Official Cloning Removal Update Discussion Thread

[MrJJJ]

Yes, it is.

Before this, you only had a minute + plus a few seconds of grace period before you couldn't defib anymore. This is of course not mentioning the incredibly higher damage threshod. I don't know why you're bringing up husk and suicide since you could defib them before cloning removal. Heck, ask Ticker. I brought him back to life after a boiler turned him to a gray husk.

You couldn't defib chestbursters before this so it's pointless to bring it up. The heart damage is irrelevant, give them peridaxon or dexalin and inaprovaline and send them up to be treated.

40 seconds, thats how many you had before you couldn't be defibbed

And "incredibly higher damage threshold" is probably around 300-500, which won't take long to get to.

You could clone people who chestbursted, so its not that pointless, the heart damage IS relevant, if doctors are actually willing to give you peridaxon and nobody shits on your with the law and says "no you don't need it", also you gonna need a hell lot more than dexalin and inparovaline to help them

Let's also not forget thats assuming you died near the medic, and he found your corpse or was brought to it within 5 minutes, good luck with that, its also assuming no xeno will drag your corpse off to fuck you over, forever, nobody is gonna bother to drag corpses as much because you will never know if its a trap set up by a hunter and the corpse can't actually be revived, or if its someone who can still be rescued.

[nerocavalier]

40 seconds, thats how many you had before you couldn't be defibbed.

No, it was a minute. You additionally had a few seconds after the skull icon changed.

And "incredibly higher damage threshold" is probably around 300-500, which won't take long to get to.

Brute damage rarely exceeds 300. It's around 250 at max for a corpse assuming a Crusher doesn't take their time to constantly trample it. Burns, on the other hand, can go pass 300 due to the oxygen damage and burn damage. All of which can be reduced with adv. trauma or burn kits.

You could clone people who chestbursted, so its not that pointless, the heart damage IS relevant, if doctors are actually willing to give you peridaxon and nobody shits on your with the law and says "no you don't need it", also you gonna need a hell lot more than dexalin and inparovaline to help them.

It's pointless to argue about cloning chestburst when we're talking about defibs which could never do them. Doctors can either give you peridaxon or do surgery on you. Worst case, ask to get scanned and nag at them until they heal you. I question why someone would refuse to treat you because of "the law". If it still doesn't get treated, then just deal with it. You're lucky to be alive again and if the heart damage is that severe, you'll just die again without treatment.

Let's also not forget thats assuming you died near the medic, and he found your corpse or was brought to it within 5 minutes, good luck with that, its also assuming no xeno will drag your corpse off to fuck you over, forever, nobody is gonna bother to drag corpses as much because you will never know if its a trap set up by a hunter and the corpse can't actually be revived, or if its someone who can still be rescued.

If a xeno wants you out of the round, you're getting out of the round. If no one can find your corpse and bring it to your medic, then that's really unfortunate.

Xenos have and will drag away marines from each other. They already drag away corpses when they can. A lot of recovering wounded and corpses is taking chances. Either you succeed, or you die. Nothing changed.

[Karmac]

As Wookie mentioned, aside from Hugger Decaps, the change to cloning and the buff to defibb just meant there were more alive men on the ground rather than corpses at an LZ, and even after a few xenos saw marines getting defibbed none of them really went out of their way to gib/drag them off to the moon. And this didn't lead to marines outnumbering xeno, it was just a very useful tool and more effective in the field than wasting 20 minutes getting someone cloned and back to being combat ready

[Feweh]

how will this happen? people will have no way to know if someone's timer is up, so they'll just be left to die anyway.

You see someone die... you run up to him and bring him back and defib.

Pretty straight forward.

Also its 5 minutes BYOND time, which is actually about 7mimutes actual time.

[Joe4444]

You see someone die... you run up to him and bring him back and defib.

Pretty straight forward.

Also its 5 minutes BYOND time, which is actually about 7mimutes actual time.

and if they don't see them die? they'd have no way to actually tell if the timer is up or not, considering the defib has limited charges before it needs to be recharged, would you risk losing one of those defibs on a marine long dead? perhaps have a thing that when they've been dead for more than five minutes, you can examine them where it would say something about them being unable to be defibbed

[Edgelord]

Can someone tell me proper defibbing technique? Do you need to give em dexalin or anything prior to trying?

[killinkyle]

So after playing one round, only real complaint I have is if this is going to stay in, nerf the amount of monkeys and wildlife on the planet by a shitload. Give them, 5-6 max extra larva.

As it stands, aliens just go for the face and don't even bother infecting anymore. Hugger combat has reached a new level of meme cancer.

[Feweh]

and if they don't see them die? they'd have no way to actually tell if the timer is up or not, considering the defib has limited charges before it needs to be recharged, would you risk losing one of those defibs on a marine long dead? perhaps have a thing that when they've been dead for more than five minutes, you can examine them where it would say something about them being unable to be defibbed

So whats changed?

People already go to great lengths sacrificing marines to rescue special marines who they know are dead and trapped.
Now you just check to see if a dead marine infront of you can be defibbed, thats it.

Theres less risk now than there was previously.

[nerocavalier]

and if they don't see them die? they'd have no way to actually tell if the timer is up or not, considering the defib has limited charges before it needs to be recharged, would you risk losing one of those defibs on a marine long dead? perhaps have a thing that when they've been dead for more than five minutes, you can examine them where it would say something about them being unable to be defibbed

Medics can tell, just drag the corpse to them and hope for the best. Defibs can also be recharged now.

Can someone tell me proper defibbing technique? Do you need to give em dexalin or anything prior to trying?

Before this, it was reduce damage to below 200 with burn/ trauma kits and defib. Then apply chems if they live.

Now the range should be 400 so reduce it below that and due to increased time you can likely afford to pump them up with chems before defibbing.

[Swagile]

Can someone tell me proper defibbing technique? Do you need to give em dexalin or anything prior to trying?

viewtopic.php?f=94&t=10868

Sur updated his Commandments thread posted above and has techniques on proper defibbing.

[Rahlzel]

Lore is the absolute last priority in anything. Lore is literally the /least/ important part of designing CM /AT ALL/. Gameplay comes first, emergent story next, possible abuse third, and LAST AND VERY LEAST comes the lore.

Just wanted to mention that this is inaccurate.

Lore is a solid 2nd place. Every time we consider any change, lore is discussed, but due to the nature of the top-down game of spessmen, gameplay occasionally trumps lore. For example, Facehuggers used to have their own AI and would hunt down human players (lore). We removed this for gameplay reasons.

As for hugger combat - I'd personally like to see our new Xeno Combat system take priority, which would remove hugger combat and make the gameplay more lore-friendly. This might include pain damage instead of a disarm stun, which will incapacitate humans and not hurt them, allowing them to be dragged back to the hive with little interference. This would also enable us to remove swallowing humans, which also isn't lore. It'll ensure that marines that stick together have a chance to fight back against Xenos dragging away their comrades instead of swallowing them and then zipping away in a vent or tunnel.

Disclaimer - All of the above is subject to change. What you should take away from this is that we're very intent on improving lore and gameplay to make it somewhat fair for both teams. But as always, we're shooting for about a 60% to 70% win rate for Xenos. If we were purely lore-based, Xenos would win 99% of the time - they usually decimate opposition. But for gameplay reasons (because fear/horror is fun) and balance, we're trying to hit a sweet spot that isn't always easy to hit.

[NoahKirchner]

Just wanted to mention that this is inaccurate.

Lore is a solid 2nd place. Every time we consider any change, lore is discussed, but due to the nature of the top-down game of spessmen, gameplay occasionally trumps lore. For example, Facehuggers used to have their own AI and would hunt down human players (lore). We removed this for gameplay reasons.

As for hugger combat - I'd personally like to see our new Xeno Combat system take priority, which would remove hugger combat and make the gameplay more lore-friendly. This might include pain damage instead of a disarm stun, which will incapacitate humans and not hurt them, allowing them to be dragged back to the hive with little interference. This would also enable us to remove swallowing humans, which also isn't lore. It'll ensure that marines that stick together have a chance to fight back against Xenos dragging away their comrades instead of swallowing them and then zipping away in a vent or tunnel.

Disclaimer - All of the above is subject to change. What you should take away from this is that we're very intent on improving lore and gameplay to make it somewhat fair for both teams. But as always, we're shooting for about a 60% to 70% win rate for Xenos. If we were purely lore-based, Xenos would win 99% of the time - they usually decimate opposition. But for gameplay reasons (because fear/horror is fun) and balance, we're trying to hit a sweet spot that isn't always easy to hit.

I see whatcha mean, but the examples you gave above pass both the gameplay and the lore "test". I was talking about having lore at like the #1 or #2 spot when evaluating a feature, and literally removing or adding features just because it doesn't fit in the lore. You guys (at least from what I have seen) don't do that, so I was sort of guesstimating positions (but I think I still got my point across).

[Rahlzel]

I see whatcha mean, but the examples you gave above pass both the gameplay and the lore "test". I was talking about having lore at like the #1 or #2 spot when evaluating a feature, and literally removing or adding features just because it doesn't fit in the lore. You guys (at least from what I have seen) don't do that, so I was sort of guesstimating positions (but I think I still got my point across).

We're not in the habit of removing non-lore features unless we have a lore-ish replacement. Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean. What have you seen that makes you say "You guys (at least from what I have seen) don't do that"?

[NoahKirchner]

We're not in the habit of removing non-lore features unless we have a lore-ish replacement. Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean. What have you seen that makes you say "You guys (at least from what I have seen) don't do that"?

When I said that you guys don't do that, I was referring to removing features because they aren't in the lore but impede gameplay. It was a good thing

[Recounted]

Discuss.

Defibs got buffed so I ain't that mad about it. But that hugger combat needs to GO

[wastedfate]

Facehuggers used to have their own AI and would hunt down human players (lore). We removed this for gameplay reasons.

I think that would be neat. The fact that they just sit there as is, and wait for me to shoot them is silly. :o Maybe once the hugger combat is removed, you guys could maybe consider adding that again?

[Rahlzel]

I think that would be neat. The fact that they just sit there as is, and wait for me to shoot them is silly. :o Maybe once the hugger combat is removed, you guys could maybe consider adding that again?

I would certainly like to, yes. Perhaps keep the speed somewhat low on them so they're a threat but not overwhelming. Or perhaps when Hugger combat is removed we'll be able to keep them fast and scary since they won't be able to be carried by most Xenos. It might make Carriers a bit OP though. We'll have to work it out.

[doodeeda]

It would be neat if, through examine, you could tell if a body has been dead for under 5 minutes. Maybe, "This body is still warm" or something.

[wastedfate]

Remove cloning, shitty circlejerk involving it and it does not fit within the current lore.

Have you seen Alien Resurrection? Just curious. And yes, I do get that they had like, six or more failed attempts just to clone her.

[Renomaki]

While I was unable to experience it for myself, I feel both sad and happy that cloning is gone.

On the one hand, not having cloning anymore means that scientists will have less to do, and if you die and there is no one trained to use a defib nearby within the time limit, you are dead for good, FOR GOOD... FOR GOOD GOOD.

On the other hand, though, now as a medic, I have reason to BRING a defib now, and medical staff won't have to juggle dead bodies anymore. It'll be the field medic's job to do the defibbing, while the Sulico medical staff mainly have to worry about tending to the wounded and keeping them from dying in the first place. It always slowed the medical team down having to both clone and perform surgery at the same time, worse since most people log out/join the xenos when they die anyway, so most of the time, less than half of the dead people you get can be cloned anywho...

I wanna give it more time though, let it be refined first.. It is still new and still might need tweaking.

[UltimateShrekFan]

As long as decap and limb removal get toned waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down, I am ok with it.

[ReadyReactor]

It has really fucked marines over, medics on the field were already overwhelmed with just injured now they also have to waste time reviving Joe Baldie who at best will come out still damaged, more supplies wasted, meanwhile injured Bald Johnson has fallen into crit or got hugged and dragged away (probably both) because the medic was too busy reviving. It has put a blunder on a role that was already pretty overwhelmed which will result in 1) Medics will not give that much of a fuck unless they're in the FoB or holed up in a good position with not many other injured around needing their attention. 2) Medics being meta targeted by xenos as they are even more important now 3) Regulars not bothering to pull corpses anymore since they have no way of telling how much time they've been dead and slowing yourself by pulling a corpse ,exposing yourself and anyone near you to a xeno attack, just to discover the medic can't revive him is a bet none is willing to take.

[MrJJJ]

No, it was a minute. You additionally had a few seconds after the skull icon changed.

40 seconds or a minute, still a same thing, really low time, does it matter?

Brute damage rarely exceeds 300. It's around 250 at max for a corpse assuming a Crusher doesn't take their time to constantly trample it. Burns, on the other hand, can go pass 300 due to the oxygen damage and burn damage. All of which can be reduced with adv. trauma or burn kits.

What you just described is what is gonna happen, crushers will constantly trample corpses, spitters and praets will constantly spit on them to get that limit, also said "adv trauma and burn kits" don't reduce damage by a megaton, its like 5-10 per each one, this is also assuming you can find said corpse, or have someone find it for you, which chances are aren't great, and you will probably be more busy and concerned trying to help the already injured marines instead of a possibly more dead than 5 minute marine.

It's pointless to argue about cloning chestburst when we're talking about defibs which could never do them. Doctors can either give you peridaxon or do surgery on you. Worst case, ask to get scanned and nag at them until they heal you. I question why someone would refuse to treat you because of "the law". If it still doesn't get treated, then just deal with it. You're lucky to be alive again and if the heart damage is that severe, you'll just die again without treatment.

This assumes
1. Doctors are competent and exist
2. You actually got back to Rasputin alive and well after being revived
3. They actually bothered to make peridaxon or made one when asked (Hint: They usually don't)
4. Gave peridaxon to medics

Also, cloning was removed and now the defib is "new" cloning, and it can't do alot of stuff that cloning has actually done, like CLONE people who died from CHESTBURSTING, and it didin't matter how much damage was dealt either, and you could have been cloned even if you were dead for 4 hours or more, there was no real limit.

If a xeno wants you out of the round, you're getting out of the round. If no one can find your corpse and bring it to your medic, then that's really unfortunate.

Xenos have and will drag away marines from each other. They already drag away corpses when they can. A lot of recovering wounded and corpses is taking chances. Either you succeed, or you die. Nothing changed.

Yes, something changed, marines can rarely now get back their forces, which means no matter what they do, they will always lose people, and they will lose now a hell lot more than they used to lose before, and now, since there is a "extreme damage" limit, xenos don't even need to drag away corpses, since they can just spit at them or crush them 10 more times to make you unable to be revived.

Also, "if a xeno wants you out of a round, thats too bad, suck it" is a shitty thing to say, if i want a xeno out of a round, it would take me the entire round to do so because xenos have around 100 respawns, yet this isin't allowed for marines, who already suffer poorly from incompetence, FF, and prone to having to deal with a lot of xeno fuckery, yet xenos are super powerful, have a few things that they can use to make their survival much greater (looking at you, moonwalking crushers) and abilities that marines could dream of and curse every day, and have almost always not just a second chance, not just a third chance, but a ridiclously huge amount of "second chances" that they can use.

[Simo94]

maybe increase the number of medics? iono

[Feweh]

This is actually turning out really well and the general playerbase is enjoying it.

Seeing a lot more teamwork and squad mechanics going on.