Failure to Escalate/Notes

[masterspots]

Your Byond ID: masterspots

Character Name: Artyrial Loudain

Admin who banned you: localizeddownpour

Total Ban Duration: 720 minutes

Remaining Duration: 720 minutes

What other servers do you play on? None

Are you now or have you been banned on any of them? No

Reason for ban (Exactly what the WHOLE text says, if there's a Code (X##XXX##) and you don't give it, you can't be unbanned): Failure to Escalate/Notes

Link to previous appeals for the same ban (if applicable):

Your appeal, including evidence (screenshots, etc): We are about 2 hours into the round, defending the nexus against aliens and a Pred, Casca get's huggered so I run out and shot the runner trying to drag her away and start removing the hugger, at which point some random underwear marine comes over and runs off with her. More xeno's come and I open fire at them trying to cover this guy and Cas he removes the hugger and then takes Cas's gun and runs off with it. I shake Cas up and chase him, I can't speak to him as he's running off at full pelt so I try disarm him a couple of times. At this point he's taken Cas's gun and swapped it with his own, I've tried disarming him so I can speak to him but he's carried on running so I fire twice into his groin and he finally stops. I say oi, you took her gun! and try disarming him again. At this point Cas comes over and fires into the guy and kills him.

I 'escalated' as best I could given the fact he wouldn't let me ask him I tried disarming him for it and couldn't.

localizeddownpour then proceed to accuse me of killing the marine and called me a liar when I said I hadn't stating the logs proved that I didn't when clearly they didn't as I had already stopped shooting him and was disarming and telling him to drop it when Cas came over and shot him.

I don't know maybe I was wrong, but I feel like I wasn't I didn't open up on him straight away or even try to kill him I aimed for his groin to try and slow him down and keep it non lethal as we would probably have the medication to handle any broken bones down there.

[TR-BlackDragon]

this is Auto denied due to this not being over a 24 hour ban. I will look into it futher when the logs merge. Which will be tomorrow. But this ban will not be lifted. As you still shouldnt have shot at him.

3. Bans take at minimum, 24 hours to be investigated and processed. Avoid appealing for a 24 hour or less ban.

[LocalizedDownpour]

http://prnt.sc/awvsny

Top link shows you trying to disarm him and then shooting him. Then after you asked for her things you pointblanked him.

http://prnt.sc/awvsup

Second link shows death

When I first messaged you you said you didn't shoot him, to which I said I had logs and lying wouldn't help, and continued to deny it until you said you shot him twice. You've been warned about escalation alot, theft of a gun is no reason to fire at someone with AP rounds..

[TR-BlackDragon]

there may be more to it as that is only part of the issue. as neither show art actually disarming which i did see when i log dived. I will log dive even more tomorrow when i get home.

[Gelonvia]

I can confirm, that my ban was justified, but hers was not. We established between me and Localizeddownpour that it was my fault for killing the person who was trolling me. Afterwords he tossed a naked gun at me trying to act like he was giving it back but that was the Trolls old gun which he kept mine on his back, afterwords he tried running thinking I wouldn't notice and I shot him in the foot to prevent him from running, but he bled out of his foot and chest, and I think head because of RNG. Either way, the Troll collapsed and ended up dying while I was grabbing my gun off him. Then when he died I put his original gun on him and dragged him inside to be cloned.

This is one of your standard, "Russel" trolls who come on trying to take after the Host from Russel Station, the ones you get constantly on every server who just act like jerks. Localized and me did talk and he did tell me I did kill him because /i/ did, and afterwords I got my appropriate ban. However afterwords I was inform by Masterspot that she was called a Liar during her process with Localizeddownpour under the subject of him calling her the one who killed the Russel Clone Troll. I don't know what that is about but me and Localized did establish I was the one who killed them just like the Logs state even if by accident.

Then afterwords I was informed by ShamWow that the discussion on Staff Chat was Sham actually communicated to his other Staff Teammates about the situation sense he was fully present and does have an awareness of what to do in certain situations, which combo that with him actually being aware of the situation he apparently suggested for a warning but then Feweh shut him down and then said to ban all of us, meaning the guy who did know what was going on wasn't being listened. I don't know what thats routing from but all staff should have an opinion here especially if they watched the scene.

Finally in my past experiences when someone Trolls you like that, we're told it's an IC Issue, as I am sure many current Admins can back me up such as Ordukai, CJ, Allan, and alike, my thought process was still back in those times about how there is /nothing/ I can do. Infact I have no doubts if I ahelped "This gun just trolled me and stole my gun and ran off with it." that my response would be. "Sorry, thats an IC issue." meaning that him getting shot and dying usually is the effect to IC issues. I have been told in the past that shooting someone who steals your shit is allowed in IC Scenario's such as this, but that I should expect following IC Issues such as MP's being called or being labelled as rogue, or even people just straight up understanding. I had no clue that all of a sudden that Staff were finally pushing off the IC issue now.

[Gelonvia]

http://prnt.sc/awvsny

Top link shows you trying to disarm him and then shooting him. Then after you asked for her things you pointblanked him.

http://prnt.sc/awvsup

Second link shows death

When I first messaged you you said you didn't shoot him, to which I said I had logs and lying wouldn't help, and continued to deny it until you said you shot him twice. You've been warned about escalation alot, theft of a gun is no reason to fire at someone with AP rounds..

First link proves what she said was actually true, sense she pointblanked him and he /never/ gave it back till after she started using bullets, meaning he wouldn't comply in this IC issue without her having used said bullets. and even then what he gave was not even the stolen gun with my attachments, it was a naked gun to try and fool us while he ran off with the real gun.

Seconds it also does prove that what she said about not being able to talk while she was trying to chase him being true, as she had to start disarming him trying to not hurt him but he didn't want to comply.

Finally out of ALL of this, ShamWow /still/ has stated that he mentioned that he did know the scenario and did give a suggestion on how to proceed by was over-ruled by Feweh. And I have no doubts logs will back that Admin-chatter in Msay up. :-I

[Feweh]

First link proves what she said was actually true, sense she pointblanked him and he /never/ gave it back till after she started using bullets, meaning he wouldn't comply in this IC issue without her having used said bullets.

Seconds it also does prove that what she said about not being able to talk while she was trying to chase him being true, as she had to start disarming him trying to not hurt him but he didn't want to comply.

Finally out of ALL of this, ShamWow /still/ has stated that he mentioned that he did know the scenario and did give a suggestion on how to proceed by was over-ruled by Feweh. And I have no doubts logs will back that Admin-chatter in Msay up. :-I

Whoa don't involve me here, I just stated ban time's and how to check notes to reference the appropriate ban lengths. Down asked us how to determine appropriate ban times and punishments.
Down delivered what he thought was appropriate, because I honestly didn't have ANY idea what was going on and never told him what to do.

[LocalizedDownpour]

I can confirm, that my ban was justified, but hers was not. We established between me and Localizeddownpour that it was my fault for killing the person who was trolling me. Afterwords he tossed a naked gun at me trying to act like he was giving it back but that was the Trolls old gun which he kept mine on his back, afterwords he tried running thinking I wouldn't notice and I shot him in the foot to prevent him from running, but he bled out of his foot and chest, and I think head because of RNG. Either way, the Troll collapsed and ended up dying while I was grabbing my gun off him. Then when he died I put his original gun on him and dragged him inside to be cloned.

This is one of your standard, "Russel" trolls who come on trying to take after the Host from Russel Station, the ones you get constantly on every server who just act like jerks. Localized and me did talk and he did tell me I did kill him because /i/ did, and afterwords I got my appropriate ban. However afterwords I was inform by Masterspot that she was called a Liar during her process with Localizeddownpour under the subject of him calling her the one who killed the Russel Clone Troll. I don't know what that is about but me and Localized did establish I was the one who killed them just like the Logs state even if by accident.

Then afterwords I was informed by ShamWow that the discussion on Staff Chat was Sham actually communicated to his other Staff Teammates about the situation sense he was fully present and does have an awareness of what to do in certain situations, which combo that with him actually being aware of the situation he apparently suggested for a warning but then Feweh shut him down and then said to ban all of us, meaning the guy who did know what was going on wasn't being listened. I don't know what thats routing from but all staff should have an opinion here especially if they watched the scene.

Finally in my past experiences when someone Trolls you like that, we're told it's an IC Issue, as I am sure many current Admins can back me up such as Ordukai, CJ, Allan, and alike, my thought process was still back in those times about how there is /nothing/ I can do. Infact I have no doubts if I ahelped "This gun just trolled me and stole my gun and ran off with it." that my response would be. "Sorry, thats an IC issue." meaning that him getting shot and dying usually is the effect to IC issues. I have been told in the past that shooting someone who steals your shit is allowed in IC Scenario's such as this, but that I should expect following IC Issues such as MP's being called or being labelled as rogue, or even people just straight up understanding. I had no clue that all of a sudden that Staff were finally pushing off the IC issue now.

In Msay I was told to 'Do what I thought was right' after I read the notes and everything like that. Arty was just as guilty for shooting them as you were, and the main reason Arty got banned was because they have a habit of using lethal force when it isn't needed otherwise things would have gone differently.

[Gelonvia]

But this wouldn't have gone differently, this was an Anony Russel Troll that we get. I'm understanding that theres miscommunication sometimes between staff, and with becoming a new staff that mistakes are made, I have been in that position too as staff and as a human being sense we all make mistakes, but what I am expecting is acceptance sense there's alot of issues that wen't wrong. In this Case Arty only shot once because the Anony Russel Clone Troll (And lets not get me even started on these guys who constantly come back to every station ever after the original James Russel of Russel Station) was doing their normal thing of massive trolling, and no matter what she tried of disarming even going out of the way to not try and hurt anyone and stand up for whats right which is handling a guy who's being a passive IC Troll, was not working, and even /after/ that he CONTINUED to troll me. And she's getting punished for sticking up for someone who's being abused by the playerbase?

I mean come on, she was trying to help a Victim, and the Victim sense it was an IC situation, then the Victim got banned too after being trolled SO hard by this no doubt experience russel clone troll. Like, /why/ is she getting punished for doing what was the only thing in her power sense Ahelps won't help her sense its an "IC Problem" but when she tries to ICly handle it she gets Banned? She wasn't even the one who killed them and she gets called the killer, she didn't escalate at all because we're all human beings, i'm not Cattle I made my own choice to shoot the Russel Clone Troll in the foot because I knew he would be to fast considering I was injured aswell pretty brutally and that guy was taking advantage of a player ICly and the Rules knowing he could get around the IC Clause by Calling Staff and making it seem like he was just randomly shot up and that he /never/ did anything to deserve it in that IC scenario. Hell the only reason he died was Because RNG Gods decided he would get shot in other places to leading to him dying.

If I hadn't examined the gun he tossed at me immediately I wouldn't have noticed it was all just a ploy, a naked gun so he could run off with my gun and gear. Arty was just trying to be a good person and handle where ICly you guys cannot, and she got called a liar, and got a punishment far worse then the person who accidently did cause the trolls death. Hell even as the Victim I didn't hold any hate! I sympathized with them, even feeling bad that ICly I killed them and dragged them to the nexus because I would hope that this jerk would stop acting like he is and when he does get cloned, come back and hopefully act nicer ICly when its guaranteed this guy isn't and will just be a problem later to others.

Like shit, even Fitchance knows that taking advantage of injured players to steal their gear is not the way to play a bad guy and its just being a dick.

And then finally, why did no one listen to Sham? There was so much miscommunication. I don't think any of you did, or ever would do anything intentional I just think there needs to be some acceptance about how this scenario could have been handled much better, and used as an example to sit down and reflect on how to make yourself the best damn Staff members ever. Don't let your bodies defenses throw up the inner wall to block it out, instead tear it down and reflect knowing noone here wants anything other then for you to be shining more then gold. :-I

[Gelonvia]

In Msay I was told to 'Do what I thought was right' after I read the notes and everything like that. Arty was just as guilty for shooting them as you were, and the main reason Arty got banned was because they have a habit of using lethal force when it isn't needed otherwise things would have gone differently.

That disturbs me, right there that, "Do what I thought was right" part, that's not how you train new staff, new staff need someone who can sit down with them and explain the expectations and train of thought you should have going into these scenarios along with how you should act.

The things the trainer should be saying is, "You need to remember that these are human beings and not autonomous robots on the other end of the PC, treat them with respect and try to lighten the air because most people get defensive on your first PM because they assume immediately they're in trouble. Overall you cannot let them get to you if they're being disrespectful to you, and if they do it's entirely fine to step back take a deep breath and decide whether or not you want someone else to take over or not. Sometimes here you will be alone and forced to handle the situation, in which case if they're being increasingly rude its entirely fine to go ahead and ban them sense we don't tolerate this shit. Remember Apop's expectations, think of it as a customer support line, we are here to provide customer support but also just like a customer support center we need to keep our sense of humanity about the situation. Another thing is to always be Lenient, if someone earns a ban? Lets say its a 3 day ban, say, "I'll tell you what, i'll remove half a day." if this is their first time, or they're new, give them a warning and point them to someone who can try and help them, but if the person is going to far such as murdering everyone, then you throw down the hammer, enough is enough. Before you throw down the hammer though try and see first if they have made any attempts to improving, this means being active in your role to watch whats going on in sync with your team-mates. If they're making attempts then don't ban them, talk with them, if they refuse to listen then they may need a break from the server. Finally your voice /always/ matters among staff, your voice is important and aswell as your opinion, if you feel something is wrong or if your not feeling heard then please come talk to your Head of Staff and if it's about the Head of Staff then follow the Chain up to whoever above them, Communication is key among staff."

^This is what you should be hearing, not you're on your own. You shouldn't be left to panic and squirm in fear of what to do, in worry of what steps to proceed because no one told you anything on how to start. Someone should be sitting down with you the 1st time to coach you through your first observation session and second observation method. Your third Observation session is when you should be let off your leash to do your own thing and see how you handle it, after that they either reserve a 4th session if necessary to determine if you go off your Trial, or they make you a Moderator or remove your trial status. If no one is coaching you then no one can see if you really have any potential.

And i don't want to hear the poor excuse of "Well we have rules there to read." reading rules doesn't make you staff worthy, Staff Worthy is through training so you don't get any bad habits that stick to you later on in your career.

[apophis775]

LET ME SET SOME SHIT STRAIGHT



1. Russel is NOT a troll. He was in fact, a visiting Server Head. The treatment he received in this ENTIRE SITUATION is under investigation. not because he's a server head, but because I'm worried this is how regular new players are treated.
2. I am investigating this PERSONALLY. (Currently digging through 132 pages of logs)
3. Had I been online, and the story is what I've so far seen/been told about, Bans would probably be 2-3 times as long.

Unless your a specialist, you don't fucking shoot someone up for stealing a gun (Even then, you shouldn't shoot them up). That's total bullshit. And to try and make it seem like he's the bad guy one of his first times on the server? That's ELITIST. And I swear, if I see regulars getting preferential treatment, I will end that shit fast.

That whole "clique" thing was what bothered me about other servers, and part of what has killed some RP servers and I will NOT be having that here. It's fine for people to be like "YAY SANCTUM" or "BANTER 4 LYFE" but they aren't directly excluding or being assholes to other players, and the MOMENT I see that, I will end them with the fiery hot fury of a thousand suns.

And from the looks of this, there's a ban going to be extended.

I'm also talking with him to get his full side of the story.

Recent notes for Masterspots:

Code: Select all

Got into a scuffle with a player. It escalated to lethals, and masterspots seemingly tried to space the other player out of the shuttle. Warned against spacing other players. by SecretStamos (HeadSpriter) on Wed, April 13th of 2016 Remove

Failure to escalate - specifically, retaliated with firearms HALF AN HOUR after their last melee interaction with a character. Warned. by Jackserious (Moderator) on Sat, April 23rd of 2016 Remove

Fired at anouther marine for stealing Casca's gun resulting in his death. 12 ban by localizeddownpour (TrialModerator) on Mon, April 25th of 2016 Remove

[Ordukai]

I'm surprised that someone told you that shooting someone who steals your stuff is allowed in an IC scenario. For this situation, that doesn't quite click with me (In case it was me who said that :P). On the other hand, perhaps that makes sense when someone runs off with your gun in the middle of a combat situation, leaving you with only a pistol or something. That being said, he left you with a fully functional M4A1 (Evidenced by the fact that you later used it to kill him <3).

The IC question to ask in this situation is "Is it really worth it to kill a guy because he forced a weapon trade on me?" I'm not sure what you lost out on in that unwanted trade, but it sounds like it was one or two attachments on an M4A1. You wouldn't have even known if you hadn't examined your gun immediately afterwards, Gel. Is that worth becoming Butters from that one south park episode, Artyrial? And for you, Gel, did you need the attachments/special gun so badly that it was worth finishing the job and killing him? It's good that you brought him back for cloning, that shows that you regret what you did, but you shouldn't have done it in the first place. Of course, depending on what gun it was might make this slightly more or less understandable.

I understand not being able to go through the full escalation process, since you couldn't type due to chasing him. Going from disarming to shooting him in the groin is a bit of a jump. There at least, at least, should have been an Aiming step in there.
(Note: Aiming does fall under "Guns" in the lethal escalation situation. Never point your gun at someone you don't intend to kill).

Is this out of order? This is out of order. Artyrial, there's no way to confirm that you aimed at the groin. A headshot, a rightfootshot, and a point blank that missed.

That's not conclusive, and doesn't match up with your stated intention to shoot him only where it wouldn't matter, even if you WERE aiming at the groin. You turned his face into a mangled mess and shattered his skull. That's definitely worth a ban, and more than the 12 hour one which is QUITE lenient especially considering that you have a recent history of poor escalation. I suspect the reason it's so lenient is because the person placing it was a trialmod and unwilling to go as far as he should have for fear of getting his head bit off.

And boy did you bite his (Local's) head off. Like he said, Arty is just as guilty of improper escalation as you are, he's just not guilty of finishing off the target. If Local got this much grief for 12 hours, how much more so for a more proper ban of 2-4 days? And heck, what about your situation in this? According to Artyrial you were just hugged, aliens were closing in or at least very close, then you chase after and gun this guy down for his ("your") attachments? According to him he was just out of ammo and needed a new gun to cover you. And his running away may easily be attributed to aliens attacking, yes?

About the training new staff thing, at the moment we don't have a Headmod who's job it is to train new staff. Could Feweh have guided him through that process? Sure. I haven't looked into what was said at that time in Msay, I'm going based off of what's in the report so hopefully you'll have a better time of understanding what you said and did wrong from YOUR perspective, not just from the view of someone who has the logs at their fingertips. There are a couple of reasons why he might not have guided him through it. Maybe he wasn't aware of the situation and therefore didn't want to jump in and muddle it up further (Based on what Feweh said in his forum post). And, while we're at it, sure "Do what you think is right" isn't the way to train someone, but it is a way to test them for their base reactions. This isn't a paying job, there's no promise of money to bind them here. Staff need to have a basic desire to help/adjudicate, or both.

To put it simply, your paragraph of things the trainer should be saying is good. Maybe even excellent. It captures a lot of what I believe we should do as staff. I particularly like the customer service analogy as I've drawn that one myself. As excellent as it is, you should not be providing it as an example of what Feweh should have said. A 350 word paragraph about the morals and values of being a staff member shouldn't be expected on the spot from staff, unless it's literally their job. If they provide one, great. If not, well... I know some of your own frustration went into the writing of that paragraph which may have colored it in some parts. However, I've said this before and I'll say it again, over-dramatizing the fate of being left alone doesn't help your case (ESPECIALLY as you and Artyrial are chewing him out about his procedures)

[apophis775]

AFter an EXTENSIVE and lengthy discussion with several other staff members, we've reached the conclusion that:

1. Gelonvia was fully in the wrong for killing Arty AFTER he handed the gun back. Even if he stole attachments (of which, I can't find direct proof), you don't gun someone down.

2. Gelonvia's report to the admins when contacted was FALSE, and is believed (by several staff when we discussed it) to be intentionally false.

Code: Select all

 [20:26:07]ATTACK: Casca 'Legs' Orivanna (Gelonvia) shot Unknown (as James Russle) (BDpuffy420) with a the armor-piercing rifle bullet (<A HREF='?_src_=holder;adminplayerobservecoodjump=1;X=155;Y=90;Z=1'>JMP</a>)
 [20:26:09]ATTACK: Casca 'Legs' Orivanna (Gelonvia) shot Unknown (as James Russle) (BDpuffy420) with a the armor-piercing rifle bullet (<A HREF='?_src_=holder;adminplayerobservecoodjump=1;X=155;Y=90;Z=1'>JMP</a>)
[20:26:10]ATTACK: Casca 'Legs' Orivanna (Gelonvia) shot Unknown (as James Russle) (BDpuffy420) with a the armor-piercing rifle bullet (<A HREF='?_src_=holder;adminplayerobservecoodjump=1;X=155;Y=90;Z=1'>JMP</a>)
[20:26:10]EMOTE: Unknown (as James Russle)/BDpuffy420 : <B>Unknown (as James Russle)</B> screams!
[20:26:10]ATTACK: Casca 'Legs' Orivanna (Gelonvia) shot Unknown (as James Russle) (BDpuffy420) with a the armor-piercing rifle bullet (<A HREF='?_src_=holder;adminplayerobservecoodjump=1;X=155;Y=90;Z=1'>JMP</a>)
[20:26:10]EMOTE: Unknown (as James Russle)/BDpuffy420 : <B>Unknown (as James Russle)</B> screams!
 [20:26:11]EMOTE: Unknown (as James Russle)/BDpuffy420 : <B>Unknown (as James Russle)</B> screams!
[20:26:12]ATTACK: Casca 'Legs' Orivanna (Gelonvia) shot Unknown (as James Russle) (BDpuffy420) with a the armor-piercing rifle bullet (<A HREF='?_src_=holder;adminplayerobservecoodjump=1;X=155;Y=90;Z=1'>JMP</a>)

 [20:40:52]ADMIN: PM: Gelonvia/(Casca 'Legs' Orivanna)->LocalizedDownpour/(Spitter (404)): Okay, I can talk now. Yeah, I got up after being taken down by a hugger, and Arty was randomly chasing this marine around? Didn't know why at first, but then I relaized all my stuff was stolen off me. So she shot him once, then the traitorous ass during combat thought tossing me the gun with all the attachments he stole would appease for his shit. I noticed he stole the attachments and not the gun, so I shot his foot. But he died due to his wounds, so I dragged the traitor to the shuttle and made sure his gear was on him.

The logs show MANY shots were fired into him directly, and that he was SHOT TO DEATH by Gelonvia, NOT "died due to his wounds". As shown above, that's 5 hits, in 5 seconds, not a "single shot to the foot" as claimed. There was adequate time to stop firing, and I'm certain there were shots fired that didn't hit. This is not a "single shot" but a deliberate execution.

3. Arty Violated the "Escalation of Force" rule, when he fired a lethal weapon into Russel without proper escallation, or even saying anything (other than a disarm attempt). Due to his "checkered" history with the escallation of force rule, there will be specific conditions (see below)


4. While Russel may have stolen the weapon (intentionally or unintentionally is impossible to determine as this is a "he-said, she-said" situaton) that is an IC situation, resolved through MARINE LAW or PROPER escallation of force.


As a result of those conclusions and nearly 3 hours of discussion, we are taking the following actions:


Gelonvia will receive a 5 day ban for the killing of Arty and the false admin report. This is due in part, to note history.


Arty, will receive a 3 day ban and 30 day "permaban probation" with the following terms: If, from the day of April 29th to May 29th Arty violations any of the following, he will receive a permaban:
1. The Escalation of Force Rule
2. The direct and intentional murder of Any Marine
3. Any offense that is normally punished by a permaban.

For Arty, it is our hope as staff, that he will take this time where he is on probation and think a second time before he acts with lethal force against his allies.


I'm locking this thread, if anyone wishes to appeal these decisions, you must make new appeals.

Sentences are set to begin once this thread is posted.