Discussion On Command-Civilian/Medical Interaction

[Snypehunter007]

Drug Distribution: Distribution of medical compounds (including combat stimulants) without authorization from the CMO and Acting Commander. Includes space drugs, which are never authorized to be distributed.

[Swagile]

This is why I suggest marine law is followed via its spirit, not its actual ruling.

If we followed every part of marine law by its ruling we'd have to brig half of the marines before they dropped.

[Snypehunter007]

Maybe you should stop breaking IC law then? This seems simple.

[EXOTICISME]

Well perhaps it's time to start asking for permission from CMO and acting commander before you start distributing drugs, if they refuse for whatever reason you can start conviencing them which lead into an RP, perhaps you can try sweet talking them explaining the benefit of it to the marines, or perhaps smuggle said drugs to the squad medic risking yourself that you might get arrested if you got caught. This just create a new RP possibilities for everyone (unless you are that lazy to type in a 2d spessman arrpee, you probably deserve brig)

[Renomaki]

I don't think I ever recall something like peri being an illegal medical compound. I always assumed that the law was focused more on combat stimulants (Such as hypanzine) or recreational drugs (such as LSD)

Drugs like Peri and Tramadol seem more like standard issue medical drugs. Maybe it was the fact that the doctor combined Peri and Dex together to create an uncommon and thus non-standard issue drug that needed a green-light before being allowed planetside?

For all I know, maybe Jack was trying to kill off the common "Lets combine two drugs together to make super drugs" meta that a few chemists tend to employ in order to give marines some extra edge. I know back in the day some chemist used to make advanced combat stims that were so overpowered that they had to bring the hammer down on them and nerf them into the ground so that they may never be abused again. Nowadays mixing drugs is much more risky and requires proper testing and permission before handing them out.

[EXOTICISME]

The drugs itself is not illegal. Distributing it without an authorization is.

[Renomaki]

The drugs itself is not illegal. Distributing it without an authorization is.

I guess this means now everytime we make uncommon drugs, we have to let command know first before stocking the fridges I suppose.

A bit annoying, but eh, code is code.

[Steelpoint]

Hence why I was suggesting that we make it that Doctors don't need to ask permission to give Combat Medics genuine Medical Drugs.

I understand this is a edge case. Since this round I was in was the first round I've ever seen a Commander go nuts over Medbay issuing Peri. But in this round the Commander went well out of their way to ensure everyone in Medbay was arrested and charged for the horrible crime of giving Medics Peri.

Every single medic Guide and the wiki page Guide tell Medics to get Peri and similar drugs from Medbay, perhaps if we're going to arrest Doctors and Medics for this then we should rewrite all those guides to tell otherwise.

[NoahKirchner]

Peri is easily one of the most important medicines for medics to use, especially post cloning removal. Making it illegal to distribute is dumb, the law is clearly put in place to keep people from dealing drugs, not to dissuade them from distributing incredibly useful medicine to their medics. The phrasing is poor, it is a dumb law and it makes no sense. Combat stimulants make sense, drugs make sense, a medicine that is essential to keeping marines alive on the planet, one that will mean that they will almost 100% die without constant supervision is the equivalent of making attachments require the RO and XO to sign off on. If they're both going to do it every time, then what's the point besides an unnecessary group to jump through? Any time they don't do it, it's just to piss people off, and you ban people for purposefully slowing down the round and pissing people off. (Tom 'Houston' Sagaz.)

[shyshadow]

Hence why I was suggesting that we make it that Doctors don't need to ask permission to give Combat Medics genuine Medical Drugs.

I understand this is a edge case. Since this round I was in was the first round I've ever seen a Commander go nuts over Medbay issuing Peri. But in this round the Commander went well out of their way to ensure everyone in Medbay was arrested and charged for the horrible crime of giving Medics Peri.

Every single medic Guide and the wiki page Guide tell Medics to get Peri and similar drugs from Medbay, perhaps if we're going to arrest Doctors and Medics for this then we should rewrite all those guides to tell otherwise.

An amazing reason to not add this, doctors heavily impact the effectiveness of the marines. If doctors are inexperienced, we don't need a restriction on them. Let them do their job and make medical chems, it takes time to make chems in the first place. Doctors barely even make them in the first place so why even put a restriction? For Roleplay? A Roleplay > Gameplay? We're a Medium-Roleplay server, not a High-Roleplay. This gamemode is heavily focused on combat. Let doctors do their thing, if they're good then people are happy if they're bad. They're bad.

[Snypehunter007]

You guys still aren't listening, it doesn't matter "how important peri is for medics/doctors", if we didn't stock it in the common Medvends, it isn't a common drug that you NEED.

Also, we aren't saying that the law straight up bans the use of peri, we are saying you can't DISTRIBUTE the pills without permission.

You could always do it anyways, like Exotic said, but your run the risk of being arrested.

[TehSpoderman]

You guys still aren't listening, it doesn't matter "how important peri is for medics/doctors", if we didn't stock it in the common Medvends, it isn't a common drug that you NEED.

how exactly is a pill that fixes organ damage not needed?

[Snypehunter007]

how exactly is a pill that fixes organ damage not needed?

The same way how the 4-5 stacks of metal that Squad Engineers used to steal from engineering at round start before we fixed access wasn't needed.

[Swagile]

The same way how the 4-5 stacks of metal that Squad Engineers used to steal from engineering at round start before we fixed access wasn't needed.

It actually IS needed, especially with the wall update, and most good RO's ask CT's / CE for their extra materials to send down via Rasp the moment Engineers drop on planet.

[Steelpoint]

The main point of my argument is that I would suggest to alter the Marine Law so that Doctors are free to distribute whatever Medical Drugs they have or make to qualified Combat Medics without needing prior permissions of the CMO or acting Commander, but they do still need permission to distribute Medical Drugs to any non-Combat Medic, and they are still forbidden to distribute Space Drugs.

Peri or Oxycedone is not illegal to possess, and both are commonly used by Combat Medics. 95% of the time Commanders don't even blink a eye when Doctors are giving PeriDex to Combat Medics or littering the Hanger Bay with medical pills, this lets good Doctors and Researchers excel in their work and build a reputation of being robust. But that 5% of the time when a Commander wants to start conflict for the simple fact that they can, they can easily come down hard and arrest all of Medbay (Which happened in my round) for doing what they do every round prior.

God help you when the Commander also shuts down any negotiations and simply says your not allowed to give any drugs to anyone (again, what happened in my round).

Also its hard to fault Doctors for distributing pills like Peri to medics when EVERY SINGLE GUIDE ON THE WIKI AND FORUM TELLS YOU TO DO JUST THAT!!!

[TheMusician321]

Honestly all you need to do is say "Hey CMO/CO, can you approve (Insert drug here.)" that's literally all you need to do.

[RedOktober12]

I'm noticing a bit of a lack of awareness as to what Marine Law is for, so allow me to elaborate a bit. From my point of view, it has three purposes:

1: To stop shitlers breaking the IC RP guidelines and punish people acting outside the norms and rules of the marine corps. This is highly necessary, as while we are an MRP server, our RP rules are strict.
2: To provide a framework of action in IC events, i.e. a mutiny.
3: TO MAKE THE ROUND INTERESTING & COMPLICATED

Marine law isn't supposed to make the game easy. It is not supposed to make your job easy. It's supposed to make the game complicated. That is exactly what CO Jack Knight did, and it was an interesting round as a result. While busting most of medbay for drug distribution may seem harsh, it lead to a novel and memorable round because marine law threw a spanner into an established practice. He didn't do it to make the medic's jobs harder, but because there is literally a law against doing what the doctors were doing and his character follows the law to the letter. By all means, be upset IC and complain to the CO and MPs. You're more than entitled to a reasonable reaction within the guidelines (Not as one marine was seen to do, suicide bombing the brig doors), because to repeat, the role of this law is to make the round more complicated and interesting with its interpretation. Medics have to find a way to work without peri, and get to feel a lasting resentment towards the chain of command. That's more than okay. That makes for interesting games.

But make no mistake, just because they often get away with it, the distribution of peri is illegal without authorization. No matter what the intent, no matter what the end goal. It's a restricted chemical and it's about time people started treating it as such.

Finally, and somewhat off topic, because I'm seeing a lot of complaints about medium RP guidelines: We as staff will enforce RP guidelines, issuing warnings and worse if we see them repeatedly ignored. I don't care what the MRP label says or what you read into it,that's the brief we have been given. Like it or not, this is a roleplaying game, and you're expected to act your role. Distributing peri at round start because you think you can get away with it is okay, so long as you're prepared to deal with the IC consequences. Refusing to treat bridge and brig staff because of it, as a doctor who explicitly is charged with doing that job, is not.

[Steelpoint]

I fail to see how it made the round more engaging.

Sure, it gave the MPs more to do. But all it did was get all of Medbay tossed in the brig, half the medics brigged and cost the Marines a chance of victory.

[Steelpoint]

Also can someone please tell me exactly where it says that Peri is a restricted/illegal substance. The most I can find is that its not listed in the list of Standard Issue Drugs in the Medic prep rooms.

We don't brig Marines for asking for Machetes or Special Holsters even though its not in the Marine Weapon Racks.

[NoahKirchner]

You guys still aren't listening, it doesn't matter "how important peri is for medics/doctors", if we didn't stock it in the common Medvends, it isn't a common drug that you NEED.

Also, we aren't saying that the law straight up bans the use of peri, we are saying you can't DISTRIBUTE the pills without permission.

You could always do it anyways, like Exotic said, but your run the risk of being arrested.

The way it stands now, if it's illegal IC, it will eventually become against the rules. You use the engineering metal later as a counterpart, but if you distribute that under the counter as an engineer, without permission, you don't get arrested, you get bwoinked. If you start distributing peri illegally, you will be banned. Maybe not now but once enough people start doing it.

[doodeeda]

The way it stands now, if it's illegal IC, it will eventually become against the rules. You use the engineering metal later as a counterpart, but if you distribute that under the counter as an engineer, without permission, you don't get arrested, you get bwoinked. If you start distributing peri illegally, you will be banned. Maybe not now but once enough people start doing it.

That's silly. Marine law exists to bring about RP, order, and events ICly. MPs exist so that admins don't get involved with IC problems. Admins replacing MPs is nonsensical. Bwoinks can happen when there's obviously something OOCly fishy going on. Whatever you do IC should have IC motivations, and if they're naughty ones, you'll get arrested by the MPs and not the admins. This system creates gameplay for the round. It's natural and makes the round evolve as actions have consequences. For example, marines may ransack the CL's office because the CL did something that scumbag CLs usually do. The CL can then go to the MPs and create further conflict that way. This can then become an eventful, memorable round. It can all happen without admin intervention.

[Swagile]

A round does not becoming interesting when MP's start mass arresting Doctors and Combat Medics because they were given / giving Peri.

You can't start shooting at abusive MP's who take Marine Law to the very letter, instead of to the spirit of the law, and so your stuck staying in jail. MP's have access to almost every lasting stun in the game unless you get lucky and roll Engineer (stunprods) or find a high cap and build one yourself. And even then, I doubt the admins would feel you were in the "right" for ghetto arresting a MP for trying to arrest you because "your breaking the law you should follow the law if you don't want to get arrested bla bla bla" bullshit that a lot of mods here seem to agree with.

Just like following shit orders that get you killed is dumb, getting arrested for breaking stupid laws is dumb as well and having people bend over backwards for the whims of MP's who decided to take it out on everyone else because "ITS THE LAWH LMAO!" makes it sound like you people encourage rule lawyers.

Even though one of the actual rules literally is there to prevent rule lawyering, yet you allow MP's to rule lawyer to ruin the round over the smallest shit possible (Peri being handed out to Combat Medics)?

l m a o

[Crab_Spider]

A round does not becoming interesting when MP's start mass arresting Doctors and Combat Medics because they were given / giving Peri.

You can't start shooting at abusive MP's who take Marine Law to the very letter, instead of to the spirit of the law, and so your stuck staying in jail. MP's have access to almost every lasting stun in the game unless you get lucky and roll Engineer (stunprods) or find a high cap and build one yourself. And even then, I doubt the admins would feel you were in the "right" for ghetto arresting a MP for trying to arrest you because "your breaking the law you should follow the law if you don't want to get arrested bla bla bla" bullshit that a lot of mods here seem to agree with.

Just like following shit orders that get you killed is dumb, getting arrested for breaking stupid laws is dumb as well and having people bend over backwards for the whims of MP's who decided to take it out on everyone else because "ITS THE LAWH LMAO!" makes it sound like you people encourage rule lawyers.

Even though one of the actual rules literally is there to prevent rule lawyering, yet you allow MP's to rule lawyer to ruin the round over the smallest shit possible (Peri being handed out to Combat Medics)?

l m a o

So your only point is that doctors shouldn't be arrested for distributing medicine without the permission from higher ups? If so, maybe I should take all the peri bottles, and lock them up in the brig for stock management, along with the oxycodene bottles.

[NoahKirchner]

That's silly. Marine law exists to bring about RP, order, and events ICly. MPs exist so that admins don't get involved with IC problems. Admins replacing MPs is nonsensical. Bwoinks can happen when there's obviously something OOCly fishy going on. Whatever you do IC should have IC motivations, and if they're naughty ones, you'll get arrested by the MPs and not the admins. This system creates gameplay for the round. It's natural and makes the round evolve as actions have consequences. For example, marines may ransack the CL's office because the CL did something that scumbag CLs usually do. The CL can then go to the MPs and create further conflict that way. This can then become an eventful, memorable round. It can all happen without admin intervention.

In theory, yes, that's how it works. The issue is that it's not how it works. All IC events that would normally be dealt with by sec are dealt with by MPs.
Cargo problems.
Fights.
Mutinies require a heavy backing first, essentially removing their usefulness.
Things like engineers taking metal from engineering.
CL breaking the law (Considered self antagging)

CM doesn't have antags. Law breaks are rule breaks, this will eventually be considered powergaming and handled OOC. Minor stuff will be handled by sec, very stupidly minor stuff that is just nitpicking, anything else you normally end up dealing with SSD players because they've already been banned for it.

[Swagile]

In theory, yes, that's how it works. The issue is that it's not how it works. All IC events that would normally be dealt with by sec are dealt with by MPs.
Cargo problems.
Fights.
Mutinies require a heavy backing first, essentially removing their usefulness.
Things like engineers taking metal from engineering.
CL breaking the law (Considered self antagging)

CM doesn't have antags. Law breaks are rule breaks, this will eventually be considered powergaming and handled OOC. Minor stuff will be handled by sec, very stupidly minor stuff that is just nitpicking, anything else you normally end up dealing with SSD players because they've already been banned for it.

THIS SO MUCH.

This is why MP is so boring, because all the major shit is already handled, so the only people who go MP are newbies, assholes who try to bend Marine Law backwards, and mods who go MP due to its low intensity.

Oh and for the Auto shotgun.