With the upcoming Whitelist for Commander, what should be the punishment for those who disobey orders?

[apophis775]

It's not about enforcing "marine law" it's about coming up with a way to encourage marines to follow their actual orders and not run off with their own plan .2 seconds after arriving. Far too often, marines disobey orders. The commander needs an obvious, visible method of enforcing that people obey his orders. Something besides a "goon squad" of MPs that get robusted by the fact that 4 MPs vs 60 angry marines is horrible math.

And many of you are missing the point that we are a military themed game. You have to expect, as a commander, that those under you will FOLLOW THEIR ORDERS and not fuck off into the wild blue yonder. IRL, that's enforced by the fact that you get paid and where you live. In a game like this, we need to figure something out to get the same results, within a specific round. I think that SLs who disobey without a LEGITIMATE reason should get job-bans. It's not their job to have their own tactics and bullshit, it's their job to execute the orders of their superior and make sure their squad does the same. If they can't do it, someone else will take that position.

Now, I'm not saying EVERY disobeyed order would get job-banned, but repeatedly disobeying probably would, especially if it becomes a habit. Because IRL, someone who constantly disobeys orders probably wouldn't be made a squad leader.

[LordeKilly]

The thing is, IRL people follow orders because there are consequences. In-game there really aren't consequences other than a single-round. this is a way, to sort of create that same situation.

Then you have them collected by the MPs and tossed in the brig. Banning people for doing something you want them to do is basically becoming baymins and having people kiss your ass just to be unbanned, and executions on the battlefield would never work out for anyone, and we'd have a benny hill chase with someone getting killed, and it'll probably end up being the CO.

I say just have it be part of marine law, and if it's broken, all those involved get brigged.

[Karmac]

>He literally just said suggest something that isn't goon squads of MP's that will get robusted

[forwardslashN]

Then you have them collected by the MPs and tossed in the brig. Banning people for doing something you want them to do is basically becoming baymins and having people kiss your ass just to be unbanned, and executions on the battlefield would never work out for anyone, and we'd have a benny hill chase with someone getting killed, and it'll probably end up being the CO.

I say just have it be part of marine law, and if it's broken, all those involved get brigged.

I have to concur. Banning people over disobeying orders is pretty harsh. On the point, CO's would in theory be well-liked community members. If a baldie doesn't want to follow orders, that's generally going to go poorly for them either way.

[Casany]

Then you have them collected by the MPs and tossed in the brig. Banning people for doing something you want them to do is basically becoming baymins and having people kiss your ass just to be unbanned, and executions on the battlefield would never work out for anyone, and we'd have a benny hill chase with someone getting killed, and it'll probably end up being the CO.

I say just have it be part of marine law, and if it's broken, all those involved get brigged.

The problem with that is then the marines tend to gank the MPs and kill or force them to go back to the station. Mps at this point are afraid to go ground because 1. Aliums and 2. Marines ganking them for trying to arrest the SL who doesn't follow orders

[coroneljones]

How about:
The CO has the ability to trigger a weapon lockdown on marines
To be more specific, the marine's ID, when toggled by the commander, prevents them from firing weapons.
ID gun locks pretty much

[monkeysfist101]

I'm heavily against adding in a mechanic for remotely fucking over the marines and was under the assumption that this was going to be discussed at the dev/staff meeting before making a forum discussion. Right now, marines ignore the CO for two reasons: K/D and the fact that the CO is an unknown element who's in power because of RNG. The whitelist already fixes the second reason and no amount of threats will fix the first. I say we let it play out for a few months before considering an OOC enforcement.

[monkeysfist101]

Sulaco is the first ship with hypersleep systems. It's effects on the human brain are not yet fully explored.

What. That's not even remotely true. Go watch Alien (57 years before Aliens) and Prometheus (Even earlier than that).

[Renomaki]

Right now, marines ignore the CO for two reasons: K/D and the fact that the CO is an unknown element who's in power because of RNG.

The former truly is a big part as to why a lot of marines disobey even the simplest of orders.

As a man who has both led as a commander, a BO, and an SL, I noticed a reoccurring problem with marines getting overly excited the moment they see a hostile of any sort. No matter how much you tell them to come back to you, they will ignore you to give chase to any aliens they see. Hell, I had WAY TOO MANY times where a marine in my squad sneaks off to go killing aliens when I told them to NOT run off without telling anyone.

Players, more often than not, seem more concerned with stroking their ego by getting as many kills as possible than working as a team and being mature members of a squad who you can trust in. I won't mention any names, but I know there are quite a few players in my experience that are REALLY bad with this issue. They may be robust as fuck, but god damn, that doesn't mean you are free to ignore orders given to you.

Shit like this makes being an SL, let alone a Commander or BO, a very distressing experience, knowing that despite all your tactical experience and your mature attitude that should show that you could be trusted to lead them, people just take your leadership for granted and refuse to stay put when you order them to NOT GO ROAMING ALONE...

It just.. makes me not wanna play leadership roles when that shit happens, you know?

[Artouris]

What. That's not even remotely true. Go watch Alien (57 years before Aliens) and Prometheus (Even earlier than that).

That's saying we even remotely follow lore that much. Hell the lore on the wiki itself, the timeline is a god damn joke. This raises a few issues that I won't discuss here.

Honestly, the main problem is that the commander is a element we cant trust. Most often they are incompetent. Hell half the head jobs end up being incompetent. The key to being command, squad lead, anything that requires managing people is being charismatic and clear vision. Hell I half assed that as a SL recently and still had way better results than I expected.

Also saying we're a military themed server and your expected to follow orders that's true. There is a mindset that most civilians have of you know retreat, hide, etc that doesn't work in the military because those are functions that can get you killed. However unless your willing to literally put in a boot camp that players have to pass before they can play, which removes most of these trains of thought for the standard player. It's not going to happen. You're going to have to work with the fact that it is a mindset the majority of players don't have.

Next up is the fact that on this server, unlike real life we have limitations and command is so removed from the battlefield that you can't always follow their orders. No plan survives first contact as its said. SLs have to think flexibly. Sure they should complete the original goal, but they might have to do it a different way. If the orders are both squads have to commit a full frontal assault a hive but one squad decides to split up and flank the hive because the SL believes it's the superior option, he probably shouldn't get punished. But he probably will if command has instant punishment, even if it succeeds later, that SL is fucked.

Hell I'm pretty sure in real life that generals don't personally tell you every step of a attack or expect you to follow it to the letter after its clear it's not going to work upon actually finding out that the enemy is different.

While not perhaps a 100% true, since it is a show. In the show Generation Kill, a LT doesn't go into a poorly lit(actually not even lit) park in the middle of the night from the vastly superior position of overlooking the park considering there was a battle still going on in the city even though he was commanded to. Hell another part was about marking a minefield in the middle of the night which ended badly for the actual people who went to do it.

There are times that command will issue literally non reasonable commands because they never have a clear picture of the battlefield in this game or real life.

If anything we should whitelist SLs and COs but have both have a minor training phase of learning basic tactics and reasoning. That way COs could rely on SLs to make the right choices. And the SLs can trust the COs aren't going to issue the most retarded commands ever.

Basically, sorry about the long post but been writing this as i've been thinking about it.

Otherwise, pick charismatic people for CO and SLs, train both of them to competence, ensure bother trust each other. Done. If both are charismatic then people will listen. A trained CO will be able to think to fill in his lack of information and issue generalized orders. Trained SLs will take those orders and perhaps execute them in their own way but get those orders done. People will follow them since both are charismatic, likeable and therefor trustable.

EDIT: FIXING PHONE BEING SHIT.

[Monoo]

-snip-

If you don't want a goon squad of unrobust MPs to take down insubordinate marines, then make them so they aren't a goon squad. Give them an overhaul.

As it stands MP players need something to do and there's no reason they shouldn't be able to apprehend a rogue marine.

As for the military themed game idea, I don't think being a military game necessarily means we're a perfect military sim. CM is pretty relaxed when it comes to the appearance and conduct of the Marines, and I don't think the player base would want it any other way. The sense of individualism is what drives the community.

Some people having the willful stupidity to ignore orders and get killed is part of that freedom. I would rather it not be restricted for the sake of more respect for in-game authority.

[Szunti]

I agree with banning SLs who tend to not follow orders especially if they ignore them silently. They should set an example for marines.

Most of the time the problem isn't with the SL though, but with the marines under them. You can't follow the order and defend the LZ if you can't even get your squad to rally up because they already ran off to the river to fight.

[Scrat505]

Although an IC punishment for disobeying orders might be preferably to many, I currently just do not see that being feasible right now. MPs right now have almost no power when it would come to punishing disobedient marines due to the fact they're hilariously outgunned and outnumbered if they wish to make an arrest, especially if their suspect is an SL or well liked. And with the absence of MPs, you basically have no repercussions for fucking off from your squad besides the SL yelling at you angrily. Allowing field executions by SLs is an option, but IMO having your boss pop one of your buddies in the head, unless that buddy nearly got your squad killed, will just make people even more defiant and hostile towards their SL.

With that being said I do believe there should be some OOC punishment for those marines that consistently disregard orders to rush off on their own and get themselves killed.

[LordeKilly]

The problem with that is then the marines tend to gank the MPs and kill or force them to go back to the station. Mps at this point are afraid to go ground because 1. Aliums and 2. Marines ganking them for trying to arrest the SL who doesn't follow orders

The thing is marines shouldnt be killing MPs, if they just gun them down, they would not be actig like marines, but just antagonists. If they do that, that should be a bannable offense. Regardless, the mp stun weapons should be buffed then, becuase it currently takes about 5 taser stuns to get a marine down. If you get a hit on then, they shoukd be down for the count.

[apophis775]

Someone threw out the idea of a "tranq rifle" that the MPs had. It would shoot syringes of anesthetic to take marines down.

[forwardslashN]

If anything we should whitelist SLs and COs but have both have a minor training phase of learning basic tactics and reasoning. That way COs could rely on SLs to make the right choices. And the SLs can trust the COs aren't going to issue the most retarded commands ever..

Maybe we should have a mandatory "bootcamp" map they have to go through before they're allowed to play SL or command. But that's probably too ambitious.

[Egorkor]

there're also marines that run off themselves and get the job done instead of listening to lowkey SLs. banning for that is silly as fuck. ooc punishment for IC things is silly as fuck. it's time to fucking stop.

[Renomaki]

there're also marines that run off themselves and get the job done instead of listening to lowkey SLs. banning for that is silly as fuck. ooc punishment for IC things is silly as fuck. it's time to fucking stop.

So, what, you think it should be GOOD to disobey orders if you don't like your SL?

Doesn't matter if you hate your SL or not, you shouldn't just go willy nilly on your own. Most of the time, it screws over marines more than anything.

People with this logic is WHY Apop is considering more OOC options for punishment, because so far, marines don't really care a lot of the time about disobeying orders. If they don't agree with their SL, chances are they'll just walk out and do their own thing... And then die, because a lot of them tend to after going on their own.

[JMJ_99]

commander can activate implants put in every marine with option for tracking ,stuning or to explode insudordinate marines depending on situation. second idea is just overhaul the MPs

[Egorkor]

So, what, you think it should be GOOD to disobey orders if you don't like your SL?

Doesn't matter if you hate your SL or not, you shouldn't just go willy nilly on your own. Most of the time, it screws over marines more than anything.

People with this logic is WHY Apop is considering more OOC options for punishment, because so far, marines don't really care a lot of the time about disobeying orders. If they don't agree with their SL, chances are they'll just walk out and do their own thing... And then die, because a lot of them tend to after going on their own.

yeah, I believe that if your SL is doing nothing, doing the wrong thing or just a retard in general and say, two other squads need help/are getting fucked somewhere, in my opinion it's completely reasonable and logical to take the volunteers or the entire squad to go help them, because if you won't, you'll die either way when the xenos come after your ass. if the CO's worth his whitelist access, he'll understand and approve of it. it's not about the OOC hate, it's about how they act ingame.

[Szunti]

So a CO and SL is only worthy if they play like YOU except them to play and give orders that YOU would give. Because YOU and only YOU know how to play this game. This is the mentality why we have this thread.

[Derpislav]

So a CO and SL is only worthy if they play like YOU except them to play and give orders that YOU would give. Because YOU and only YOU know how to play this game. This is the mentality why we have this thread.

No, they're worthy even if I disagree with them moderately. I'm going to follow their orders even if I know of a more efficient way as long as they're pretty okay. However, there are the "FULL RETREAT OMG" commanders ignoring the fact marines have strong defensive positions and can reform without returning to Sulaco. Or leaders that tend to forget about the existence of other squads/trying to be Comissars ordering their men to bayonet-charge the impenetrable enemy positions. Of course pointing that out to them and arguing will be my first, second and third option. But if the commander refuses to acknowledge that he misjudged the situation due to, well, not being there, and goes "do it or court martial" instead of taking the few seconds to explain why his plan makes sense...

In real life I would carry out the orders right away unless they have GAPING holes in them, but that's because no one incompetent would get in a command position IRL. And I know that they're taking commanding seriously. Here, well...

[Bigchilly]

The thing is, IRL people follow orders because there are consequences. In-game there really aren't consequences other than a single-round. this is a way, to sort of create that same situation.

This, just hand out jobbans, nobody takes a Commander for real.

On that note:

I played a round where we sat in the FOB and did nothing, and when told to go somewhere we joked around the CO and BO.

Nothing came up about this, but IRL if you did this you are getting discharged and can face jailtime.

Keep in mind that people will have to make apps to become a commander, and be good at role to be one, so you wont get a baldie and be forced to follow their orders.

[Telegnats]

I think this would be a nightmare to make absolutely sure everyone is following Commander's orders exactly, but I guess since 'Legitimate reason' sounds so arbitrary that it might as well be 'any reason', it shouldn't be too hard. It should help populate the Xenos side too, since a ton of marines are probably going to get fucking jobbanned within a week of this rule being put in.

And let's look at IRL compared to this fucking game, okay?

We're PLAYING on a SERVER whose codebase is based off a tile-based atmospherics simulator, in a universe where a bunch of marines separated into this arbitrary thing called a "squad" in a spaceship (whose logistical issues concerning Requisitions is so dysfunctional that it should be considered inoperable) that runs off technology that doesn't exist fighting monster alien bugs (THAT REGULARLY SPOUT "AYYYY" AND DANCE A LOT) that breed solely through pushing their young down the throats of things from earth even though the species is currently on a planet that is most likely several thousand AU (For reference the Voyager 1 Probe is 116 AU I believe) from our Sun.

I mean, what the fuck. The Sulaco apparently uses 'bluespace' which by Baystation's definition IS A FUCKING ALTERNATE DIMENSION POPULATE SOLELY BY "DARK MATTER" but it doesn't have the fucking capabilities to scan a planet unless it asks some fucking AI nicely. And you might think this argument is fucking stupid because you have to make sacrifices for the benefit of the gameplay. To that I say, I fucking agree.

[Heckenshutze]

The same procedure when a Xeno doesn't follow Queen orders.

A warning, then, a ban.