The whole MP situation.

[Philby0]

I believe one thing that would help against shitcurity would be to make some laws more precise, Apop has already done that efficiently with the insubordination law, but I think it could be useful to make the disrespect law more precise as to what exactly is disrespectful. As of now it states : "Using offensive names, disobeying orders, or being directly disrespectful".
It's one of the things that has to stay but that is used by shitcurity sometimes.

Also yeah share stories but avoid giving character names.

Regardless, I think this just goes back to show that we need a lawyer/JAG figure onboard.

Yeah, but the lawyer you find on more "vanilla" (Vanilla doesn't really exist in SS13 does it ?) stations is clearly flawed, security has no actual obligation to listen to them. JAG would work better, and maybe could also act as some kind of HOP, so that command can stay focused on the war.

But if we want to avoid adding an extra job, maybe we could use some kind of Jury system. For example, over a certain sentence time and if the accused doesn't admit to his crimes, he can ask for a Jury composed of two civilians/cargo/engineer crewmembers + the CL. They would have to be unaffiliated to the situation, and we'd pick those who have free time. They get to listen to the accused, the MPs, and the CMP would have to follow the sentence they recommend as long as it is lawful (respects the given times for each charge).

Also remember, in law enforcement and justice, there is no crime if there is little to no evidence. That might be different with the UCMJ though.

[Thucydides]

But we've added positions and locations recently, notably the smartgunner.

Just add a JAG, give him/her ultimate authority over the WO/MPs as the ability to act as a restraint on security, then whitelist the position. Less an SS13 lawyer than an HOP type character.

A jury is too unwieldy to set up ad hoc, whereas a JAG could similarly be neutral against the arresting MPs by balancing evidence and conduct.

[Zartam]

If an MP just overlooks every crime since "It doesnt harm the marine team, it might even help them" that might fall under neglect of duty which might result in a jobban

Less RP because of fear of jobban... something is terribly wrong with this.
MPs can't just play exactly how you want them to play. Every character is different.

[Winter]

That's fine, and I'm sorry I upset you. I enjoyed our RP last night. Thank you for your perspective.

I just think pepperspraying someone while they're bucklecuffed to a bed is really rude. Especially if they're cooperative and not trying to escape. I didn't say you were a bad MP, just that it was a crappy incident and really, you don't HAVE to preemptively pepperspray and flash people. Especially if they're in the brig, cooperative and there's THREE MPS RIGHT THERE WITH TAZERS. It's kind of crappy that that's 'not as bad as others' and that's the metric. I got told to 'stop resisting' and left alone.

Honestly, 'it pales in comparison to what other MPs do' is really not a great defense for 'I peppersprayed someone who was bucklecuffed to the bed and couldn't move'.

How am I supposed to know it's an aberration from the norm when MPs these days are tazing for blinking the wrong way? Or when I nearly get tazed for talking to a friend playing MP and go to fix a lightbulb said MPs called me over for? Or I get arrested and tazed for not being fast enough to do something?

And yeah, a neutral mediator would be nice.

Edit: I mean, we all have lousy incidents. I didn't ahelp it because it seemed petty, even if it rustled my metaphorical jimmies. I'm sure I am the villain in someone's story. Also, I cut out the name.

[solidfury7]

Overlooking it is not an option, as said by apop, they are not there to let it slide, the only "official" warning as a punishment worthy crime is minor weapons protocol violation.
If an MP just overlooks every crime since "It doesnt harm the marine team, it might even help them" that might fall under neglect of duty which might result in a jobban

Overlooking "every crime" and ignoring the occasional minor infraction are completely different, one is neglect of duty, one is being human.

Not to mention with the current way the rather awful marine law is set up, I can technically force the MPs to anyone on the ship, including themselves.

Give MPs some freedom to roleplay rather than being automated security borgs.

[Philby0]

I nearly get tazed for talking to a friend playing MP and go to fix a lightbulb said MPs called me over for?

Ooooooh it's you. Yeah I'm the one who told you there was a lightbulb to fix but there was none really. Your arrest had been ordered after proof of trespassing, and that was an easier way than to cuff you and drag you from aft to fore in cuffs. So really you were under arrest from the start.

As for the pepperspray thing, he did that because detainment procedures state you have to flash when removing handcuffs. I just think it should be done when no other MP is in brig.

[Dolth]

Just had a new issue with MP today,

Asked MP for a handcuff, told the Commander I forbid the use of AP in my squad until I say so (was SL), CMP went "Omg no you can't, you don't have authority, surrender the handcuffs! We will come to planetside in case of problem."

I've been yelling for them to come for 20 minutes, no one answered, neither the CMP, neither other MP.

Yeah, I keep believing MP are just people who wants to pisses off people, or just being assholes applying rules straight how its written just because it 'allow' them to cuff people rather than being useful and restraining that Kayleih Prevatt who kept running away, flashed and tried to cuff one of my guys.

Bullshit.

[Winter]

Ooooooh it's you. Yeah I'm the one who told you there was a lightbulb to fix but there was none really. Your arrest had been ordered after proof of trespassing, and that was an easier way than to cuff you and drag you from aft to fore in cuffs. So really you were under arrest from the start.

As for the pepperspray thing, he did that because detainment procedures state you have to flash when removing handcuffs. I just think it should be done when no other MP is in brig.

No, that one was because some MP was screaming at me about insults when I was talking to my MP pal about how they reproduce asexually.

[Philby0]

No, that one was because some MP was screaming at me about insults when I was talking to my MP pal about how they reproduce asexually.

Oh well, at least what I said about the pepperspray still holds.

Yeah, I keep believing MP are just people who wants to pisses off people

Yeah but if you act on it, those MPs will have what they want. MPs and marines should be in the same side.

Now I know this isn't seen very much but admins are very concerned with shitcurity.

[Challenger]

I was wearing a sick detective coat I found instead of M3 armor. No clue how (had to be some fuckin snitch) but somehow that MP found out and came down to arrest me.

Part of roleplaying as a Marine on a Medium RP server is that you get IC punished by the MPs for minor breaches of RP, for example where you ditch your USCM-issued armor for civilian clothing in the middle of a battle because it looks "sick".

Really don't know why the MP handled things like he did, didn't yell at me before jumping for his taser, didn't at least demand I wear armor instead of the coat? Nope just straight shoot first worry about the big picture later.

You're not obligated a warning or a chance to be told to stop. Roleplaying as a Marine means you know and fear the law, ignorance isn't an excuse.

The MP involved is planetside and there's combat all around him with marines wielding guns, it's entirely reasonable to go for a takedown first, especially when you're implied to be resisting arrest by staying at the front lines instead of submitting yourself to sentencing. If your fun is "ruined" because your character went out of their way to act like a criminal, and then MPs come and arrest you for being criminal, that's on YOU not on them.

(I will now list examples even though I said I was getting tired of typing. Guess I caught a second wind)
-snip of NJPs-

I absolutely think NJPs should take a great role in the game - just not from the MPs - MPs are the JUDICIAL last line of defence against lawbreaking, why would they punish someone NON JUDICIALLY?

In fact all of your NJP suggestions are something the MARINES should be doing to each other - let's say you're a marine:

- Someone's out of uniform? Call them retarded, give them a wedgie, then tell them to go put their uniform on.
- See someone starting a fight? Pull him away then step in between the fighters to block them.
- Someone has their gun out? Tell them to stow it before the MPs notice, or take it off their hands and put it on their suit storage yourself.
- See a medic leaving for the medbay? Tell them to hurry the fuck and get their ass back into briefing.

MPs are the LAST line of defence against lawbreaking, when you get arrested by MPs don't complain about the MPs arresting you - they're supposed to - complain about how none of the twenty people who saw you walk around with the wrong uniform decided to tell you to stop it.

After all, if it were about RP/IC reasons the MPs would most likely let shit like that slide and arrest them post-operation to resolve it, but clearly MPs here are looking to punish the OOC player playing that character because they have to put him behind jails during operation time.

If you "defer sentences" as an MP you're gonna get jobbanned. Also there's no point to Marine Law if no one's gonna enforce it. Which is why MPs are allowed planetside (and I think it should be EASIER for them to go down): you can't just break laws then go to the front lines knowing you're immune because MPs can't get to you.

Just add a JAG, give him/her ultimate authority over the WO/MPs as the ability to act as a restraint on security, then whitelist the position. Less an SS13 lawyer than an HOP type character.

Can everyone stop suggesting "who watches the watchmen" type roles, when it's clear that mods are the ones watch the watchmen. JUST AHELP IT. I ENCOURAGE everyone to ahelp shitcurity. If MPs are flagrantly violating procedure without a good reason just AHELP IT and get them MP banned. For example, if an MP arrests you and doesn't tell you why, or they don't set the timer before dragging you into the cell, or they tase you out of nowhere for a nonviolent crime, etc. should all be ahelped.

Less RP because of fear of jobban... something is terribly wrong with this.
MPs can't just play exactly how you want them to play. Every character is different.

Then make another character for being an MP. Or just do the entirely reasonable thing of making your character actually obey procedure for the job they've trained for like any sane and competent marine would.

Overlooking "every crime" and ignoring the occasional minor infraction are completely different, one is neglect of duty, one is being human.

Not to mention with the current way the rather awful marine law is set up, I can technically force the MPs to anyone on the ship, including themselves.

Give me an example of "ignoring the occasional minor infraction". If it's something like ignoring the marines who have their weapons in their hands because they're modding them with attachments in briefing, or two guys shove each other in the RO line for five seconds then stop or whatever equally inane shit then whatever. But I feel like people think that just because a crime is nonviolent (but still breaches RP) that MPs should just "let it slide", like the example of a doctor yesterday I had to arrest because he kept wearing a pilot's helmet despite my telling him to stop, and by continuing to repeat this "minor crime" every time he got released, he landed himself 60 minutes and kept asking for an execution to "prove a point about the MPs".

As for "technically force the MPs to arrest anyone on the ship", no, telling MPs to stop doing their jobs with an order like "stay in the corner at all times" or "don't talk over the MP channel" is an illegal order that they can't obey because they'd be neglecting their duties to enforce the law in doing so. That being said of course you can order all the marines to stay in prep forever for example but then that just becomes an ooc issue.

Just had a new issue with MP today,

Asked MP for a handcuff, told the Commander I forbid the use of AP in my squad until I say so (was SL), CMP went "Omg no you can't, you don't have authority, surrender the handcuffs! We will come to planetside in case of problem."

I've been yelling for them to come for 20 minutes, no one answered, neither the CMP, neither other MP.

Yeah, I keep believing MP are just people who wants to pisses off people, or just being assholes applying rules straight how its written just because it 'allow' them to cuff people rather than being useful and restraining that Kayleih Prevatt who kept running away, flashed and tried to cuff one of my guys.

Bullshit.

This was me.

- Server rules state: Unless you are part of the military police, you should not be enforcing Marine Law. You can absolutely order the marines around as an SL, I encourage it, but you can't flash and cuff them to arrest them or anything like that unless they're constantly being violent towards people.
- The moment you told us over the Command channel to arrest Kayleigh Prevatt I asked and received permission from the CO for a planetside drop, then ordered an MP down there. That MP seems to have done jack shit because they wouldn't communicate very often, and couldn't find Prevatt, but yeah. We tried.
- So if you want MPs to be more proactive about rectifying frontline legal issues then you should make it EASIER for them to deploy planetside, not harder like half the thread is arguing for.

[Casany]

I dunno. I typically just try not to toe the line. I mean, its one thing for an MP to arrest you for having your gun out to mod it but most of the time if you just talk it out the MP won't have a problem. I've gotten arrested maybe once these past two months, because I don't do anything really against the law. Its as simple as "Gear up, get your shit from RO or sit down in briefing, wait until drop." Maybe its because I don't go to the RO line much, I dunno, but everyone here seems to be having problems when I myself have never encountered any of these situations.

Just my input though. May be wrong here, I dunno, but it sounds to me like people like to toe the line of breaking a law and not breaking it, then getting mad when they're arrested for it.

[Snypehunter007]

Literally Casany has the right idea. If you don't want to be arrested, don't do something to piss off a superior or MP. As cheesy as it sounds "If you can't do the time, don't commit the crime."

If you commit the crime, don't bitch about it unless you truly believe it was erroneous on the MPs part.

[4thsurviver]

Normally as MP I offer time off if people come quietly, very few people take it. They'll try and walk away as I explain it or they will just straight up run away. Most times I try and just talk to someone about a problem they insult me and escalate the problem until I arrest them and they get pissed not understanding why I would arrest them for challenging my power when I gave them a chance to walk away.

Personally I don't think we need a lawyer since sentences are only for minutes to a hour at a time. Its the same reason MPs will try arrest marines ground side when they can. They only have a couple of hours to do so before the world restarts itself. I normally just say we'll get them when they come back, we know where they live. I think that the CMP needs to be hands on in sentencing and act like an internal affairs investigator to cut down on shitcurity. A good CMP should know everyone that enters the brig and why.

Treat MPs like you would cops in the real world. Show respect, comply with their orders, and have witnesses or evidence to back your claims up.

[Winter]

Honestly, sure, if I break the law, fine.

I'm just not a fan of 'THEY SAID SOMETHING I DON'T LIKE! HARMBATON! SIC THE MPS ON THEM!'

Or pepperspraying people just because.

[Philby0]

Treat MPs like you would cops in the real world. Show respect, comply with their orders, and have witnesses or evreidence to back your claims up.

Except not even, there can be political reasons to consider the authority of the state and the cops, but this a 2d Spessmen server you don't HAVE to play. Agree to RP as a marine, agree to follow marine law, simple as.

[Telegnats]

While i'm all for following the law, it's hard to take the "Then don't play" response seriously when I do in fact want to play, but I don't want to deal with someone who some times feels like they're actively out to just ruin someone's round because they can.

[Marcus Jackson]

MP's are higher on the chain of command because they are ship's crew and not combat personnel. They're less likely to be dead by the time they're needed to take charge of the operation.

They have the same rank because they're both enlisted men. As far as going up higher then a Staff Sargent as an enlisted man in the Colonial Marines, you're going to have a hard time, or you're going to need to specialize in something - like MP's. As far as charisma goes, that's dependent ENTIRELY on the people in the position at the time. Some SL's are as mute and bald as the baldest of MP's. MP's are combat trained at least to the same extent as SL's. I would argue because they are expected to deal with people using less-than-lethal measures, using lethal measures AND expected to know as well as apply marine law in both situations that MP's are actually better trained in combat.

As far as the argument of SL's having more responsibility; I would suggest it is actually the MP's who have more responsibility. Whereas a squad leader need only execute the orders of his OIC and attempt to preserve the lives of their men in doing so, MP's must do the same while also preserving the lives of the 3 other squads of marines, preserve the lives of the members of the ship's crew, and ensure that the law is enforced.

TL:DR MP's do pretty much everything SL's do and more.

MP's are trained for being Military Police, so while they are very good at policing, investigating, and enforcing law, to claim that the MP is the same rank as a SL based on merit of their combat skill alone is pretty laughable. While I think my local Swat teams are pretty good at what they do, I'm still not betting on them to pull a win against a squad of career soldiers who are armed and knows someone is coming for them.

As a guy who is reluctantly put into the SL position a rough 60-70% of the time, and usually ends up having to juggle more than just my own squad because their SL was being a moron and gets taken out of action... I'd be very surprised you saying the standard MP has to regularly worry about the same (or greater) level of logistics and danger that the SL does as being even close to true. And not only that, but the SL is in a war-zone where most (if not all) of any possible allies are at a 50/50 chance of either being dead, trying to not die, or being caught in the middle of a nest, which makes for a much more dangerous and delicate situation. If I see some stupid baldy resist an MP, I'm gonna help the MP enforce the law and any self respecting player should as well, but shit like banding together the moment something goes down (like 5 marines tackling a baldy who is spraying down everyone in briefing with bullets) and helping a specific person out when they need it doesn't happen nearly as much on the ground for an SL.

MP's are charged with preserving the lives of those presently on the ship or any area within their orders via the CMP or CO. If they are on the ground then sure you could say they need to help keep the 4 squads alive, but otherwise they are almost always on the ship protecting the doctors and other noncombat personnel, as they should be. And SL's generally only get large sweeping orders from the bridge to reach objectives or hold certain positions, and the actual plans and strategies used to survive and thrive are almost always between the SL's, their overwatch, and occasionally the CO if they have the time. The standard MP is to be only slightly autonomous in their duties, sure they can choose where to patrol, with whom, how long, and even on how to bring someone in, but they are ultimately under a more directed and focused job and set of superiors, while SLs are to be mostly (about 50%) autonomous until given more direct orders or are working closely with other SLs and overwatch (which they SHOULD be doing but this ain't the thread for that.

So no, saying that the actual jobs of MP and SL are equal in difficulty, responsibility, or being respected from their peers is not true in the slightest, and there is nothing wrong with that. They are the same rank for different and very good reasons, the MP's must memorize laws to their exact meanings while understanding the extremes of committing crimes and enforcing laws, and must also constantly think of ways to end conflicts nonviolently if they are not given direct commands otherwise, also restricting themselves to nonlethal means btw. The SL must memorize the weapons their men will be using, memorize the men using them, and also have as much communication as you can with 3 different channels while directly under fire, they must also know when to restrict themselves to a leading role if the situation makes it necessary and know how to get a bunch of drooling baldies to actually form cohesive units and fight half-decently.

I like SL's and MPs, and while yes there are definitely some shitty people that play those jobs that shouldn't be allowed come near them, they are both very important to victory and most people that play them have great respect for the power they wield and the people they have that power over. People that think MP's in general suck are the kind of people that will break the law anyway just because it's to gain attention, so while the recent blaze of shitcurity needs to be stopped, everybody needs to calm down on demands for restricting MP access and other such things, because that just won't help anybody.

[Winter]

Also, I did PM the person I named and apologized. That was unfair of me to name them.

[Troika]

I find it really strange that Apophis thinks having some jerkbag chase you down to the planet and try to tase you because you put on some random piece of clothes you found on a map, or removing you from the round for like an hour because you accidentially clicked them with a backpack in hand is good, fun, and desireable gameplay. Because it really isn't. I'm willing to bet that the majority of people tossed in the brig for something just log off. I know I do.

The whole incident with some MP actually going down to the planet and barging into a fight on the front lines to tase some guy, and then everyone who rightfully questioned something that ridiculous situation being threatened with bans is definitely completely beyond the pale.

[Dolth]

So if you want MPs to be more proactive about rectifying frontline legal issues then you should make it EASIER for them to deploy planetside, not harder like half the thread is arguing for.

Easy the tone cowboy. I did the most I could for you. Told command and MP about the charges twice. Requested MP three time. Told her location and my squad.

Actually I hope you aren't serious right now. Unless I go myself grab your hand and pull you softly to Prevatt. I couldn't do much more.

Edit: Just glared at your comment again. It's your fault if MP are unable to do their work and go planetside, not mine. How can you even ask me to make your work easier when you can't get one dude into Alamo lol?

[Philby0]

I find it really strange that Apophis thinks having some jerkbag chase you down to the planet and try to tase you because you put on some random piece of clothes you found on a map

I'm not quite sure you actually understand what "role play" means, what do you think happens if a soldier about to be deployed actually takes off his pants to put on some civvie clothes ? Don't you think whoever is in charge is gonna drag him off by the ear for him to get proper gear ?

removing you from the round for like an hour because you accidentially clicked them with a backpack in hand is good, fun, and desireable gameplay. Because it really isn't. I'm willing to bet that the majority of people tossed in the brig for something just log off. I know I do.

For like an hour ? When the minimum and maximum punishment for assault are 10 and 30 minutes ? Did you ahelp it ?

and then everyone who rightfully questioned something that ridiculous situation being threatened with bans is definitely completely beyond the pale.

That's just not possible. The marine law is a set of IC rules for the Marines. As long as it's not plain grieffing.

However for the MP, marine law is part of server rules. When you call someone a jerkbag for respecting marine law, consider that they might not even agree with that arrest OOC, but if they don't follow the law they risk a job ban.
You can't just do what you like. Be it wearing whatever you want or applying the law however you feel is best. This is a role play game with a military chain of command, you have to follow legal orders. If you as a player don't agree with certain things, your character can.

[FelixG]

To me that was an IC issue, it was dealt ICly AKA I got few men to disarm/push him, and I got cuffed, then got admi boinked. So no, from now I think "the whole MP situation" is about mixing IC and OOC. What can be done, and what can't be done. To me those rules are too unclear and leads to admins point of view, and not yours, which makes boink while you think it's alright.

IC issue is biggest grey area you can find on this server.
You think you got good IC reasons right till admin sends you PM and banns you. While at the same time you someone doing exact same thing and gets away with it.

[misto]

I'm not quite sure you actually understand what "role play" means, what do you think happens if a soldier about to be deployed actually takes off his pants to put on some civvie clothes ? Don't you think whoever is in charge is gonna drag him off by the ear for him to get proper gear ?

ha ha. we all know full well what "role play" means around here. it means pretending the place is heavy rp enforced when its convenient to justify nuisance behavior of ppl in positions of power/popularity or to hassle players for minor infractions for fun, and to go back to it being more medium or light-ish until they get bored again

[Philby0]

ha ha. we all know full well what "role play" means around here. it means pretending the place is heavy rp enforced when its convenient to justify nuisance behavior of ppl in positions of power/popularity or to hassle players for minor infractions for fun, and to go back to it being more medium or light-ish until they get bored again

Answer the question you actually quoted from me, seriously.

If you go around doing clearly illegal things for FUN (Wearing civvie clothes to be >le swag on the battlefield), expect players whose job it is to enforce the law to get you.


Who even reads the rules, both server or marine law, and thinks "Well this is shit I'll just ignore that and expect other players to ignore the things I do" ?

[Blade2000Br]

ha ha. we all know full well what "role play" means around here. it means pretending the place is heavy rp enforced when its convenient to justify nuisance behavior of ppl in positions of power/popularity or to hassle players for minor infractions for fun, and to go back to it being more medium or light-ish until they get bored again

Boi, you know that on real military, you would be put in jail for one week if you ditiched your uniform and then proceeded to run from the MPs, right?

I have friends in the army in my country, and just the action of saying "no" to an order from a officer, get's then brigged for 3 days AT LEAST.

You better evaluate what constitues Roleplay and whatnot, because you clearly have no idea.