With the upcoming Whitelist for Commander, what should be the punishment for those who disobey orders?

[Biolock]

What if Commanders could leave notes on player's profiles. They'd be a special note dictated as a "Commander Note". It'd be something that allows a Commander to have some sort of PERMANENT effect on a player's profile should they decide to do some dumb, RPless shit. Or perhaps they could use some sort of verb that allows them to suggest a note to the admin, and the staff can choose whether or not it sticks. No one wants negative remarks on their profile, and disobeying your commander would surely get you something akin to that if not much worse.

Idk, just spit-balling an idea.

[Telegnats]

I think that leaves far too much potential for abuse, unless you're willing to look at every note that a commander gives out and verify it. If the admin team IS willing to deal with it, then that idea might have some merit.

[monkeysfist101]

What if Commanders could leave notes on player's profiles. They'd be a special note dictated as a "Commander Note". It'd be something that allows a Commander to have some sort of PERMANENT effect on a player's profile should they decide to do some dumb, RPless shit. Or perhaps they could use some sort of verb that allows them to suggest a note to the admin, and the staff can choose whether or not it sticks. No one wants negative remarks on their profile, and disobeying your commander would surely get you something akin to that if not much worse.

Idk, just spit-balling an idea.

That's not a bad idea.

[Psilo]

Even though I'm afraid that having only "good" commanders all armed with the current meta and best tactics will make the rounds more boring, rinse and repeat sort of affairs, I like the note idea. Hell I'd love to see a system in place for CO being able to award medals for players or recommend them to be awarded. I could also see there being a "recommend for demotion" option that, after getting 3 of, would automatically make getting SL impossible for a set amount of time. Lets say 24-48 hours or something.

Problem with all this is that "not following commands" itself is a huge gray area.
Something like setting up FOB in place X seems clear cut, right? Until the squads only engineer gets taken by the Xeno, the team chases after and gets locked in battle in a different place.
Now a CO could take a look and think that there is no FOB and the squad is off fighting somewhere else. Job ban? Write a note that says: "Does not follow orders."?

My lil rant not worth 2 cents.

[Derpislav]

Even though I'm afraid that having only "good" commanders all armed with the current meta and best tactics will make the rounds more boring, rinse and repeat sort of affairs

Last round I played as CO, I got told basically "your tactics sucked, but you heavily averted metagaming, so solid CO". It appears that the community can still value that.

[Psilo]

Last round I played as CO, I got told basically "your tactics sucked, but you heavily averted metagaming, so solid CO". It appears that the community can still value that.

I guess I should have more faith in the community.

[coroneljones]

Last round I played as CO, I got told basically "your tactics sucked, but you heavily averted metagaming, so solid CO". It appears that the community can still value that.

Last time i did something like that it usualy ended in:
-A whole squad mutinying upon landing
-A whole squad not doing their assigned patrol route upon landing and then blaming command
-Rambos, not baldies.



It really depends on whos on

[Youbar]

Problem with all this is that "not following commands" itself is a huge gray area.
Something like setting up FOB in place X seems clear cut, right? Until the squads only engineer gets taken by the Xeno, the team chases after and gets locked in battle in a different place.
Now a CO could take a look and think that there is no FOB and the squad is off fighting somewhere else. Job ban? Write a note that says: "Does not follow orders."?

In this instance, the squad should have asked for permission to pursue the enemy. The squad was told to hold engineering, and until being informed they are allowed to do otherwise, should continue to fulfill that objective.

[Psilo]

In this instance, the squad should have asked for permission to pursue the enemy. The squad was told to hold engineering, and until being informed they are allowed to do otherwise, should continue to fulfill that objective.

While asking for permission the squad would have lost their only chance to follow the order to establish a FOB. No engineer. No defenses. No FOB. You won't have time to stop and ask permission when someone is being dragged away. You either try to save them or you don't. Most of the time people try to save them. If it's a hunter or a runner that swallowed the engineer there is little chance to catch up anyway. I hope I never end up in the same squad with you if you think you need permission to try to save your fellow squad mate being dragged away. Just saying.

[Youbar]

While asking for permission the squad would have lost their only chance to follow the order to establish a FOB. No engineer. No defenses. No FOB. You won't have time to stop and ask permission when someone is being dragged away. You either try to save them or you don't. Most of the time people try to save them. If it's a hunter or a runner that swallowed the engineer there is little chance to catch up anyway. I hope I never end up in the same squad with you if you think you need permission to try to save your fellow squad mate being dragged away. Just saying.

Engineers are replaceable. There are as many as eight at round start, and as the commander, you can easily forward a request to another squad to continue the construction of FOB fortifications.
Personally, I think ensuring the integrity of the FOB, which is your main source of supplies and manpower, is far more important than pursuing a hostile over a single marine. They may be an engineer, but walls are only effectively as long as there are bodies to support them.

[Psilo]

Engineers are replaceable. There are as many as eight at round start, and as the commander, you can easily forward a request to another squad to continue the construction of FOB fortifications.
Personally, I think ensuring the integrity of the FOB, which is your main source of supplies and manpower, is far more important than pursuing a hostile over a single marine. They may be an engineer, but walls are only effectively as long as there are bodies to support them.

I see your point and I do get it. But seeing that how this perfectly disciplined squad wont react after one gets dragged away of their line of sight, what's stopping the Xeno from doing it repeatedly until there is no squad left. If the force is not met with force or consequence there is little stopping them. Or they can just all huddle together securing a very small area and shooting each other once the Xeno run in. But getting back to the main point. I don't think a SL can be blamed for trying to keep his men alive. Sometimes it takes split second decision to do so. Sometimes it can derail the Commanders plan. Like they say:"Every plan is good until the first shot is fired."

[Heckenshutze]

I see your point and I do get it. But seeing that how this perfectly disciplined squad wont react after one gets dragged away of their line of sight, what's stopping the Xeno from doing it repeatedly until there is no squad left. If the force is not met with force or consequence there is little stopping them. Or they can just all huddle together securing a very small area and shooting each other once the Xeno run in. But getting back to the main point. I don't think a SL can be blamed for trying to keep his men alive. Sometimes it takes split second decision to do so. Sometimes it can derail the Commanders plan. Like they say:"Every plan is good until the first shot is fired."

Marines are expendable, as a CO you can't risk an entire squad for a single marine not even for the SL.

[Telegnats]

That doesn't make sense. If marines are replaceable and therefore every part of a squad is replaceable, then why is a squad considered irreplaceable? And if a squad is irreplaceable and the squad relies heavily on one member, doesn't that mean that member is irreplaceable?

[Heckenshutze]

That doesn't make sense. If marines are replaceable and therefore every part of a squad is replaceable, then why is a squad considered irreplaceable? And if a squad is irreplaceable and the squad relies heavily on one member, doesn't that mean that member is irreplaceable?

I don't consider "irreplaceable" any squad as Commander. But i understand what you saying, but what I'M saying is that you can't make an entire squad jump into suicide because "Hey John Smith got captured and he's fucking VIP Diamond helmet, go get him!" and screw everything. Only special circunstances can change this

[Telegnats]

That's fair. I'm not sure I like that however, because it's easy to interpret as "Never chase if someone gets hugged" which while it's not what you're advocating it's easy (For me at least) to twist into that.

[Youbar]

That's fair. I'm not sure I like that however, because it's easy to interpret as "Never chase if someone gets hugged" which while it's not what you're advocating it's easy (For me at least) to twist into that.

Interpret it as "chase within reason". When defending a position, there is nothing wrong with pursuing the enemy for a short distance in an attempt to recover the fallen comrade. The decision to ignore defensive orders, and lead a whole-squad offensive to recover this single marine, however, is borderline suicidal, and places the entire operation at risk because the FOB is now empty.

There will be times when the commander's orders are misinterpreted, and the actions of the squad will be in the grey area in terms of whether they've disobeyed them. A defensive order turned into a single hostile being pursued by the entire squad is not a misinterpreted order. I think that if people are warned, job banned, and banned for ignoring orders, it'd only be done in clear-cut cases of repeated refusal.

[LocalizedDownpour]

I do not advocate banningmarines for not follow g orders. Seeing as humans can choose to obey or not there needs to be a heavy IC consequence however.

The reasons xenos get banned is because they are a hive mind. They literally have no free will.

[Karmac]

Once cloning is removed, perhaps allowing field executions to put some real fear into the players, do what they're told or face round removal, or some kind of Commissar-style role to ensure men on the ground are obeying their real orders, and not retreating when they shouldn't be, y'know the old 'put something scarier than the enemy at the back so they have no where to run but where their told' trick.

[KingKire]

In my opinion, there should be more ways a commander can reward a good player then more ways they can punish bad players. We can only go so far to "punish" those who fail to follow orders.
- Executing for failure: Its difficult to do, and it causes problems, and tends to create alot of bad blood situations for everyone around. Executions are needed for the dramatic problems, but they should be reserved for only those dramatic problems only.
- Jailing: This also causes problems, it doesnt really "fix" a bad player, and it also tends to drag everyone down as well.
- Removing equipment: This would be a good solution, but unfortunately, its easy to just grab spare weapons, armor, radios, etc once a marine hit the ground. Give a man only a knife, and he'll find someway to stab his way to a gun.
i dont have time to really draw out my thoughts, but we should really think about giving stronger carrots, maybe semi permant multi round rewards or such, "promotions" that opened up paths, priority choice, idk. something that made players really think that, mmm, i should try to behave for a this good reason.

tldr, we currently have a very limited palette to deal out punishment or reward good behavior, lets have a small effect on the long term of a players choices.

[NoahKirchner]

But why have a whitelist in the first place :(.

[Biolock]

Executions are a bad idea; it'll just cause persistent inter-marine conflict. Especially if the marine is a regular, their squad will fight tooth and nail to keep their squadmate from the brig, even more from death.

Story time:
-Alex Crossman broke law
-Alex Crossman ran to planet
-Alex Crossman gets caught by MP.
-MP proceeds to get murdered by every single marine within a 20 tile proximitiy.

Commanders need a non-mechanical, efficient, persistent (carries from round to round) way to punish marines for insubordination. Otherwise, there's no real incentive to obey your CoC.

[Jay Burns]

oh, guess who was that MP....

[Monoo]

Executions are a bad idea; it'll just cause persistent inter-marine conflict. Especially if the marine is a regular, their squad will fight tooth and nail to keep their squadmate from the brig, even more from death.

Story time:
-Alex Crossman broke law
-Alex Crossman ran to planet
-Alex Crossman gets caught by MP.
-MP proceeds to get murdered by every single marine within a 20 tile proximitiy.

Commanders need a non-mechanical, efficient, persistent (carries from round to round) way to punish marines for insubordination. Otherwise, there's no real incentive to obey your CoC.

What's all this shit about marines murdering MPs? People do that?

If my friends are ever arrested I let it happen because I don't want to get court martialed or some shit. I've never seen any other marine try to kill an MP either. Fuck is even the logic behind that? Anyone that murders an MP for no good reason other than "muh relations" deserves a 3 day ban. How's that for a fix to the problem?

[LordeKilly]

What's all this shit about marines murdering MPs? People do that?

If my friends are ever arrested I let it happen because I don't want to get court martialed or some shit. I've never seen any other marine try to kill an MP either. Fuck is even the logic behind that? Anyone that murders an MP for no good reason other than "muh relations" deserves a 3 day ban. How's that for a fix to the problem?

I don't think you were around to witness all the fuckery that would happen if either Xur, Mark Hanford or Mike Hernandez were jailed. It was literally a death sentence, brig would have a squad and a half dedicated to blowing up the brig and anyone wearing the MP uniform. That's why banter was infamous for the longest time. It's really stopped now, it's the occasional 2-3 marines banging on windows and screaming about social justice.

But yeah, I agree with you on that. MPs should be able to take marines that disobey orders from the ground and brig them, and if any marines try and object and kill the MP, they should be banned. It's blatant grief, I don't understand why it doesn't work like this currently.

[Feweh]

I don't think you were around to witness all the fuckery that would happen if either Xur, Mark Hanford or Mike Hernandez were jailed. It was literally a death sentence, brig would have a squad and a half dedicated to blowing up the brig and anyone wearing the MP uniform. That's why banter was infamous for the longest time. It's really stopped now, it's the occasional 2-3 marines banging on windows and screaming about social justice.

But yeah, I agree with you on that. MPs should be able to take marines that disobey orders from the ground and brig them, and if any marines try and object and kill the MP, they should be banned. It's blatant grief, I don't understand why it doesn't work like this currently.

Ya, we've put a stop to that fucking bullshit a long time ago.