April 2 constructing changes discussion

[immaspaceninja]

Since the new door-baricades will be made from plasteel, it might be a good idea to heavily increasy the ammount of plasteel engineers get.

[Rahlzel]

Honestly, I don't want tables to go away, otherwise what is the point of having all that metal if the only cover you can make are plasteel barricades and sandbags?

We need a middleman of cover, something with their own benefits to help marines that costs only metal, isn't as strong as plasteel but can take a bit more punishment than sandbags.

Tables as of now are vital to base construction, the meat and potatos of any FoB. After all, Plasteel is expensive, and Sandbags can only do so much to protect you until a crusher just rams right through or a boiler spits a juicy one over them and forces everyone out.

We plan on increasing the amount of plasteel to allow for more metal barricades, but I think you make a fair point about tables. I wouldn't want to have 10 full stacks of metal with no way to make defenses. I brought this up with our devs for discussion.

[Karmac]

We plan on increasing the amount of plasteel to allow for more metal barricades, but I think you make a fair point about tables. I wouldn't want to have 10 full stacks of metal with no way to make defenses. I brought this up with our devs for discussion.

It's easy just buff racks.

[Swagile]

The problem with these wide sweeping changes is that you haven't adjusted the xeno meta accordingly.

Good engineers in old Engineering (before updates) could make super forts that could last 1 hour or even more against constant xeno assault (entire hive) as long as they are well manned and/or have turrets in all directions.

Removing tables, racks, and making Engineers rely even MORE on Requisitions will make super forts a thing of the past, which gives less incentive for experienced Engineers to give a shit about making a decent FOB. Hence we'll see more rofl stomps by Xenos as Marines can't even get a decent resting spot on planet and will constantly have to retreat to Almayer since they have no where to base at that will last at least 30 minutes at the MINIMUM.

Until xeno meta is changed, these crushing Engineer nerfs will make playing as Marine hell unless you meta rush EVERY SINGLE ROUND, even though such a concept is being constantly frowned upon both by admins (rules) and developers (LV Fog).

[Karmac]

I'm already seeing players express their opinions about crushers by just not building any decent kind of FOB under the pretext of "It'll get destroyed in seconds". So Swagile has a point there.

[Crab_Spider]

I'm already seeing players express their opinions about crushers by just not building any decent kind of FOB under the pretext of "It'll get destroyed in seconds". So Swagile has a point there.

Egrilles can still be crushed without stunning crushers right?

[Jaketeaking]

Sandbags are still un-orderable at this point, racks are useless but the wire hasnt been added, and walls take i think 1 less step than R-walls to deconstruct. i still use girders in my FOB's, because flames can pass through them, so xenos taunting get taught. the mine nerf hurt, and crushers just steamroll through anything you make, barring sandbags and metal barricades. this isnt how it should be, yes fob building should be challenging, but its becoming harder and harder to get the fob to a "basic" level, never mind decent.

[Rahlzel]

New Trello card quote after some adjustments from player feedback:

3 types of barricades:
1. Sandbags - Empty bags orderable by RO, but cannot be crafted otherwise.Entrenching tool to get sand/dirt. Bag + sand/dirt = placeable sandbag.
2. Metal Barricades - Built using metal. Similar in strength to sandbags.
3. Plasteel Barricades - Strongest, but built using a rare material. Crushers do big damage to them but cannot plow through in one hit. Able to retract to allow relevant mobs to pass through it (like false walls).

Barbed wire
Can only be placed on the above barricades (including tables below) to reinforce them and cause damage to Xenos hitting them. This causes cades and barbed wire to join together as one object so that breaking the cade also breaks the barbed wire. This will prevent potential abuse of buidling a cade > adding wire > deconstructing cade > leaving the wire > repeat, and resulting in a field of barbed wire.

Tables
Will still be flippable and used as basic barricades, along with placing barbed wire on them, but they can only be crafted at an autolathe.

Checklist:
Get rid of false walls
Ensure robots/synths and other relevant mobs are able to interact with moving cades
Sandbags should be orderable from the RO
Ensure balance of plasteel availability on ship and planets.

Looks like there's some debate on whether or not to allow barbed wire to be placeable anywhere. Everything else is also subject to change as we move along.

[Swagile]

Eh, this still doesn't change the fact that the xeno meta currently can plow through a decent FOB, and the fact that relying MORE and MORE on requisitions without giving said department a way to get extra points makes FOB's pointless as getting even a decent FOB up will require too much time, effort, and points to bother with when xenos can bull doze through it halfway through its construction.

[Rahlzel]

First, the reason behind sandbags being orderable was for cargo jobs to have more to do. Second, we're not planning on making sandbags expensive to order. Third, cargo points still regenerate, don't they?

As for "xeno meta" (I'm a bit confused as to how it's metagaming), we can adjust cades to be studier if this is a real concern. Though they shouldn't be TOO sturdy since we don't want layers of barricades 6 tiles deep and Xenos having too tough of a time getting into them.

[NoahKirchner]

First, the reason behind sandbags being orderable was for cargo jobs to have more to do. Second, we're not planning on making sandbags expensive to order. Third, cargo points still regenerate, don't they?

As for "xeno meta" (I'm a bit confused as to how it's metagaming), we can adjust cades to be studier if this is a real concern. Though they shouldn't be TOO sturdy since we don't want layers of barricades 6 tiles deep and Xenos having too tough of a time getting into them.

Xeno meta as in, meta strategies which both sides use. Not against the rules metagaming, just the most effective way to play within the rules.

[Rahlzel]

Xeno meta as in, meta strategies which both sides use. Not against the rules metagaming, just the most effective way to play within the rules.

Got it, thanks.

[Swagile]

First, the reason behind sandbags being orderable was for cargo jobs to have more to do. Second, we're not planning on making sandbags expensive to order. Third, cargo points still regenerate, don't they?

As for "xeno meta" (I'm a bit confused as to how it's metagaming), we can adjust cades to be studier if this is a real concern. Though they shouldn't be TOO sturdy since we don't want layers of barricades 6 tiles deep and Xenos having too tough of a time getting into them.

By xeno meta I mean like, gameplay wise; I don't mean actual metagaming --- noah got me.

The current "meta" is to get a bunch of crushers and plow through marine defenses like its swiss cheese.

And cargo points do regenerate, but due to the way you are structuring Engineering, you are putting more and more of a load on Requisitions yet not compensating for it by giving them a higher point regen rate / ways to get points by shipping things. Hence why getting anything decent out of Requisitions will be very hard after the first few drops and will heavily burden the Marines since they won't really have decent defenses to rely upon.

I also agree with barricades not being too sturdy, but until Crusher is fixed, 6 layers of barricades is the MINIMUM you currently need to have a decent FOB.

Source: All decent Big Red barricades have AT LEAST 5-6 layers of barricades down at LZ-1; 3-4 outside, 2 inside, 2 layers at Tcomms is ideal.

[Rahlzel]

Fair enough. Then we'll have some work to do on the balance end of things. Any thoughts on the rest of it?

[Swagile]

Metal Barricades either should cost a lot of metal or be weaker than Sandbags, considering the effort and rarity (Cargo orderable) that is put into Sandbags.

By time I mean you have to manually fill sandbags at the FOB of choice (filled sandbags can't be backpacked last I checked).

If Metal barricades become a thing, you won't need tables, since a table's greatest feature is its anti-boiler properties, quick setup, and ability to stack its defensive bonus with other defensive structures (r-barricades, racks, etc.). Give metal barricades a chance to stop boiler gas and make it as fast to put up as a table and you can phase tables out completely.

Id tell you more but this is off the top of my head + its 2:52 in the morning so im not exactly creative right now.

[Karmac]

Ya, filled sandbags do not fit in backpacks.

Knowledge.

[Jaketeaking]

Personally im strongly against tables being built at an autolathe, as it makes little sense from any perspective really.
The plasteel barricades, i assume those are the ones currently in game as metal barricades? if so, crusher shouldnt be able to charge through it, make them have to slash it, otherwise i feel it would become about as effective as a wall.
im unsure as to the debate behind the wire, why not let it be placed anywhere? make it like the sandbags, meaning 5 pieces of bardbed wire to make, to break it down, wirecutters but there is a loss of 1 piece every time its cut down?
as i understand it the concept is good, perhaps have 2 seperate functions? one where it performs as you wrote, with the barricades, but if it isnt attached to a barricade it becomes like xeno sticky resin, but deals no damage.

[Sleepy Retard]

Just another engineering nerf. What you've suggested (removing cheap tileblocker) is not of any help, and some damage to xenos who run up to barbed wire is relatively pointless and minor given the fact that they can just pounce away and heal.

What I seriously suggest is that there is some form of tileblocker again, because that's much better than just having a few butter knives sticking out of your metal barricades. This prevents aliens from doing massive damage over barricades, and it gives more space between marines and xenos. By having just something that damages them, you pretty much ensure that aliens will run up, slash something a few times and run away. Unless the barbed wire did a GOOD amount of damage, and actually stunned them in the process, it's going to be useless and aliens are going to be able to deal more damage to the marines than the marines are going to be able to deal to them. I suggest either adding a stun to the barbed wire, enough to kill the alien if there are enough marines around, or not actually implementing this change at all. This is just another straight up engineering nerf, and it devalues FOBs heavily. It's not uncommon to see a 100+ person round with 8 medics but maybe 4-6 engineers, because it's not even worth playing anymore. Your fobs are made out of fucking paper compared to crushers and boilers, and you're seriously considering making them weaker.

So. Generally what I'm getting at is, make sure there is a viable tile blocker. There needs to be a GOOD buffer between xenos and marines, and a pointy piece of metal is not that. Crushers can destroy everything with a few charges, so I'm sure if you added a tile blocker that can still be destroyed by crushers it would be perfect in your eyes. This prevents literally every other caste from easily running up and killing a marine. I'm fine with the caste whose job is to make FOBs worthless by existing make FOBs worthless, I'm not okay with having no buffer between xenos and marines.

Tl;dr, make barbed wires stun and deal a hefty amount of damage, or literally just add a viable tile blocker to block tiles.

[immaspaceninja]

I dont know what you guys think about it, but i'd like plasteel baricades being able to stun charing crushers and ravagers again, since:
1. They're made to protect you against those charges
2. Marines can be hit by any charge if they're standing on the same tile as the baricade. And they do it really often, no matter how hard you yell at them.

[TopHatPenguin]

If we do get barbed wire as something an engineer can use I'd say have it function similarly to sticky resin for humans and aliens and allow it to be used outside and on barricades that way it just doesn't become straight up redundant if there are no barricades left. (also seems pretty weird to only be able to have barbed wire on top of cades/defences.)


In short:

Usage: Defensive wire coil used on barricade.
Construction: Combine X amount of rods to a cable coil to form a defensive wire coil.
Deconstruction: Use wirecutters to deconstruct back down to defensive wire coil.
Function: Similar to sticky resin when placed not on barricades, potentially damages what mobs move through it and slows. Or just simply slows them down.

Addon suggestion:
Maybe additional Building: If user wants to make free standing barbed wire defence then a defensive wire coil will need to be combined with planks/metal sheets.
Maybe Function: would function similarly to Sec/engi tape to roll out, probably with a build timer.

[Swagile]

Bump, considering the new update fucked FOB's even more due to no stuns for the important T3's, allowing them to steamroll FOB's.

[kroack]

I don't play marine very often, but I have noticed a certain decline in quality of FOBs ever since egrilles went away. I remember egrille FOBs that could hold for 2 and a half hours.

It does seem that aside from sandbags, not much has been given to combat engies. And sandbags are pretty easy to destroy as a T3 if you get behind marine lines.

[MrJJJ]

SO we have now a resin spitting prae, and immune to explosives ravager and crusher, and if there is a prae/drone around, they become even MORE tanky

Need i say anything else?

[Casany]

I just don't go engineer. And I doubt many people really wanna unless their baldies. FOBs are basically useless at the moment

[Ikmalmn]

I don't play marine very often, but I have noticed a certain decline in quality of FOBs ever since egrilles went away. I remember egrille FOBs that could hold for 2 and a half hours.

It does seem that aside from sandbags, not much has been given to combat engies. And sandbags are pretty easy to destroy as a T3 if you get behind marine lines.

Though I don't think it's primarily because of the removal of the E-Grilles that gave the decline of the longevity of the FOB. FOB's were still standing strong even with it's removal. From my opinion, the longevity of a FOB all lies in the engineers themselves. But this doesn't stop from it being totally wrecked by crushers and the likes, which thankfully, have been "nerfed". Either way, FOB's all are dependent on the person who made it. With a new batch of rookies at this moment, they usually don't think ahead, since, they can't really anticipate much from their lack of experience. But experienced engineers however, knows the in's and out of everything, so they know what to fortify. Hence why some FOB's last and many don't.