Post by **ThesoldierLLJK** » 18 Dec 2018, 20:40

I’m going to remain neutral but I was approached by him in this situation and I did review the chat logs. The only hostile actions bobat did take were stunning the CE/CMP.

Bobat wanted my opinion as a senior mod becaue Bobat believed Patton was to heavy handed. I told him in my opinion Patton did not do anything wrong per say and was within his rights to issue a note and/or job ban.

That being said looking at the totality of the circumstances you did goof up, it does look like you did try to roleplay, and got caught up in a situation and just made a bad judgement. This wasn’t a case of you going friendly to marines and then murdering everyone on the Almayer.

I told Bobat as Patton did nothing wrong and was within his rights to issue a jobban to post an appeal so he can explain this totality and let other staff make a decision on it.

Lumdor · Post by **Lumdor** » 18 Dec 2018, 23:18

If what Soldier says is true then I can support this being lifted.

Though I'll wait till logs are posted before fully supporting this.

Neutral till logs are posted.

forest2001 · Post by **forest2001** » 19 Dec 2018, 09:01

I was the CMP that round and I was struck several times by Sal after catching him and the other survivor looting delta prep, I asked what they were doing and he hit me with a stunprod and then hit me a few more times with it turned off.

After the eventual arrest of them both Take was involved due to their actions. I’ll see if I can locate the relevant logs myself, as I recall he gave an excuse of shooting at the CE and the XO himself but only “when the door was closing so I knew it wouldn’t hit” when placed into the Brig Holding cell he drew a pulse rifle and fired at me, door just closing as he fired. Attempting to kill the CMP whilst under investigation for turncoating is not a point in his favour, regardless of if he did it intentionally to miss.

Raising a designated armoury for heavy weapons with no indication nor justification for the actions is outright turncoating, had they spoken with MPs and asked to redeploy then the whole situation may have been avoided.

forest2001 · Post by **forest2001** » 19 Dec 2018, 10:02

Logs starting with them in engineering:

Interaction with the CE

► Show Spoiler

This is as soon as I locate them at Delta Prep and my first interaction with either of the survivors.

► Show Spoiler

Taketheshot begins his investigation

► Show Spoiler

I find the two of them on the Alamo

► Show Spoiler

I leave Sal in the CIC with the XO who takes him to the Holding Cell whilst I run off to find the escaped survivor

► Show Spoiler

[04:50:18]ADMIN: PM: BobatNight/(Sal 'Spaghetti' Spanelli)->Taketheshot56/(Patton 'Hardtack' Moore): This is an IC issue that was RP'd, CE was warned not to give notice to our thievery/break in and did, he was subdued and tied up but called for help. CMP noticed us in prep and made a comment towards me to which I stun and ran off.
[04:50:23]ADMIN: PM: Yukisa/(Ciara Bode)->Taketheshot56/(Patton 'Hardtack' Moore): I was aimming at him, holding him hostage to not move. But he wasn't afraid of a gun pointed at him and tried to run at me with his disarming intent.

Sal was left on a roller bed until XO took him to holding cell
[04:50:29]OOC: (LOCAL) Sal 'Spaghetti' Spanelli/BobatNight : yo dont buckle cuff pls
[04:50:56]ADMIN: PM: BobatNight/(Sal 'Spaghetti' Spanelli)->Taketheshot56/(Patton 'Hardtack' Moore): They buckle cuffed me

[04:51:01]ADMIN: PM: Taketheshot56/(Patton 'Hardtack' Moore)->BobatNight/(Sal 'Spaghetti' Spanelli): Yea its not left as IC, id like to know why you were up acting subversive towards the marine force and attempting to rob them?
[04:51:34]ADMIN: PM: Taketheshot56/(Patton 'Hardtack' Moore)->Yukisa/(Ciara Bode): Right so, that is improper escalation, furthermore you commited a BIG NO NO trying to hold the CE hostage as a survivor, you are not permitted to be hostile once up on the ship.
[04:51:36]ADMIN: PM: Big Cheeks/(Evie Wynter)->Taketheshot56/(Patton 'Hardtack' Moore): Found them in upper engi hacking into the armory I tell them to leave and then Ciara pulled a 88mod on me for nothing and said Ciara Bode(as Ciara Bode) says, "Fraid' we can't do that." so I tried to take the gun off her she opens fire on me while Sal has a stunprod to keep me down they take my headset and lock me in a locker with my hands locked up
[04:51:48]ADMIN: PM: Taketheshot56/(Patton 'Hardtack' Moore)->Big Cheeks/(Evie Wynter): Alright ill speak with them.
[04:51:57]ADMIN: PM: BobatNight/(Sal 'Spaghetti' Spanelli)->Taketheshot56/(Patton 'Hardtack' Moore): Because we were trying to redeploy with gear.
[04:52:02]ADMIN: PM: Taketheshot56/(Patton 'Hardtack' Moore)->BobatNight/(Sal 'Spaghetti' Spanelli): Furthermore you were attempting to break into the armory?
[04:52:21]ADMIN: PM: Yukisa/(Ciara Bode)->Taketheshot56/(Patton 'Hardtack' Moore): Sorry about that, I wasn't sure what survivors could do. Was just following the other guy, thought it was okay within reasonable escalation. But it kinda went balls up.
[04:52:33]ADMIN: PM: BobatNight/(Sal 'Spaghetti' Spanelli)->Taketheshot56/(Patton 'Hardtack' Moore): Gonna ignore the fact the MPS have broken like every protocol so far because I like to RP. Yes I did try to break into the armory
[04:52:46]ADMIN: PM: Yukisa/(Ciara Bode)->Taketheshot56/(Patton 'Hardtack' Moore): Thought I take my chances to hold him up so he doesn't rat us out to the MPs.

I locate the missing survivor through use of the medical tracker
[04:53:13]ATTACK: Alfred Dome (forest2001) shot Unknown (as Ciara Bode) (yukisa) with a taser bolt in the Umbilical Starboard (<A HREF='?_src_=holder;adminplayerobservecoodjump=1;X=86;Y=67;Z=3'>JMP</a>)
[04:53:15]ATTACK: Forest2001/(Alfred Dome) grabbed Yukisa/(Ciara Bode)
[04:53:20]ATTACK: Forest2001/(Alfred Dome) attempted to handcuff Yukisa/(Ciara Bode)

[04:54:02]ADMIN: PM: BobatNight/(Sal 'Spaghetti' Spanelli)->Taketheshot56/(Patton 'Hardtack' Moore): I'm not sure what the issue is, I used a specifically non-lethal weapon.

Other survivor receives their punishment

► Show Spoiler

End of situation, Sal and the other survivor are cryo'd

BobatNight · Post by **BobatNight** » 19 Dec 2018, 12:43

forest2001 wrote: ↑
19 Dec 2018, 09:01
I was the CMP that round and I was struck several times by Sal after catching him and the other survivor looting delta prep, I asked what they were doing and he hit me with a stunprod and then hit me a few more times with it turned off.

After the eventual arrest of them both Take was involved due to their actions. I’ll see if I can locate the relevant logs myself, as I recall he gave an excuse of shooting at the CE and the XO himself but only “when the door was closing so I knew it wouldn’t hit” when placed into the Brig Holding cell he drew a pulse rifle and fired at me, door just closing as he fired. Attempting to kill the CMP whilst under investigation for turncoating is not a point in his favour, regardless of if he did it intentionally to miss.

Raising a designated armoury for heavy weapons with no indication nor justification for the actions is outright turncoating, had they spoken with MPs and asked to redeploy then the whole situation may have been avoided.

I used the stun baton on you twice when you blocked the doorway of the prep.

I was detained with weapons and buckle cuffed all the while.
Using it on you twice at prep which was unintentional , spam clicking and some lag there.

I did try to stun you again on the Alamo but I assume the charge ran out and fled instead.
I don't see any issue shooting a door and unbreakable window.

Edit: looking at your logs I have no idea how I got you 4 times in that one instance, sorry man it was just some lag. Worked out for you though, all the charge was empty by the time you found us on the Alamo.

Double edit: I would have mentioned the CMP but I didn't think it was relevant to the ban nor was it mentioned by Patton in said ban. Wasn't trying to hide it is my point lol

forest2001 · Post by **forest2001** » 19 Dec 2018, 19:24

I certainly could have handled the IC issue a bit better but I was rushing around as the only MP and did the best I could at the time without leaving the other survivor free.

I agree that perhaps a jobban might have been heavy whay with you not causing lethal conflict yourself, but some of the actions you took including shooting at me and the XO in the brig regardless of intentionally missing/shooting the door

BobatNight · Post by **BobatNight** » 19 Dec 2018, 20:57

forest2001 wrote: ↑
19 Dec 2018, 19:24
I certainly could have handled the IC issue a bit better but I was rushing around as the only MP and did the best I could at the time without leaving the other survivor free.

I agree that perhaps a jobban might have been heavy whay with you not causing lethal conflict yourself, but some of the actions you took including shooting at me and the XO in the brig regardless of intentionally missing/shooting the door

Yeah man I honestly didn't think it'd be an issue since I didn't cause any damage, I have a history of acting up in brig but only because I actually have had some good fun not just going SSD in the brig.

Edit: The no damage refers to shooting the door and window for clarification.

Bancrose · Post by **Bancrose** » 21 Dec 2018, 17:28

I am actually in favor of you getting this removed and just getting a note as I don't think a Job ban would have been necessary.

I'm trusting Soldiers Judgement call on this.

+1

BobatNight · Post by **BobatNight** » 21 Dec 2018, 17:55

Grubstank wrote: ↑
18 Dec 2018, 20:30
+support pending logs to corroborate Bobat's version of events. I feel the escalation described was sufficiently roleplayed, and the situation warranted a nonlethal action against the CE. I believe the standing ruling against survivor hostility on the Almayer is intended to stop severe cases where the survivors use lethal force and subsequently disrupt the flow of the round in a meaningful way.

While I would agree with action against the survivors who threatened lethal force, I feel that the use of non-lethal force against a less-important department head is acceptable in this instance; or at least doesn't warrant a job ban.

That being said, our rationale depends upon an ambiguous ruling which may need to be clarified by the head staff. (Subsequently, I don't believe Patton was in the wrong; this is a grey area in the rules, and there are extenuating circumstances.)

This was my understanding of the rule as well but I wasn't able to find anything to reference it. If any of the higher ups can clarify although I know it could also be intentionally vague in regards to Rule .1

forest2001 · Post by **forest2001** » 22 Dec 2018, 02:05

I have decided to give my support for this to be lifted. Similarly to the above quote I agree it’s somewhata grey area that requires a more thorough explanation.

Lumdor · Post by **Lumdor** » 22 Dec 2018, 13:38

From reading the logs I’ll be changing from neutral to +1.

You didn’t do anything as a survivor that ruined someone’s round and made sure too not do that.

taketheshot56 · Post by **taketheshot56** » 24 Dec 2018, 03:31

My stance remains the same, i believe the ban should stand. It may be a gray area but that doesn't alleviate the fact that you shouldn't be going around doing this as a survivor.

Ghostdex · Post by **Ghostdex** » 24 Dec 2018, 03:49

Grey area sure but that doesn't make it okay but seeing as it is one I'm neutral on this being lifted, more so as your recent history hasn't been bad.

Solarmare · Post by **Solarmare** » 24 Dec 2018, 06:58

You say you weren't hostile when you prepared a stunprod for use which you were whacking people with on harm intent, were specifically trying to break into an armoury on the vessel, and then proceeded to shoot at people while in the brig cell which could barely be justified in any IC sense. As far as the stun prod goes any other intent should work but it's a nonlethal means at least, the rest isn't something a survivor who willingly came up should really be doing. I'd say it could have been left at warning instead of an immediate ban, but the last act of yours of shooting in the brig really doesn't paint of picture of you trying not to be hostile.

Breaking into an armoury and taking weapons from it isn't really a good thing to do in most situations, if you aren't in code red it can be powergaming for taking something solely on the basis of it being better or you just ignoring that you're on a military and actually attempting something like that would never end well. It's the main point and could be grey area but, I'm not particularly favorable of survivors causing problems on the Almayer when they willingly came up. I won't say people can't do it at all, though it can be something put into consideration for punishment when coupled with other problems.

BobatNight · Post by **BobatNight** » 24 Dec 2018, 12:30

taketheshot56 wrote: ↑
24 Dec 2018, 03:31
My stance remains the same, i believe the ban should stand. It may be a gray area but that doesn't alleviate the fact that you shouldn't be going around doing this as a survivor.

Its a grey area but you're right and everyone else is wrong? Ok.

Do you think its at all odd that you're the only member who says a ban fits the crime?

@solarmare as far as I'm aware the CMP instance wasn't part of the job ban

forest2001 · Post by **forest2001** » 24 Dec 2018, 17:32

I believe it contributed but can not confirm. I do not believe that this should be allowed to degrade into a personal argument so I will ask that the both of you avoid allowing that to happen.

Tharinoma · Post by **Tharinoma** » 25 Dec 2018, 17:09

+1, I'm fine with the jobban being lifted. Regardless of how much bobatnight was in the wrong, it seems to me like he is unlikely to repeat his mistake, which is what a jobban would be used for.

Survivor Ban on first offense?

Survivor Ban on first offense?

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Re: Survivor Ban on first offense?

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Re: Survivor Ban on first offense?

Re: Survivor Ban on first offense?

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