The whole MP situation.

[Dolth]

>bashes police

>confused when charged with assault

>"but officer I apologised for bashing you in the face!"

>that's still assault

No.

[Kazuko_myu]

Make MP a whitelisted faction?

[Nickvr628]

That... might be the best option.

A few days ago the MPs brigged me for squishing a marine as the PO when I was returning to the ship. They gave me:

Manslaughter: 30 minutes
Neglect: 20 minutes
Contraband (a medic left hyperzine on the dropship): 10 minutes
Unbecoming Conduct (officers yaaa): x2 multiplier

TOTAL BRIG TIME: 120 minutes!

The CO and CMP ignored my calls for appeals, which I am entitled to, and a bunch of marines on the ground DIED because the only PO was in jail. Yeah I just ghosted the fuck out. Not dealing with that kind of shittyness. Something needs to be corrected with the MPs.

[MrJJJ]

Wait why the fuck is a hyperzine contraband? how were you neglecting your duty?

Honestly even with those removed, you would have still got a HOUR...jesus christ why does PO have to be a ensign reeeee

[Symbiosis]

That... might be the best option.

A few days ago the MPs brigged me for squishing a marine as the PO when I was returning to the ship. They gave me:

Manslaughter: 30 minutes
Neglect: 20 minutes
Contraband (a medic left hyperzine on the dropship): 10 minutes
Unbecoming Conduct (officers yaaa): x2 multiplier

TOTAL BRIG TIME: 120 minutes!

The CO and CMP ignored my calls for appeals, which I am entitled to, and a bunch of marines on the ground DIED because the only PO was in jail. Yeah I just ghosted the fuck out. Not dealing with that kind of shittyness. Something needs to be corrected with the MPs.

I would Ahelp for that. That would be like blaming the MP's for not securing the Hangar or arresting the Marine for traveling in the landing zone. They were trespassing and got squished by a PO who has ZERO chance to know when someone is on the landing zone. I'm not a rulemaker or anything like that, but that screams of shitcurity, even the Hyperzine is a stretch.

[Philby0]

MPs are supposed to enforce any law breach they see. They aren't there to "look the other way".

Legal systems are complicated, because they constantly need to be made more precise to account for as many different situations as possible. Marine Law is good because the rules in it are rather fair, it's been thought well and has clearly been going on the right path, however some parts in it are subject to interpretation, and thus create situations where the law is unclear, with no real way to know how to apply it.

For example : Insubordination Failing to follow a legitimate and lawful order from a superior.

This law seems good because it considers the possibility that a marine be given an order that would be improper. But in practice, the use of the words legitimate and lawful make it mindbreaking.

Lawful order, so any illegal orders can be contested by a marine, even a legitimate one (using illegal drugs on a wounded marine, even if it would save him) Marine Law is the guideline here.
Legitimate however, means valid, technically correct, morally understandable or defensible. And by definition a law isn't necessarily legitimate. We have no guideline for that and basically have to take the decision ourselves. Whoever will be tasked with deciding will have to use their moral sense rather than the law.

Say I'm called planetside to deal with insubordination. I have to deal with a SL and their engineer. The SL has ordered a turret be installed in a corridor, but the engineer won't do it because they fear possible survivors are likely to come this way. The order is lawful, but the SL considers it legitimate when the engineer doesn't. I reach a point where I have to use my own subjective interpretation of what is legitimate to decide if the law has been breached. Most insubordination cases are in this grey area.

My point is, sometimes it's logically impossible to know for sure what is and isn't a marine law breach.

A few days ago the MPs brigged me for squishing a marine as the PO when I was returning to the ship.

That's the kind of things that led me to post this topic... The whitelist is a good idea, but I'd say only for CMP, imagine the number of applications to process if it were for the whole MP. Plus a bad MP has no power when the CMP is good.

[Tidomann]

I saw a marine empty out a shotgun, cock it, then used the aim thing at me outside of briefing. Rather than freaking out I started talking to him. I moved towards him and gave him a hug. Then I heard *click click*. All the marines were freaking out. The marine then said "BLAM". I hit rest, "Oh god, I have been slain." I spurted as a started to roll on the ground.

Then I told him to holster the weapon and move onto briefing.

It was a nice moment.

[northcote4]

>bashes police

>confused when charged with assault

>"but officer I apologised for bashing you in the face!"

>that's still assault

Intent is the important part.

It's not criminal assault unless it was intentional. Otherwise it's just a happy accident.


That aside, I agree with what seems to be the general vibe: Mandatory paperwork for longer sentences would probably cut out a lot of shitty behaviour.

Say I'm called planetside to deal with insubordination. I have to deal with a SL and their engineer. The SL has ordered a turret be installed in a corridor, but the engineer won't do it because they fear possible survivors are likely to come this way. The order is lawful, but the SL considers it legitimate when the engineer doesn't. I reach a point where I have to use my own subjective interpretation of what is legitimate to decide if the law has been breached. Most insubordination cases are in this grey area.

My point is, sometimes it's logically impossible to know for sure what is and isn't a marine law breach.

That's why the MPs are players and not AI. You're there to use your better judgement, and mediate if possible. A lot of MP players just blindly follow orders, and sometimes that's just not the best way to do so.

For example, rather than immediately arresting the Engineer for disobeying orders, you could politely suggest that someone man the turret, disabling it's auto-fire and thus preventing it horrifically maiming any survivors. Or you could suggest manning a marine ahead to intercept them before they arrive. When the line is unclear, do your best to clarify it.

[apophis775]

"Lawful" meaning, does not violate Marine Law.
"Legitimate" meaning, it comes from someone legally above you in your chain of commander, or who outranks you.

An "illegitimate" order would be someone your same rank giving you an order, or receiving an order from someone who isn't part of the military.

[Philby0]

OOooh right. The presence of "from a superior" makes it a bit unclear.

[Tidomann]

Have MP set to low. MP 3 times in a row. Reeeee

[apophis775]

I'll look to reword it a little.

[apophis775]

Hopefully that's more clear now.

[Philby0]

Yep, that'll definitely avoid pointless discussions, it's good when things can be fixed simply.

[Recounted]

I vote we have judge dredd type of Mps

[Philby0]

Well the arresting officer is the one who decides on the sentence, we don't have a court and a judge. Technically we very much work like Judge Dredd's Judges.

[Zartam]

Ordinary chat between CMP and CO :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6cyDsuNx_U

[Thucydides]

So I'm going to use this thread to throw out an idea that I've been kicking around for a bit -- one or two slots for Marine JAG officers.

Now, I know SS13 lawyers were probably the most useless individuals in the game, but hear me out here:

The Almayer/Sulaco is probably closest to a real life LHD/LHA. Those sorts of ships can have JAGs embarked to not only deal with the legal needs of the crew, but to offer legal support to the commander as well. This can include Court Martials at sea (although those are typically done on CVs), as it's not exactly protocol for the MPs and CO to act as a unitary arresting force, judge, and jury.

Basically, what if the arresting MP had to argue his case for arrest and sentencing against a defending JAG officer, and the WO served as a neutral Judge rather than an arm of the law themselves. This would encourage the MPs to make use of more paperwork, transcripts, photos of misdeeds (for all those minor weapons violations) and maybe even evidence bags/fingerprints.

To accomplish all this, all you would need is tables and chairs in some sort of courtroom organization, a could stipulations added to Marine Law positioning the JAG with legal powers over the MP process and the WO as a *neutral* judge, and probably some space carved out near Brig for a JAG office with a fax machine to high command (in case the WO/Command begin disobeying the law).

This court setup might be unworkable for every small brigging, but for cases above ~10/15 minutes at issue it would offer an IC way to filter out shitcurity. We could even have the WO and CO designate that threshold in the beginning of the round.

And if there's a worry that the WO would continue to side with the MPs constantly, you could change the arrangement to make him more of a prosecutor and add in a specifically "neutral arbiter" role.

The JAG could also act as a legal advisor to the Commander when issues with WY or the law of armed combat come up, offering a foil to the CL (who constantly seem to write up contracts nobody cares about or understands).

Like I said, this has been on my mind for a while, but I've been reluctant to put it in suggestions.

[Blade2000Br]

So I'm going to use this thread to throw out an idea that I've been kicking around for a bit -- one or two slots for Marine JAG officers.

Now, I know SS13 lawyers were probably the most useless individuals in the game, but hear me out here:

The Almayer/Sulaco is probably closest to a real life LHD/LHA. Those sorts of ships can have JAGs embarked to not only deal with the legal needs of the crew, but to offer legal support to the commander as well. This can include Court Martials at sea (although those are typically done on CVs), as it's not exactly protocol for the MPs and CO to act as a unitary arresting force, judge, and jury.

Basically, what if the arresting MP had to argue his case for arrest and sentencing against a defending JAG officer, and the WO served as a neutral Judge rather than an arm of the law themselves. This would encourage the MPs to make use of more paperwork, transcripts, photos of misdeeds (for all those minor weapons violations) and maybe even evidence bags/fingerprints.

To accomplish all this, all you would need is tables and chairs in some sort of courtroom organization, a could stipulations added to Marine Law positioning the JAG with legal powers over the MP process and the WO as a *neutral* judge, and probably some space carved out near Brig for a JAG office with a fax machine to high command (in case the WO/Command begin disobeying the law).

This court setup might be unworkable for every small brigging, but for cases above ~10/15 minutes at issue it would offer an IC way to filter out shitcurity. We could even have the WO and CO designate that threshold in the beginning of the round.

And if there's a worry that the WO would continue to side with the MPs constantly, you could change the arrangement to make him more of a prosecutor and add in a specifically "neutral arbiter" role.

The JAG could also act as a legal advisor to the Commander when issues with WY or the law of armed combat come up, offering a foil to the CL (who constantly seem to write up contracts nobody cares about or understands).

Like I said, this has been on my mind for a while, but I've been reluctant to put it in suggestions.

this seems rather interisting, but apophis is a guy that likes simplicity, and this my friend, is not simple

[Kazuko_myu]

So I'm going to use this thread to throw out an idea that I've been kicking around for a bit -- one or two slots for Marine JAG officers.

Now, I know SS13 lawyers were probably the most useless individuals in the game, but hear me out here:

The Almayer/Sulaco is probably closest to a real life LHD/LHA. Those sorts of ships can have JAGs embarked to not only deal with the legal needs of the crew, but to offer legal support to the commander as well. This can include Court Martials at sea (although those are typically done on CVs), as it's not exactly protocol for the MPs and CO to act as a unitary arresting force, judge, and jury.

Basically, what if the arresting MP had to argue his case for arrest and sentencing against a defending JAG officer, and the WO served as a neutral Judge rather than an arm of the law themselves. This would encourage the MPs to make use of more paperwork, transcripts, photos of misdeeds (for all those minor weapons violations) and maybe even evidence bags/fingerprints.

To accomplish all this, all you would need is tables and chairs in some sort of courtroom organization, a could stipulations added to Marine Law positioning the JAG with legal powers over the MP process and the WO as a *neutral* judge, and probably some space carved out near Brig for a JAG office with a fax machine to high command (in case the WO/Command begin disobeying the law).

This court setup might be unworkable for every small brigging, but for cases above ~10/15 minutes at issue it would offer an IC way to filter out shitcurity. We could even have the WO and CO designate that threshold in the beginning of the round.

And if there's a worry that the WO would continue to side with the MPs constantly, you could change the arrangement to make him more of a prosecutor and add in a specifically "neutral arbiter" role.

The JAG could also act as a legal advisor to the Commander when issues with WY or the law of armed combat come up, offering a foil to the CL (who constantly seem to write up contracts nobody cares about or understands).

Like I said, this has been on my mind for a while, but I've been reluctant to put it in suggestions.

Bring back the Thunderdome court!

[Nickvr628]

Or you can just fuck off into the caves/wasteland/whatever whenever an MP wants to arrest you. Better to rambo to death and be USEFUL to your team rather than get arrested and ghost. I have stopped letting MPs take me alive hwne possible, the "brig experience" is so shitty I might as well die being useful.

[Skimmy2]

Or you can just fuck off into the caves/wasteland/whatever whenever an MP wants to arrest you. Better to rambo to death and be USEFUL to your team rather than get arrested and ghost. I have stopped letting MPs take me alive hwne possible, the "brig experience" is so shitty I might as well die being useful.

Or you could obey da law.

Wonder how much fun it would be if all 120ish players onboard of the Almayer had to treat Marine law as server rules.

Too be honest, the best way I see in enforcing Marine Law is simply taking notes and provide a report on all crimes caused by individuals, sentencing them all only after deployment is done. Though that requires the CO/WO's authority and wouldnt work on the most extreme cases, requiring immediate disciplinary action.

[Philby0]

Better to rambo to death and be USEFUL to your team rather than get arrested and ghost

Only a few very serious offences can get you in perma. If you're the kind that goes SSD when he's arrested for 10 minutes, how do you want us to believe you're not just a shitter ?

[Terminutter]

Only a few very serious offences can get you in perma. If you're the kind that goes SSD when he's arrested for 10 minutes, how do you want us to believe you're not just a shitter ?

Literally anything less than assault with a deadly weapon cannot get you into perma by itself, unless you get extra charges. And that's just the maximum sentences.
If you are the brig, you can always ask for an appeal to the CMP (or acting CO if no CMP), and then adminhelp if you don't get it, or you believe it is unreasonable.

What typically happens is someone breaks the law, is told they broke the law, and then act in such a way to add additional charges, when they could have turned themselves in for a minor crime, and been gone ten minutes later.

[Nickvr628]

But we all know that it is never "just 10 minutes". Anything you do, they will tack on resisting arrest because you asked why you are getting arrested. They add negligence, unbecoming conduct, and whatever else they want and boost it well above 30 minutes.

I have been playing CM alone for several months now, and the few times I have been arrested were because shitcurity or stupid shit. Let me list some:

Squished a marine under a dropship as a PO: 150 minutes

Had peradaxin in my system: 15 minutes

A marine left hyperzine on my dropship as a PO: 60 minutes

Asked Bill Carson a question during the briefing, apparently disrupted: 20 minutes

Said Bill Carson's orders were stupid over squad comms. Disrespect. 20 minutes.

All of these are stupid things that should not take you out of the majority of the round. If you want to brig me for 5 minutes at roundstart for having a weapon out, I will be pissed but that does not ruin my round. When you brig the squad medic for half an hour for getting extra chems from medbay, or the pilot officer for 150 minutes because [see earlier post], it surpasses proper MP procedure and becomes shitcurity.