Xeno Ban Appeal

[ForcefulCJS]

Byond ID: ForcefulCJS

Character name: Jack Robustin

Admin who banned you: Adjective

Initial duration: Forever

Duration remaining: Forever

Reason for ban: Decapitating Corpses and Aciding Heads + Previous Final Warning

Your appeal, including evidence:

I'm playing roundstart xeno and circumstances as a crusher force me to use slashing (it was 100% authorized by queen) on a couple marines. While mauling them and their corpses I notice that the aiming system feels too random, I was aiming for head but having all four limbs fly off before the head, and in the second instance I couldn't get their head off after 100+ head-targeted slashes. I even AHELPED asking why I couldn't decapitate some marines and was just told it was RNG.

Later in the round I'm a drone on the prison and there are no marines around, no nested, no infested, just xenos bored and passing the time until marines come back. I start testing slashes on a couple corpses that were lying around, two of their heads came off but the third one was literally DECAP proof despite not even wearing a helmet. I'm also aciding the heads because I thought it was hilarious and I literally had nothing better to do. While I'm trying to figure out why a marine can't be decapitated I get BWOINKED by adjective, he tells me that corpse destruction is metagaming to prevent cloning. I told him I had seen xenos destroy corpses every round and it was usually just a symbolic act of brutality (or boredom, usually boredom), and that the queen even had an EXPLICIT ABILITY DESIGNED TO DESTROY CORPSES.

I get told by Adjective that only the queen is permitted to destroy bodies (what?) and that for chopping them up and aciding the heads is metagaming to prevent cloning. I wasn't even THINKING about cloning, this is my first time playing on a decap server (/tg/ has no decap and you can't clone brains there) and I have no idea how your cloning system works. I've never run cloning here, never been cloned (despite having my intact body in medbay multiple times), only time I've stepped inside cloning was to get somewhere else through the ladder. These corpses had been left behind, forgotten, and I could've easily just stacked them in a deserted corner of the map behind resin walls if I felt like denying cloning, but I didn't feel like denying cloning, I wasn't even aware of or thinking about denying cloning, I was just a bored drone messing with bodies trying to get to the bottom of a bug in how decapitations work. Instead my first xeno ban is a permanent one because my notes, which contain no actual examples of griefing, are somehow evidence that I'm just a griefing shit looking to cause trouble.

You may not like me for my OOC/Forum personality but I play xenos better than most and I always aim to follow the rules. I was blindsided by this decision (at first it was a warning but it turned into a permaban based on my notes) because it makes absolutely NO sense for me to metagame like this. I gave a very good reason as to why it wasn't metagaming, but I was just told to take that argument here... so here I am.

Image of ban: http://imgur.com/S66IJPY

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TL;DR: I got accused of metagaming after I destroyed a couple corpses in the hive, it was a warning but got turned into a permaban based on my notes because of a "Final Warning" issued to me by another Staff Member.

I have no idea what prompted that note, Apop has never complained about my behavior IG, has never contacted me IG, never told me to stop acting a certain way IG. The only time I've spoken to Apop is on this website or when I've ahelped about other issues and he responded. Given our lack of contact I have no idea why he felt compelled to add a note encouraging me to get permabanned, I've followed all admin orders and never done anything that ruined someone else's round. SInce my notes prior to Apop's note were as follows:

1) Warning for putting several facehuggers under doors. Admin asked about it OOC and I volunteered that I was responsible. It was my 2nd day here and I was happy to adjust my strategy to be compliant with the rules. It was a respectful and informative interaction between admin and player.

2) I got autobanned as a marine for post-round combat, I had just joined, another marine started shooting me in the head right after the post-round message came up so I grabbed a gun and shot back. The initial ban was a 24hr ban for griefing that was reduced to 3 hours upon appeal. I made a comment in my appeal thread that when "The emphasis is on intent" is written in our griefing rule, it seems confusing that firing a weapon in self defense could be called griefing, and that the rule could be changed so that its clear. Apop was insulted by my suggestion and the same day I have the following note added:

"If this guy is a shit in the future, give him a 10 day, and submit it for Perma. by Apophis775 (Host) on Sat, December 5th of 2015"

This was on my 3-4th day of playing. I do not think that note is warranted at all, and that note was the basis for upgrading my warning to a xeno permaban.

[SecretStamos (Joshuu)]

1) Placing facehuggers under the doors near LZ on my 2nd day here, got asked in OOC about it and I came forward, told to stop, never did it again

Okay. You still violated a rule. Good on you for learning from your mistake, but you should have known better.

2) Shooting someone in self-defense post-round, got banned for griefing and its still in my notes that I'm a griefer, LOL

End of round grief is grief. You opened fire at the end of the round, and it's clear you didn't read the rules. Also it could benefit you a lot to be less rude. Mocking us for enforcing the written server rules is going to reflect pretty badly on you as a person.
From Rule 2:

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"*Harming other players (of the same species) at the end of the round. Marine vs Xeno is fine. End of Round Grief is an IMMEDIATE 3 hour ban with no warnings."

3) Warning for disagreeing with a queen in hivemind

Yet another clear violation of a written rule. But you don't seem to be contesting it. Here's the rule anyway:

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You have no free will. Your will is that of the Queen. OBEY HER ORDERS. If the queen contacts admins about you disobeying her, you WILL be punished.

4) Warning for cutting the feet off an infested host after we had 7 other escapees that round, our frontline fighters were just hugging+decapitating at that point but I decided to be MERCIFUL so I hugged someone, dragged them to a frontline nest, and cut their feet off as a precaution, got told it was against the rules and I should just murder them immediately next time, ok LOL, didn't slash anyone nested since then

Using lethal force against helpless marines trapped in a nest? You know that doing that, without proper treatment, is lethal? Also, for pretty obvious reasons, that's a pretty disrespectful thing to do. You shouldn't be harming marines if they're nested under any circumstances. And please drop the rudeness.

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Do not Kill infected hosts (once they have the icon) if they are defenseless or nested.

Rule 5:
I think it should be pretty clear what was wrong about aciding decapitated heads. As always, it's clear you violated the "prevent cloning rule". As always, ignorance isn't an excuse.

It appears to me you were given ample warnings. Your appeal isn't very convincing to me, and was only made worse by the insults and sarcasm you decided to include.

-1 from me, sorry.

[Feweh]

In my opinion thats a pretty harsh perma-ban.
However, you do deserve some form of a ban.
Youll obviously have to wait for Apophis to appeal this.

[ForcefulCJS]

@Secret

First off, I edited my thread to reflect new information:

1) Adjective shifted from warning to permaban based on the FINAL WARNING note that Apop had left one week ago which suggested that I be permabanned

2) The final warning note was added the same day that I had my first interaction with Apop, my 4th day of playing, when I appealed a 24hr ban for shooting in self-defense during postround. In my appeal I said the rule was confusing and that nobody would ever interpret self-defense to be "grief", I was a little salty about it but was given no indication that my notes had been changed because of my ban appeal on the forums.

3) Apop adds a note saying for me to given a long-term or permaban the next time that "I'm a shit". Other admins do not notify me of the remark or mention it during subsequent interactions, then today Adjective notices it and moves from "warning" to "permaban" based on the FINAL WARNING I had received from "his boss".

The note was added for forum behavior and I think a permaban for xenos on that basis goes too far.

[Jack McIntyre]

-1 from me. Was perma harsh, yes, but however it seems that that perma ban that should have occurred which would have actually permaed you from the whole server and not just xeno was ignored because you broke a another xeno rule after that which should have given you a harsher ban, however another staff member was nice and warned you, but said this was your last warning as a xeno. You then broke the rules again, and I am sorry, but just because you thought it would be hilarious to acid heads is not a good enough excuse in my book to warrant dropping this ban. You have broken the rules as a xeno time and time again and we have given you warnings, you can't keep getting warnings, after a while you have to get punished. Just be happy someone else decided to not take the actions that was noted by Apop on your notes.

Also a little sidenote public image actually means a lot. Just because you play a character in the game means that your forum account doesn't mean anything. I have told you countless times on the forums to learn from the veteran players and play the game and you will figure stuff out. You have seemed to ignore this everytime and kept your constant complaining that just annoys people in the chatbox. Your public image and reputation as a player is judged in everything you do, that is how it is in real life mate. If you go into a place of business a lot and have a hostile or annoying attitude no one will want to serve you because of your reputation at that place. This is no different.

[Feweh]

Im sorry, but if his actions purely going by his notes warrant a perma ban then we need to start banning a lot more people.

In waiting for Apop to clarify if something else is going on here.

[ForcefulCJS]

Part 2 of my reply, this part is largely irrelevant based on what I've learned but I'll add some details for you:

End of round grief is grief. You opened fire at the end of the round, and it's clear you didn't read the rules. Also it could benefit you a lot to be less rude. Mocking us for enforcing the written server rules is going to reflect pretty badly on you as a person.
From Rule 2:

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"*Harming other players (of the same species) at the end of the round. Marine vs Xeno is fine. End of Round Grief is an IMMEDIATE 3 hour ban with no warnings."

The example listen describes harming other players as end of round grief. You could survey 100 gamers outside of this server and 100/100 would say that shooting in self-defense against a griefing player is not "griefing" .

Griefing - Defined as the perceived intent of one player wanting to cause grief to other players or to the server without any roleplay or reason. The emphasis is on "intent". If an admin determines that the player's intent is to break roleplay, the player should expect swift retribution. Any damage to the station or players caused by griefing can be repaired at an Admin's discretion.

Ok seems fair enough, what about the examples? Examples are defined as "a thing characteristic of its kind or illustrating a general rule".

In the law and English language it's been clear for a long time that examples never create new rules, they are designed to help interpret, exemplify, and clarify. Every other rule in the server rules follows this definition.

I would make no sense for me to say "RULE: DO NOT BE EVIL, THE EMPHASIS IS ON INTENT, SO DONT HARM THE INNOCENT... EXAMPLE: DO NOT KICK PUPPIES" and then turn around and punish someone because they kicked a RABID HELL PUPPY POSSESSED BY SATAN HIMSELF AND THAT PUPPY WAS ALSO KICKING SEVERAL OTHER INNOCENT BABY PUPPIES TO DEATH. Sure you can always say "BUT DUDE THE EXAMPLE SAYS NO KICKING PUPPIES" but there isn't a court in the country that would agree with you, they would construct the example within rule that it followed and determine that the example only meant innocent puppies. Every form of modern rule-interpretation would reject the literal interpretation and determine that context demanded that the example be understood in the light of the aforementioned rule and limited to innocent puppies.

I was only told later that the rule was designed to reduce end-round log clutter (but why allow xeno v. human violence then?) and my suggestion was to move the post-round rule to its own category and make it clear that its not considered grief, its just a practical rule we have in place to streamline the post-round experience. I have followed this rule 100% since then and completely dropped the issue at Apop's request, but it seems that our prior interaction is the reason I'm here right now with a permaban.

Yet another clear violation of a written rule. But you don't seem to be contesting it. Here's the rule anyway:

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You have no free will. Your will is that of the Queen. OBEY HER ORDERS. If the queen contacts admins about you disobeying her, you WILL be punished.

Yea, why did you explicitly cut out the part I put in parenthesis saying (I still followed orders). I clearly didn't break the rule. I followed orders but disagreed with the queen in Hivemind about the wisdom of our actions, two other xenos lashed out and claimed that doubting the queen wasn't permitted and then 60 seconds later I've got an admin asking me about it. I was always clear that I never disobeyed, I simply offered my input based on my own observations. I'm not clear why its in my notes, the admin never looked into it and just gave me some advice, they just basically said "Hey I hear you're refusing to follow orders?" "Reply: I'm following orders, I'm just disagreeing with their wisdom, I'm was literally carrying out the orders as you contacted me" "Oh alright, well just remember you have to obey the queen". Disagree != Disobey.

Using lethal force against helpless marines trapped in a nest? You know that doing that, without proper treatment, is lethal? Also, for pretty obvious reasons, that's a pretty disrespectful thing to do. You shouldn't be harming marines if they're nested under any circumstances. And please drop the rudeness.

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Do not Kill infected hosts (once they have the icon) if they are defenseless or nested.

The rule is "DO NOT KILL INFESTED HOSTS". I had been told by several mentors and other forum veterans that slashing off feet or hands was a good way to prevent marines to escape and that it wouldn't kill them if they didn't have a pre-existing injury. So I slashed each foot a few times and went on my way. EIther the host succumbed (which is a kind of shitty way to adminhelp something, other server would ban the initial reporter instead because they're basically ban-baiting. If I go down the hall with 95 toxin damage and the clown slips me with a banana (not knowing how badly I was hurt, or perhaps that slips are harmful on the server I'm referencing), and I immediately type "succumb" and then ahelp "THE CLOWN KILLED ME" then I would be the one getting banned. Anyway I'm getting off-topic.

Yea I was told that slashing extremities a few times each would never kill someone and so I slashed a squad leader's feet off after all our drones had died and I had no viable way to get the SL I had infested back to a secure nest. I had to use an unguarded front-line nest (that I had made as a drone) but there was only one resin door securing the nest and it was still only a short distance from the front line (which had collapsed for the xenos but marines were still playing defensively). As a carrier I knew once the squad leader got up, there was no way for me to control him as a carrier, and that he was still talking into his headset (and I could hear other voices talking back), and that marines had already raided this area on multiple occasions. I was 100% justified IC to do this. Queen had authorized it. Like I said, every other xeno on the front had completely adopted hug+decap tactics. I was the ONLY one attempting to nest but after 7+ marines had already escaped that round and basically gutted our nest in the process, I felt it was fair to take precautions. I've had queens even authorize murdering nested hosts in other rounds when we had to retreat , nobody every disagreed and we always slaughtered the marines without hesitation. I never imagined that admins would try to enforce the rule's on slashing policy over and above the queen's authority, and even then I wasn't murdering, my intention was to cripple him so that murder wouldn't be necessary and that we might get a living host instead of "Decapitated Host #24" that the rest of the hive had been so keen on producing. I'm still not sure why its a rule though, if a queen has seen survivors escape, infested hosts who return to the battle free of infestation, if she has seen the implication of an infested host escaping and then attacking your sisters, and then she sees an overwhelming host attack that is less than a minute from rescuing the infested hosts... are you really going to force the queen to stand down to admins and actively harm their own hive by allowing for a potential mass-host rescue? Or perhaps the queen is permitted to kill them but she can't order her sisters to help?

Even then, while I felt (and still feel) that the rule is pretty awful since it encourages people to hug+decap rather than nest+cripple, and it allows admins to overrule queen's orders on perfectly legitimate slashing tactics, and that slashing limbs for the purpose of crippling is actually a life-PRESERVING measure, I still obeyed it and have never slashed a living host since then.

Apparently Xenos are bound by the Geneva convention or something, if someone can tell me why admins get to force xenos to harm their own chances of victory for non-RP reasons, I'd like to hear it. Also stop carving out rules for the queen. She's a leader. She sets an example for the hive. If the queen walks up and starts murdering hosts for "RP reasons", and encourages the other sisters to act like her, it seems absurd to get BWOINKED by an admin and be told "Yea you had orders to kill the nested hosts out of well-established RP reason for revenge when they bombed all the larva from your first hive, and yea the Queen proceeded to tear a defenseless host from limb to limb in front of you, AND there's a rule that you have to obey the queen... but it turns out the Queen has special rules and you don't so you've broken the rules, ignorance is no excuse".

Rule 5:
I think it should be pretty clear what was wrong about aciding decapitated heads. As always, it's clear you violated the "prevent cloning rule". As always, ignorance isn't an excuse.

It appears to me you were given ample warnings. Your appeal isn't very convincing to me, and was only made worse by the insults and sarcasm you decided to include.

-1 from me, sorry.

The rule reads, "Do not eat dead bodies outside the main hive or to prevent cloning." First you want me to read the "Don't harm humans" example LITERALLY (even when the literal interpretation would violate the rule its supposed to be an example of), but then you want me to read this rule extremely broadly so that "Dont eat corpses outside the nest" also includes "Don't decapitate humans inside the nest"?

I mean we have a queen ability that is used almost exclusively for gibbing humans inside the nest, almost always corpses. I come from a server where there's no decapitation and merely recovering "the brain" won't allow for cloning. Would it be meta for xenos to destroy heads just to prevent them from cloning? Yea sure that's classic meta, but there's a HUGE HUGE HUGE SWATH of behavior that can be META or NON-META depending on the context. LZ Camping is META, securing a recently hugged survivor who had ran to the dropship airlock when the dropship suddenly plops in front of you is NOT META. I was goofing around with some long-forgotten corpses because I was investigating a bug (and yes I had already ahelped the same round asking about it, that admin didn't seem to care about my corpse desecration) that prevented decapitation. I acided the heads because I was aciding random stuff that amused me (i.e. I acided a getmore cholocate corp. vending machine and that wasn't to METAGAME THE MARINES BY DENYING THEM A VALUABLE SOURCE OF CHOCOLATE). If I had actually wanted to meta it would've made far more sense to just drag them to some isolated corner of the prison and put them in a locker and/or drop resin walls around them, but I didn't do that because I wasn't try to meta, I was just goofing around as a bored drone doing bug testing while we waiting for our jelly to fill up and there's tons of evidence for that while theres no evidence that it was some absurd clone-denial scheme using the absolutely least effective method for denying cloning. Despite the initial confusion (since this rule isn't written anywhere and its hard to have metaknowledge about a topic that you don't even have OOCknowledge about) I understood the reason for the rule and I'm more than happy to refrain from it.

And that's where I'll close this reply. There hasn't been an ounce of evidence that I've ever acted maliciously. I read the rules multiple times before playing and have always made a good faith effort to follow them. When I am told to explicitly stop something, I have always done so with 100% compliance. It seems like overkill to go from a few warnings to a complete xeno permaban. Even my forum behavior has improved, even after Apop added a note requesting my permaban, I started treating him with much more respect. I would argue that this is the effect of emotions and misunderstandings, myself included, and that it should not be the grounds for a permaban. I'll reiterate, whenever an admin has contacted me about my behavior, I was not exhibiting any malicious behavior, I was always honest, and I've always obeyed their requests with 100% consistency. I'm new here, things are run here very differently, but across the week I've been here I've already changed my behavior markedly for the better.

[ForcefulCJS]

-1 from me. Was perma harsh, yes, but however it seems that that perma ban that should have occurred which would have actually permaed you from the whole server and not just xeno was ignored because you broke a another xeno rule after that which should have given you a harsher ban, however another staff member was nice and warned you, but said this was your last warning as a xeno. You then broke the rules again, and I am sorry, but just because you thought it would be hilarious to acid heads is not a good enough excuse in my book to warrant dropping this ban. You have broken the rules as a xeno time and time again and we have given you warnings, you can't keep getting warnings, after a while you have to get punished. Just be happy someone else decided to not take the actions that was noted by Apop on your notes.

Also a little sidenote public image actually means a lot. Just because you play a character in the game means that your forum account doesn't mean anything. I have told you countless times on the forums to learn from the veteran players and play the game and you will figure stuff out. You have seemed to ignore this everytime and kept your constant complaining that just annoys people in the chatbox. Your public image and reputation as a player is judged in everything you do, that is how it is in real life mate. If you go into a place of business a lot and have a hostile or annoying attitude no one will want to serve you because of your reputation at that place. This is no different.

I don't understand your reply. The only thing in my notes about a final warning was from APop based on me giving him an attitude in my ban appeal one week ago (getting a 24hr ban for griefing when I shot a griefer in self-defense after the credits). I started treating Apop with more respect when we spoke in Minichat following that thread, and when I've contacted him in Ahelp, even when I don't like his decisions, I am respectful, courteous, and obedient to his decisions. Apparently he didn't go back and remove the note though so I've basically had a ticking time bomb in my notes based on a completely Out-of-Character and Out-of-Client interaction with the host.

I've never been told "this is your final warning as a xeno" by anyone. And the other warnings were for minor infractions that some admins would tell me weren't even rule-breaking, one of them explicitly wasn't even a warning for breaking the rules... just getting NEAR breaking the rules by disagree'ing with a queen while still faithfully obeying her orders. The warning was literally "You're close to breaking a rule we have, make sure you don't". I've also been told several times I can break legs because, and mentors/admins have told me this, slashing feet a few times won't kill them, so if you can justify it with RP reasoning then you're ok. Even now I'm absolutely baffled as to how fragile/strong marine limbs are. I slashed a marines foot off in four hits and he succumbed first chance he got a few minutes later, but I also experience shit like this:

http://pastebin.com/WWCBBb0g

And you can't fault me for believing mentors when I'm told that a few slashes on an extremity won't kill, when it can take over 50 slashes to kill other regular marines. I clearly wasn't trying to kill in the incident I've discussed, I broke his legs so I wouldn't have to kill him. Everyone else was hugging+decapping after the queen died and as the last carrier I wanted to do something high-risk and try to continue our lineage instead of just murdering marines until we died. So instead of decap'ing I nest him in the only place around, which cannot contain him once he breaks the resin, and I slashed his feet off as he starts to wake up. It made tons of sense for RP purposes and was better for both sides (crippled in nest > dead and headless in terms of survival prospects, wounded host who can't run away >>> dead and headless in terms of new children prospects). When I was informed that I was breaking the rules, I was confused, but I still agreed to not slash nested hosts ever again (even over the queen's orders, and in the past they've made that order several times). There was confusion about the nature of the rule and once that confusion was resolved I follow it diligently. I don't know how you can see "Tries his best to follow rules" as a fault. This is a complex game with many grey areas and tons of information that takes time to learn, I would hope that people can recognize that I'm not trying to antagonize anyone or be a troublemaker. Every action I've taken was to help protect the Hive without ruining anyone's round.

[Wickedtemp]

So I had this nice reply typed out but then my phone browser crashed so here's a TL;DR before hand in case it happens again: If it was in the nest, I don't see an issue. Also, Staff, sarcasm does NOT equal disrespect.

If it was in the nest, there shouldn't be an issue.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure that eating corpses in the nest is fine, and that also prevents cloning, so there's no real reason to get onto Forceful for this.

Also, a hint of sarcasm here and there isn't what I would call "Disrespecting staff." sometimes it feels like Staff takes that a bit too far.

"What are you doing?"
"Oh, I'm doing X."
"X is against the rules."
"Oh, okay. I was just doing X though because of reasons Y and Z. When Y and Z happens, it's a bit silly to NOT do X."
"Okay, first off, stop disrespecting Staff..."

If you honestly feel like someone has wronged you by using sarcasm, then it may be best to take a little break from CM, do something relaxing and then tackle the issue with a clear mind.

Sidenote, of course the above conversation didn't play out word for word, but that's honestly what I see sometimes.

[ForcefulCJS]

On a final note both JACK and ADJECTIVE seem to think I was treated with MERCY compared to Apop's note.

Apop's note says to give me a 10-day ban and SUBMIT my name for a permaban if "I'm a shit" again. I wasn't being a shit, was very respectful to adjective when he contacted me, my behavior was an innocent bored mistake not explicitly in the rules anywhere that had ZERO effect on anyone's round, but I digress.

This is essentially a permaban for me. I'm a regular xeno player who only marines when they game doesn't put me in the xeno starting pool. I would gladly take even a 10-day ban compared to a permaban for the role I play the most. Even if you did exactly what Apop said, it would be less harsh than the ban Adjective laid down. It seems like Marine players seems to view a Xeno ban as "not that bad of a punishment". The Apop note had nothing to do with my Xeno play, it was based on a ban appeal thread for when I was playing marine, but it was the reason Adjective upgraded a simple warning into a straight up permaban even though the note itself doesn't recommend any immediate action beyond a flat 10-day ban.

I don't expect anyone to be my best friend based on my forum posts, but when all my threads are sincere efforts to improve the game, I also don't expect someone to secretly add a note to my BYOND account telling them to push for my permaban "next time he's a shit".

The non-contested outcome here is:

1) Adjective prepares to give me a warning

2) He goes to add a note

3) He sees a "FINAL WARNING" note from Apop that was due to a forum thread, the warning offers a suggested ban of 10-days with a thread requesting my permaban

4) Instead of upgrading from a warning to a 10-day, Adjective goes straight to a Xeno permaban. Ofc when he says he feels like he has to ban me because of a note "from his boss", it doesn't make any sense to go above and beyond what even your boss suggested. If Adjective felt like my behavior deserved a warning, but Apop felt I deserved a 10-day ban, why did it end up as a permanent xenoban?

[apophis775]

You know that the reason you attack a head and it doesn't come off, is because your attacking the head. You have to attack the NECK.

As far as the note I added, it was in relation to your overall attitude in your ban appeal thread, our communication in-game (we did talk in-game before I gave that notes), and your previous notes of having only played for around 3 days, and already earned several notes. The "If shit" part, was to refer to if you were being disrespectful or argumentative with the staff member, which is why you probably only got a job-ban.

[Jack McIntyre]

As well as Vrai actually said you told us that when you were banned you were actually acting quite respectful, but when I mention when you were acting like "shit" was in the mini-chat. I get you were upset that you had gotten banned from xeno, and I do apologize because i checked your notes and you had a few after the note from apop about giving you the 10 day ban for warnings on xeno. It just said final warning for xeno, so if they did not say this is your final warning I do apologize however, that does not mean that your rule breaking as a xeno is not at fault.

Forceful, I don't believe you are a bad person, I just think that with your mini box chat and the way you come off sometimes makes you seem more hostile then you may think. Like when in your suggestions when you think you may be making a joke about 360 no scope marines and how you may poke fun at staff it may seem disrespectful. Many on the staff think you bring up good points, but we also feel like you also bring some insults towards us and don't seem to respect our positions or those who have more time then you in the community. You have just developed a bad reputation from a lot of people in the community. It seems that it is just the way you may be going about things. I have tried to warn you time and time again, you have some good ideas, you just put some "salt" behind it and it comes off as offensive to some of the marine players which may not like the way you are coming off. You just need to work on your public image I believe. That being said I would be considering neutral on your ban appeal, but you really need to read the rules and learn some more about SS13 so that you aren't doing things against the rules because ignorance is not a good reason to be breaking them.

[ForcefulCJS]

@Jack

I'll use this, err, opportunity to play other human roles for perspective (I didn't even know how cloning worked here). I just hope the xeno ban isn't going to end up permanent because it's the aspect of the game that really interests me. I'm used to blasting xenos in SS13 but CM makes the xeno experience much more dynamic.

@Apop

I understand why the note was added in the first place. I was upset about the EOR Grief incident and that frustration tainted a lot of my posting, I definitely could improve my communications on the forums.

But I don't think it was fair for it to be used to justify a permaban from Xenos.

I've started recently but I've also played a ridiculous amount, I've learned a lot and always tried to make every round an improvement over the last.

Regarding my communications with Adjective here, I don't believe I was acting like shit or being disrespectful. There was some confusion (I was asked about decapitating humans and didn't think that was considered anti-cloning meta), but I was always respectful - although Adjective can offer his side of the story if he felt I was being a shit.

[Jack McIntyre]

He did tell some of us staff and like I said Forceful, I get it, but when you said you were just doing it because you thought it was hilarious it makes it seem bad. You don't just have to play as marine, you can play on other servers or just read I suppose other wikis to make sure about things like this, but to be honest just because you have a perma ban on xeno doesn't mean it is permanent. Most people who get a job ban, you can play something different then put a appeal down if we think you have learned your lesson and you honestly understand your mistakes, you will get unjob banned. We have to make them permenant however because the server is actually set up where we can't just give you a temp one. So don't be upset if it says permanent just use it as a opprunity to see the marine side of things, this way when you do make suggestions you have both sides of the argument and may actually help you give a marine and xeno point of view so that when you do suggestions you may be able to appeal to both sides.

[SecretStamos (Joshuu)]

I understand why the note was added in the first place. I was upset about the EOR Grief incident and that frustration tainted a lot of my posting, I definitely could improve my communications on the forums.

So that whole End of Round Grief incident from a few weeks ago is the source of all your anger and sarcasm in all of your posts?

That's not something I understand.

[Tornadium]

I was under the impression that corpse destruction was simply a part of the gameplay if it was inside the hive? There is a rule specifically for that and a hell of a lot of Xenos do it, why is this any different? Pretty sure in that round (if its the one i'm thinking about) the Queen authorized it and other Xenos were destroying corpses. Some that were even outside of the hive.

Moving on though,

What I really wanted to ask is what's the deal with the staff interpretation of grief? I'm having a really really hard time getting my head around this. Isn't grief classified by the intent of the action in the context of the situation rather than just straight up you did X this is griefing? Shooting someone post round who is shooting you to me honestly is not griefing and I don't think I have ever seen a server in SS13 or any RP mod for the likes of GMOD, Arma or whatever have that kind of stance either. CJS from my year or two experience playing with him is anything but a griefer and his actions were (in my opinion at least) clearly not griefing?

I don't honestly understand why that note is there, I'd be mad as hell if I got a ban + note for shooting someone in self defense after the round ended. I read the previous appeal thread and not a single explanation made sense to me. In any circumstance I could think of I could never see that as a griefing action. Whose round did it ruin? The dude who was already griefing by trying to kill someone post round FNR?

[ForcefulCJS]

So that whole End of Round Grief incident from a few weeks ago is the source of all your anger and sarcasm in all of your posts?

That's not something I understand.

It was the source of my attitude towards Apop, I've been over it for several days now though.

As for the suggestion threads, I don't think I'm terribly out of line there, all my suggestions are constructive with ideas for improving the game. I get frustrated when most suggestions are flooded with marine players who refuse to give xenos an inch of ground in balance issues. When even modest proposals like giving the SADAR a few seconds to shoulder and fire (like the Boiler's bombard) don't get taken seriously it can be discouraging but I've never been unproductive in my posts. My posts and replies are always responding to ideas or offering my own.


@Jack

When I said hilarious, I was just referring the concept of literally melting faces, I wasn't aware of the metagame possibility. It's hilarious the same way its hilarious when xenos lined up all the heads of our victims and put them in a line, obviously its not funny for marines but you're species survives through such gruesome mechanics having fun with marine corpses is about all we've got to pass the time. Obviously, like all the other things I've learned here, I'm not going to do it again.

I do play on other servers, namely /tg/station, where I've played for years and developed a pretty ridiculous level of knowledge about how things work there. It's only when the systems diverge that I get caught off guard (i.e. decapitation, baymedicine, etc.).

@Tornadium

I appreciate the support. People have many different opinions about me at /tg/, one year I got a free game on Steam for being one of the top 3 most enjoyable people to play with (year end contest on the old forums), at the same time many people don't like me because I get cocky in the OOC channel/forums and trash talk bad players (Not really a problem on Xeno team since you don't have static names and so you really can't hold grudges or anything since players change names every time they die). But when you've played 4,000+ rounds with the same name on a server you inevitably develop rivalries with people.

As for the grief thing, I just dropped it. I was told later that it cluttered up the logs for the admins (but xeno v. human violence is allowed, and the MP who finished me off thinking I was the aggressor told me in LOOC they had admin's permission to kill people, so I'm not sure that's the whole story either), I just didn't see a point in continuing to debate it when the staff has made a final decision. Just like the whole SADAR silliness and Xeno nesting problems, I just accept it and move on when I get my "final answer". However to the extent that the note is still being used against me, well obviously I don't agree with that. The note should at least mention that it was in self-defense because it seems silly that I might have the same note (or worse) that an actual griefer was given.

[SASoperative]

Sorry buddy. Denied for now. Try again in a few weeks or so.