Make Predator 'Pacts' With Aliens a Jobbannable Offense

[Surrealistik]

In The round this budded from, the predators WERE using the underdog rule. Five xenos to 40 marines, so the predators hunted the marines to make sure there wasn't complete anihalation. Marines got salty because "muh victories" and this happened. You do know that 2 young runners can fuck a pred who doesn't cloak, and 4 can kill them for the simple term of tacklespam. Preds usually tend to ignore xenos because usually they CANT WIN against a SLIGHTLY competent xeno. They aren't always gonna come to the marines rescue, nor should they. I just see a salty marine player who wants the predators to always fight for marines, which they shouldn't

Oh, oh and also if the aliens attempt to kill the pred usually 2-3 will die from plasma launching before they tacklespam and slash to death, so xenos tend to ignore preds just like marines tend to ignore preds

Apparently, wanting Preds to actually obey the underdog rule and not murderbone Marines about exclusively, or make ridiculous, uncharacteristic deals with Xenus = LOL PREDS SHOULD FIGHT XENUS ALL THE TIME.

Don't be ridiculous.


By the way, the fact that Preds are playing to what is mechanically beneficial to them as opposed to what a Pred might be reasonably expected to do is a big part of the problem.

[Shyguychizzy]

I don't think it's in the spirit of RP to ban RP. I also don't think predators should be going around making deals with xenomorphs, but it shouldn't be forbidden either. It has happened before on the server from what I'm told, but I have yet to see it in person, and I've been in a lot of predator rounds.

Never have been instances in which predator has made a pact regarding xenomorph or actively fighting for said faction or vice versa though there has been rounds in which basically xenos have back off predator lodges at time. Mainly start of the rounds, sometimes xenos swarm the freshly new constructed Predator Lodges or even through force made it so that xenos would back down. At one round I was in, we predators basically had to hold off the north eastern caves, which was referred to as Cold war as it was a stand off for territory, which RP was involved, as queen ordered xenos to back off entirely. AS they have been harrassing this Lodge which was a fortress, later 0verrun.

[Casany]

Apparently, wanting Preds to actually obey the underdog rule and not murderbone Marines about exclusively, or make ridiculous, uncharacteristic deals with Xenus = LOL PREDS SHOULD FIGHT XENUS ALL THE TIME.

Don't be ridiculous.


By the way, the fact that Preds are playing to what is mechanically beneficial to them as opposed to what a Pred might be reasonably expected to do is a big part of the problem.

OK, let me ask you this: If the xenos are at 10, and marines are at 50, which side should the predator hunt? if the xenos are at 15, and the marines at 50, again, which side? and if the hive is at FIVE and the marines 40, which side? Most of the answer SHOULD be marine since in all these examples the marines SHOULD be winning. There are rarely times when xenos outnumber marines. Now, if the xenos had, lets say, 25 on high pop with 60 ish marines then yeah, hunt the xenos all you want, but if the xenos are 15 or under and marines are 50 or over you want to hunt the MARINES.

And your saying the fact preds are playing a strategy where mechanically they dont get destroyed. you? I mean, no offense but your a huge powergamer who always does this. It makes sense as, a predator wouldnt KILL himself just to maybe kill a runner or hunter. Dont start that shit, because unless the predator cant be tackled there is no way it can fight more then 1 xeno without being destroyed or using its cloak or plasma. I mean, if you were playing a role as important and once in a day as predator you wouldnt suicide rush into the hive because they are winning over the marines. They dont usually pick fights with big groups of marines (unless marines fire first) so why should they with xenos? your setting a double standard here

[Surrealistik]

OK, let me ask you this: If the xenos are at 10, and marines are at 50, which side should the predator hunt? if the xenos are at 15, and the marines at 50, again, which side? and if the hive is at FIVE and the marines 40, which side? Most of the answer SHOULD be marine since in all these examples the marines SHOULD be winning. There are rarely times when xenos outnumber marines. Now, if the xenos had, lets say, 25 on high pop with 60 ish marines then yeah, hunt the xenos all you want, but if the xenos are 15 or under and marines are 50 or over you want to hunt the MARINES.

The ratio of marines to aliens is balanced at '3ish to 1' according to Apop (that's _actual_ fighting personnel, _not_ support), so that should be the guiding basis for determining when to switch sides. Beyond that, there are times where it's painfully obvious that the marines are at a decisive disadvantage, especially if FOB is being crushed.

And your saying the fact preds are playing a strategy where mechanically they dont get destroyed. you? I mean, no offense but your a huge powergamer who always does this. It makes sense as, a predator wouldnt KILL himself just to maybe kill a runner or hunter. Dont start that shit, because unless the predator cant be tackled there is no way it can fight more then 1 xeno without being destroyed or using its cloak or plasma. I mean, if you were playing a role as important and once in a day as predator you wouldnt suicide rush into the hive because they are winning over the marines. They dont usually pick fights with big groups of marines (unless marines fire first) so why should they with xenos? your setting a double standard here

Predators should probably be more resistant to stuns/knockdowns if they're going to be a truly impartial force as they're expected to be, or otherwise be given tools to deal with Alien disable spam. That said though, Predators are held to a higher standard and code of conduct than any other player, which is why it's a whitelisted role. Sometimes that means yes, you have to take that suboptimal risk.

[Casany]

The ratio of marines to aliens is balanced at '3ish to 1' according to Apop (that's _actual_ fighting personnel, _not_ support), so that should be the guiding basis for determining when to switch sides. Beyond that, there are times where it's painfully obvious that the marines are at a decisive disadvantage, especially if FOB is being crushed.

So your saying that if the aliens are crushing the marines, the predators should be FORCED to protect them? That brings me back to my original point of you only wanting preds to help the marines, not hurt them. That's what I'm getting anyway

[Surrealistik]

So your saying that if the aliens are crushing the marines, the predators should be FORCED to protect them? That brings me back to my original point of you only wanting preds to help the marines, not hurt them. That's what I'm getting anyway

If we're going to have an underdog rule that means anything, yes; likewise when Marines are crushing Xenus at their hive, so this assertion that I think the 'preds should only help the muhrens' is nonsense.

[Casany]

If we're going to have an underdog rule that means anything, yes; likewise when Marines are crushing Xenus at their hive, so this assertion that I think the 'preds should only help the muhrens' is nonsense.

And what IM trying to say is yes, they should follow the underdog rule but they shouldn't be FORCED to help one side if they just want to stay out of it

And I'll bring it up again: this whole suggestion came from a round where they were following this rule as the marines were about to crush the last xenos, and got salty when some preds tried to hunt them

[Sarah_U.]

I'm giving it a -1 despite the fact I completly aprove that predators making deals with xenos is bullcrap.
They should constantly think xenos are gonna try to manipulate them, and xenos trying to look down on them is disrespect they cannot take.

If a predator is offered a deal of non-agression; In my opinion despite the fact that in the lore the xenos have been CONSTANTLY hostile to predators and so the opposite, the possibility is there, but should be said with a "I'm kicking your ass in 5 minutes" and not a "We'll be friends, lets not hurt eachothers.". FURTHERMORE, the pact could only be done by and ---ELDER--- if it involve more than you.
I've several times broken deals and pacts with a third party in-game. Simply because other preds rolled me in trying to get it done for all of us. If a predator so baddly want to chat and be friend with a xeno, I'll consider him weak for not trying to crush the creature's morale and prove his strenght. Ultimately requesting a duel for his lack of combatibility and the stain he's giving to his clan's honor; Or simply mock him endlessly, saying that he is pitifully admitting his weakness.

Along those lines. Surely I will ask admins for duelling rights before doing it as I'd rather not do it without conscent (Sensible possition and such).


SO YEA! All in all, that's the reason why I think pacts and such are RPly okay. It's possible that a predator or elder allows it, but only for a certain time or untill a shift in the balance happen. Even then, I favor the "I'm not even caring about your stupid deals" approach as it marks your word and vow to uphold it. In the end, it's all RP for me, and I'll check for those that goes beyond that margin and start sipping tea with xenos.

[Toroic]

I used to defend the sandstone temple extremely aggressively as a predator, but allowed xenos to operate freely outside of what I claimed as my territory, and picked my target off at my leisure. After killing a few and communicating "Stay out or die" the message was received and a smart queen decided to go after humans first, and by the time they would've inevitably turned on me I had finished my hunt.

The goal of predators is to claim a trophy or trophies and survive. Dying may be honorable, but it's not smart. Nor is it easy to survive if a pred pisses off the hive and they come swarming. So temporary non-aggression informal pacts make a lot of logical sense.

[Surrealistik]

And what IM trying to say is yes, they should follow the underdog rule but they shouldn't be FORCED to help one side if they just want to stay out of it

And I'll bring it up again: this whole suggestion came from a round where they were following this rule as the marines were about to crush the last xenos, and got salty when some preds tried to hunt them

In otherwords, in your view Predators should obey the underdog rule essentially at their whim whenever it is most expedient for them, making it not much of a rule at all, which is precisely one of the problems; good chat.

And no it fucking didn't; get the fuck out of here with this bullshit allegation of this thread stemming from a singular round of saltiness; you straight up don't know shit kid. I just fucking said I'm all for Preds following the underdog rule stringently, _including_ when marines are shreking the Xenus, so step the fuck off with this nonsense. In fact, you're so embarrassingly wrong that I've never personally experienced such a round (if it happened during a round I was playing in I was on the Sulaco and had no idea it was occurring).


@ Sarah: Xenos should never be extending formal pacts/deals of non-aggression to Predators. NAPs should be unspoken and as a consequence of some roleplayed event, like a Predator slaughtering multiple Xenus such that the Hivemind learns that you probably shouldn't fuck with them.


@Toroic: No one is asking the Predators to barrel into the middle of a Xenu swarm.

What I'm positing is very simple and common sense:

A: Predators should either be forced to obey the underdog rule, or it should be eliminated (because it's basically pointless if it's effectively/de facto optional). I'm all for Predators obeying the underdog rule intelligently; i.e. hit and run guerilla warfare vs overwhelming numbers, or attacking isolated targets rather than jumping in the middle of a stun spam Xenu clusterfuck.
B: Predators should not be making formalized deals with the Xenus, nor should Xenus and Predators be straight up ignoring each other on what is effectively a meta or mechanical/powergaming basis (Predators: oh I'd rather hunt humans exclusively because Xenus have too much disable spam; Xenus: oh I'd rather not bother with the Predators even before the hivemind is aware of their capabilities because I'm totally not about that dying bit).

[Casany]

I don't think you UNDERSTAND here what I'm saying. Predators SHOULD NOT be forced to attack EITHER side if they DONT WANT TO ATTACK. When they are actually hunting, they can do it, but during lets say an FOB assault or hive assault, if they don't want to fight EITHER side and just want to watch, they should be ALLOWED to, what your implying is that they should never be allowed to watch whats happening and always attack the stronger side. Atleast, that's what you sound like your saying to me

[Surrealistik]

I don't think you UNDERSTAND here what I'm saying. Predators SHOULD NOT be forced to attack EITHER side if they DONT WANT TO ATTACK. When they are actually hunting, they can do it, but during lets say an FOB assault or hive assault, if they don't want to fight EITHER side and just want to watch, they should be ALLOWED to, what your implying is that they should never be allowed to watch whats happening and always attack the stronger side. Atleast, that's what you sound like your saying to me

I understand what you're saying perfectly and I disagree. If we're going to have an underdog rule, it should actually be in effect and enforced, which means that yes, they should be forced to intervene on behalf of the losing side (which doesn't mean barreling into the middle of the enemy like an idiot; you can whittle them down with guerilla warfare/go after isolated targets in the case of overwhelming numbers). Either that or we get rid of the rule because it's not a rule so much as a weak suggestion that is essentially meaningless.

[Casany]

I understand what you're saying perfectly and I disagree. If we're going to have an underdog rule, it should actually be in effect and enforced, which means that yes, they should be forced to intervene on behalf of the losing side (which doesn't mean barreling into the middle of the enemy like an idiot; you can whittle them down with guerilla warfare/go after isolated targets in the case of overwhelming numbers). Either that or we get rid of the rule because it's not a rule so much as a weak suggestion that is essentially meaningless.

I disagree with that. I think, if predators want to stay out of a fight to ya know, go do some RP or build, they should be allowed to. I think when they are actually on the hunt they should follow this rule, but when they don't want to fight anything, maybe to heal or mine or build a lodge, then they shouldn't be forced to, lets say, come to marines aid when the marines are losing the FOB defense or come to the xenos aid when they are losing a hive defense. and if this goes through I forsee a lot of salt coming from this if the predators were forced to always fight, especially during FOB assaults when the xenos are being pelted with plasma and bullets and swords and machetes.

[InterroLouis]

I'd like to step in with some behavior I've seen from predators. I've seen them literally fight beside a xeno against humans, not attacking each other at all. I've also seen a predator literally dismantle what little defenses the marines had left at their FoB to get a couple sheets of metal...so they can sit in a comfy chair while they watch the FOB fall. Xenos attacking said FoB while completely ignoring the uncloaked predator sitting in a plush chair.

[Sarah_U.]

I actually tend to slap a few plasma bolts at xenos when they start taking-over the landing sites. Marines don't even try to hold despite the heavy casualties the xenos endure and still go up.

My point in this is; If the FOB is seemingly falling at any point, marines will cower away and even if the pred helps it'll be pretty much meaningless and grab the whole hive's agro.
Otherwise, I'd like to point out if the suggestion is entirely based on underdog rule, that I'm for it, but idc how enforced it gets as I myself follows it as best I can. Just not really sure if I want any changes to be done to it though.

PS: I've sometimes fought next to xenos, but the second the combat is over my interaction begs to differ. (The only situations I team is when the XENO itself expressely rush the marines while they attack me and I can use it at my advantage to both get agro and damage done for me.)

[Sailor Dave]

I don't see any problem with the underdog rule being enforced while they're on the hunt. It's always been kind of a muddy thing, honestly. I do, however, have an issue with xenos not being allowed to communicate with predators. I roleplay with the predators every single time I fight them, and talking is a big part of that.

As for the deals.. generally, this doesn't come in the form of an explicit "truce", but more often the Queen explicitly ordering xenos to avoid Predators out of fear. This makes sense from a gameplay perspective, because xenos will regularly get themselves killed against the preds, but it almost always lasts for the whole round. Xenos are going to have a natural inclination to be hostile to the predators, and I think that should be encouraged to some degree.

[Surrealistik]

I disagree with that. I think, if predators want to stay out of a fight to ya know, go do some RP or build, they should be allowed to. I think when they are actually on the hunt they should follow this rule, but when they don't want to fight anything, maybe to heal or mine or build a lodge, then they shouldn't be forced to, lets say, come to marines aid when the marines are losing the FOB defense or come to the xenos aid when they are losing a hive defense. and if this goes through I forsee a lot of salt coming from this if the predators were forced to always fight, especially during FOB assaults when the xenos are being pelted with plasma and bullets and swords and machetes.

Predators need to be held accountable for the impact they have on the game, and the fact that they can often decide its fate; the worst is when they both directly cause a side to lose, and then sit back and watch said side burn. Personally I've always disliked them: thought they were a bad idea albeit cool concept; one that would be terrible in practice for the reason that it is basically a king maker largely subject to the whims of individuals, particularly if those individuals are robust and can make full use of the Predator's capabilities. I hate the fact that they are basically accountable to nothing, save a loosely (at best) enforced honour code and subjective views of how a predator should act. In general, the entire thing is a clusterfuck of controversy, which in the end has the practical outcome of the Predator's fun and gameplay coming at the expense of everyone else's. I warned that this sort of kingmaking would happen, and generate salt, that the predators would prize their own experience above the rest of the playerbase no matter the filtration process (human nature bro) and look at what happened.

That said they're not going anywhere, but if they're going to be around, the horrible commonplace play which puts more value on mechanical and personal success than RP (the latter of which is supposed to be emphasized for Preds), as well as the incentives which encourage that need to go. If Predators became more resistant to Xenu stun spam and they could no longer communicate with Xenus, I suspect we'd see a lot less problematic one sided victimization of marines and pact making with Xenus because the mechanical incentives would have shifted so dramatically.

Also for those who say that RP should occur between Xenus and Predators, and is a good thing, that's ridiculous; there is essentially almost no basis for communicating with Xenus; this almost never happens; they hate and hunt each other, not hold conversations. I don't even think they have the ability to communicate formally in canon to begin with.

[Casany]

I really have to disagree. From what I've seen, usually the three preds in the round don't really do much aside from kill 1-4 marines and 1-6 xenos. They make a lodge, stalk around, duel the occasional guy, but they don't usually have a huge impact on the round. Preds only generate salt from people who play to win, which isn't thecpurpose of this server. People have been removed from pred for breaking the honor code. Trystan, coronel, Abby, spheretch, gelenova, ETC. so the whole arguement that preds don't face consequences is mute. Hell, even the senior admin was removed from pred. So yeah, I disagree

[Surrealistik]

I really have to disagree. From what I've seen, usually the three preds in the round don't really do much aside from kill 1-4 marines and 1-6 xenos. They make a lodge, stalk around, duel the occasional guy, but they don't usually have a huge impact on the round. Preds only generate salt from people who play to win, which isn't thecpurpose of this server. People have been removed from pred for breaking the honor code. Trystan, coronel, Abby, spheretch, gelenova, ETC. so the whole arguement that preds don't face consequences is mute. Hell, even the senior admin was removed from pred. So yeah, I disagree

Preds have plenty of impact on the round when in the course of dueling dudes, they end up harming others in the process, disrupting squads and their objectives, or worst of all, explode inside and breach the Campaco. I know several rounds that were ruined explicitly by Predator Sulaco breaches.

Also, I didn't say Preds don't face consequences for violating honour code, I said that it's loosely enforced and tends not to come down on Preds unless they do something blatant and egregious.

Lastly, I don't think anyone can deny that Preds lean towards Xenus because that's where the mechanical incentives lie, and that these mechanical incentives should be changed because people are ultimately going to respond to them; you can pretend that human beings aren't influenced by material incentives until you're blue in the face (or dead as Communism did), but they will be, even if it's on a subconscious level. As stated by myself and others previously, Preds are vulnerable to stuns, but scoff at damage which is the only thing marines can put out with the solitary exception of HE SADAR rockets (their only practical stun vs Preds); guess who they're going to tend to hunt down, and who they're going to make pacts with?

[Casany]

I agree that preds are to susceptible to xenos so yeah, id love a fix for that. But as to your point that the honor code is loosely enforced; if it was loosely enforced not many people would have already been removed from whitelist, or that's what I think. Ima +1ing this anyway though because I agree that it should be enforced a little harder.

[Feweh]

Anyways, this is closed.

Preds already know not to finish off or target the losing side. Really not sure what the over-all issue was.