Battlefield executions and you.

[shyshadow]

What I want to know is why battlefield executions exist in the first place.

To make Commanders feel like a an actual COMMANDER not an XO, there has to be a big difference between the two to justify a white listing in my opinion at least.

[Steelpoint]

Field Executions exsit to give Commanders that option in circumstances where it is needed.

In my entire tenure as a CO I've only executed someone once, and that was when we had no Military Police at all and the situation was a direct threat to my command.

Good COs should only be using Field Executions as a option of final resort, not something they chase someone halfway across the ship to do (which I've seen happen before).

[taketheshot56]

What I want to know is why battlefield executions exist in the first place.

Because sometimes shitlers need to be put to death IG, and the CMP wont do it. Personally I believe MPs should be able to force cryo someone as perma.

[Philby0]

What I want to know is why battlefield executions exist in the first place.

You mean as a game mechanic ? Well it's kind of a joker for commanders, to get out of tricky situation. I feel the way it's implemented is correct, and the rules should still be lax on the CO because it's a whitelisted role.
In reality though, most of the time, the CO does whatever the fuck he wants as long as he's in agreement with the first part of the rule. And whether it's RP or not are thrown under the rug.

Usually, the slightest illegal thing that bothers a CO player can be used as an excuse to shoot the marine dead. I mean come on people, at least try to have the standards of Che Guevara for executions, and they were FUCKING LOW. Insubordination or insults by themselves are hardly proper reasons.

Because sometimes shitlers need to be put to death IG, and the CMP wont do it. Personally I believe MPs should be able to force cryo someone as perma.

The CMP will do it if there was murder, mutiny, terrorist collaboration or sexual assault. For LOADS of other things, and actually all of them with repeat offenders, there's perma, which is just as safe as executing with procedure, faster to process, easier to deal with.

[taketheshot56]

You mean as a game mechanic ? Well it's kind of a joker for commanders, to get out of tricky situation. I feel the way it's implemented is correct, and the rules should still be lax on the CO because it's a whitelisted role.
In reality though, most of the time, the CO does whatever the fuck he wants as long as he's in agreement with the first part of the rule. And whether it's RP or not are thrown under the rug.

Usually, the slightest illegal thing that bothers a CO player can be used as an excuse to shoot the marine dead. I mean come on people, at least try to have the standards of Che Guevara for executions, and they were FUCKING LOW. Insubordination or insults by themselves are hardly proper reasons.



The CMP will do it if there was murder, mutiny, terrorist collaboration or sexual assault. For LOADS of other things, and actually all of them with repeat offenders, there's perma, which is just as safe as executing with procedure, faster to process, easier to deal with.

Insubordination is a perfectly reasonable offense to be executed for, if we look back to ww1 ANY commissioned officer in the British army had the power to execute men on the spot for cowardice and insubordination. In Vietnam even with the US there were records of officers and even sergeants drawing their arms on subordinates to get them to follow an order, The second someone doubts your order and you allow it to slide, is where cohesion as a unit has failed, when you sign on that dotted line you are REQUIRED by any means necessary to follow the orders of your superiors. Have there been shitty BE's? Sure, ofc there are some, executing a marine for not following a direct order is perfectly reasonable, and no, the CMP does not always sign off, ive been in plenty of situations where we have had murderers and terrorists locked up and the cmp will not authorize execution, Perma essentially locks a role because someone decided to be dumb and break a bunch of laws, forced cryo would allow a competent person to join in this job and allow MPs to focus their attention elsewhere, its hard guarding the brig and the permabrig at the same time.

[Philby0]

Insubordination is a perfectly reasonable offense to be executed for, if we look back to ww1 ANY commissioned officer in the British army had the power to execute men on the spot for cowardice and insubordination.

Oh right. WW1, the absolute horror in which soldiers were conscripted citizens and had very little chance of survival, and were lucky to get out crippled to life.
Just because the officers back then had the power to do so doesn't make it reasonable.

In Vietnam even with the US there were records of officers and even sergeants drawing their arms on subordinates to get them to follow an order

Well that's more reasonable, but threatening isn't the same as instant punishment. Also, we'd be talking about actual battlefield situations, most BEs here happen on the Almayer, and often on green alert.

The second someone doubts your order and you allow it to slide, is where cohesion as a unit has failed, when you sign on that dotted line you are REQUIRED by any means necessary to follow the orders of your superiors.

Or did the cohesion fail because the officer has no authority and can't find any other way to get respected than to say "do it or die" ?
This is equivalent to some school teachers, everyone's had a few of em, those who scream a lot and get angry for nothing, and claim they have to do this because children just don't want to learn. Nobody likes them, they do what they say because they're threatened with punishments. And other teachers prove those wrong by having natural authority, by earning respect and trust. Then an order is followed with little to no resistance.

I never thought I'd be on the side of a discussion where I'm the one supporting the troops, this is a new low for me.

ive been in plenty of situations where we have had murderers and terrorists locked up and the cmp will not authorize execution, Perma essentially locks a role because someone decided to be dumb and break a bunch of laws, forced cryo would allow a competent person to join in this job and allow MPs to focus their attention elsewhere

If they're locked up in perma, where they can't get out if procedures were followed, why would you kill them ?

I definitely agree there should be cryo pods in perma cells, but not forced, because perma'd prisoner can be a lot of fun and RP, if they are forced to cryo, they can't be broken out by someone else or anything. Also, taking up a slot isn't really an issue here, otherwise we could say "Roles are locked because someone decided to be dumb and die like an idiot".
Breaking the law isn't the same as breaking the rules. Cryoing to leave a spot is only for SSD marines and those who leave the round, but they're still alive and well, it's just an IC way to deal with the OOC problem of players disconnecting, to minimise its effect. Getting brigged is IC all around. If some SL got perma'd, it's the story of what happened that day.

Forced cryo would essentially have the exact same consequences as execution for every player, without having to deal with the RP consequences.

its hard guarding the brig and the permabrig at the same time.

It's the same as just warding the normal cells, since you only have to be somewhere in the brig, you don't even have to guard perma, you can just check on it once in a while.

[MrJJJ]

Insubordination is a perfectly reasonable offense to be executed for, if we look back to ww1 ANY commissioned officer in the British army had the power to execute men on the spot for cowardice and insubordination. In Vietnam even with the US there were records of officers and even sergeants drawing their arms on subordinates to get them to follow an order, The second someone doubts your order and you allow it to slide, is where cohesion as a unit has failed, when you sign on that dotted line you are REQUIRED by any means necessary to follow the orders of your superiors. Have there been shitty BE's? Sure, ofc there are some, executing a marine for not following a direct order is perfectly reasonable, and no, the CMP does not always sign off, ive been in plenty of situations where we have had murderers and terrorists locked up and the cmp will not authorize execution, Perma essentially locks a role because someone decided to be dumb and break a bunch of laws, forced cryo would allow a competent person to join in this job and allow MPs to focus their attention elsewhere, its hard guarding the brig and the permabrig at the same time.

Are you really comparing WW1 to USCM? like really? Conscripted Civilians, fighting in No Man's Land, literal hells and such, and they just want to get the hell out of there, to a space army of trained marines, and are prepared for this kind of crazy shit, and have exactly signed up for it?

Everything that i could have said about BE's have already been said, people use it too liberally on the smallest of things, MP's are there for a reason, while some of them can be shittlers or non-existant, you shouldn't be doing a extreme hardcore version of their job and executing people because somebody called you a dumbass, seriously save that for much bigger fish.

[Blade2000Br]

I am in favor of the BEs to an extent. More because of what I saw this community acts like. there are good players, but there are also those players that blow up Req doors and shoot other fellow Marines only for an attachment. Those type of people are the ones that should be BE since they don't care for RP nor his fellow brothers. they just want to win. If they salt for being shittlers, then be it.

I also agree with BEs where marines undermine the authority of the CO IN FRONT of his staff team. I mean, I saw literal marines insult the CO in front of his staff (Sos, XO and even POs) and they just look for a reaction of the CO. if he simply ignored, the staff team would just deem him a weak that can't even make a filthy PFC respect him. This only hurts the COs reputation, and he will be known for being a weakling and NO Marine will respect him, ever.

so Yeaaaah. BEs to insults are justified to an extent. Now, if you completely chase down a marine ONLY to BE, then you are doing something wrong.

[Lumdor]

What I want to know is why battlefield executions exist in the first place.

If you think about it, without them having the power of battlefield executions they would pretty much be the same as an XO.

[Heckenshutze]

Problem is, since we are -medium- rp, both the CO and the grunts behave, think and act deep within, like fucking civilians with guns and authority. The issues we see everytime a BE takes place wouldn't happen if we had more severe roleplay enforcement. Like it or not.

[Philby0]

Actually yeah, it's medium RP, but BEs don't get the same treatment on roleplay. If two marines have a fight and one ends up shooting the other, it might be considered a breach of the RP guidelines if there's improper escalation.

Commander blows the head off a non threatening marine for what's barely an insult, as long as it's according to law, nobody cares if the commander was being a reasonable person or not.

[Shyguychizzy]

I do wonder, what about being the Commander and an Admiral having both permission for Battlefield Executions. Obviously Admiral aint just regular player/whitelisted and since on topic on BEs, however there has been many instances where Admiral which performed the same instance or reasoning at times. Mere insult during a briefing field executed a marine in front of the entire platoon at other rounds. LT wasn't efficient to Admiral's liking or questioning was just silenced in that moment. Execution over an insult in which I myself have done in the past, obviously not every little insult but to a certain extent.

[Chaznoodles]

You're Americans, not savages.

[Westhybrid]

Problem is, since we are -medium- rp, both the CO and the grunts behave, think and act deep within, like fucking civilians with guns and authority. The issues we see everytime a BE takes place wouldn't happen if we had more severe roleplay enforcement. Like it or not.

You see, that's some shit I'm sick of.

The entirety of the time I staffed here, we enforced the goddamn roleplay guidelines. And since the summer, Staff tried to define CM as like pure Medium RP. Fine. But you still have to enforce the shit you wrote down. You can't blatantly disregard RP guidelines and even the rules of the server that apply just because, "Well, they did kill most of their own men out of pure fucking whimsy, but hey, it's Medium RP." I don't understand what this game of chicken is that you guys are playing. It's like you're afraid of getting called Heavy RP, so you bit down hard and are too scared to enforce the goddamn guidelines when some players are clearly in violation.

And yeah, it's subjective, sometimes shenanigans are fun. But sometimes, players are just pissing on those guidelines repeatedly. Some are CO's. Some are Predators. Some are regular players, and some are Staff.

And the addition of the ahelp system that counters actually dealing with a problem because its an IC issue is a fucking travesty to me. That move just trivializes any problems players may genuinely have with how a player is behaving. I don't understand that. Why not just hear them out, in all honesty, the people that are fucking around not adhering to roleplay guidelines are often the same people we were banning anyway. You're doing your jobs with one eye shut.

[Heckenshutze]

You see, that's some shit I'm sick of.

The entirety of the time I staffed here, we enforced the goddamn roleplay guidelines. And since the summer, Staff tried to define CM as like pure Medium RP. Fine. But you still have to enforce the shit you wrote down. You can't blatantly disregard RP guidelines and even the rules of the server that apply just because, "Well, they did kill most of their own men out of pure fucking whimsy, but hey, it's Medium RP." I don't understand what this game of chicken is that you guys are playing. It's like you're afraid of getting called Heavy RP, so you bit down hard and are too scared to enforce the goddamn guidelines when some players are clearly in violation.

And yeah, it's subjective, sometimes shenanigans are fun. But sometimes, players are just pissing on those guidelines repeatedly. Some are CO's. Some are Predators. Some are regular players, and some are Staff.

And the addition of the ahelp system that counters actually dealing with a problem because its an IC issue is a fucking travesty to me. That move just trivializes any problems players may genuinely have with how a player is behaving. I don't understand that. Why not just hear them out, in all honesty, the people that are fucking around not adhering to roleplay guidelines are often the same people we were banning anyway. You're doing your jobs with one eye shut.

I wouldn't mind to turn ourselves into heavy RP it makes me sick the amount of players that act like some thug with guns or a south american / african guerila/rebel unit instead of a highly trained, disciplined, ultimate badass marine.

[taketheshot56]

I never thought I'd be on the side of a discussion where I'm the one supporting the troops, this is a new low for me.

You know its very simple, staff implemented them for a reason, if you dont like it there are plenty of other servers for ss13.

[Westhybrid]

You know its very simple, staff implemented them for a reason, if you dont like it there are plenty of other servers for ss13.

No one's going anywhere else.

[Philby0]

You know its very simple, staff implemented them for a reason, if you dont like it there are plenty of other servers for ss13.

I don't know what that has to do with the thing you quoted but okay. You completely misunderstand me, as I've said I like it here, I don't want the BE to disappear at all. And yeah I do play a bunch of other servers, thank you, what's your point ?

Just because something is implemented doesn't mean it's perfect. It's usually the opposite, especially when it requires testing on a multiplayer game.

[Blade2000Br]

You see, that's some shit I'm sick of.

The entirety of the time I staffed here, we enforced the goddamn roleplay guidelines. And since the summer, Staff tried to define CM as like pure Medium RP. Fine. But you still have to enforce the shit you wrote down. You can't blatantly disregard RP guidelines and even the rules of the server that apply just because, "Well, they did kill most of their own men out of pure fucking whimsy, but hey, it's Medium RP." I don't understand what this game of chicken is that you guys are playing. It's like you're afraid of getting called Heavy RP, so you bit down hard and are too scared to enforce the goddamn guidelines when some players are clearly in violation.

And yeah, it's subjective, sometimes shenanigans are fun. But sometimes, players are just pissing on those guidelines repeatedly. Some are CO's. Some are Predators. Some are regular players, and some are Staff.

And the addition of the ahelp system that counters actually dealing with a problem because its an IC issue is a fucking travesty to me. That move just trivializes any problems players may genuinely have with how a player is behaving. I don't understand that. Why not just hear them out, in all honesty, the people that are fucking around not adhering to roleplay guidelines are often the same people we were banning anyway. You're doing your jobs with one eye shut.

if we had to enforce heavy RP, man, so many bans would be given out.

and I mean, even FF could handle bans, possibly.

[Jagdges]

Battlefield executions are done so shittily in this game it's not even funny. Summary execution by most definitions are ILLEGAL AS SHIT. As in if the officer or NCO who committed such an act were ever to be reported, they'd probably be sacked, especially in a branch of the US freaking military. Probably any branch of any freaking military. I study the Cold War pretty heavily and I'm about 97% sure the Soviets or any other Warsaw Pact nation (UPP surrogate here) wouldn't do what happens here either.

Summary executions aren't OK, period. The fact the commander's whitelist is being used as a "get out of jail free card" is kind of disconcerting, because if anything that whitelist implies a heightened standard of RP, far more than any other individual. In all honesty, the only time that someone should be killed by the commander is if his life is legitimately in danger, not because of insubordination or, Lord save me, an INSULT. Really? An insult? I've seen this more than a few times. I'd really like to see any commander who kills someone for insulting them have their whitelist removed.

Back to summary executions. The common excuse is mutiny, or even worse, a shallow slippery slope fallacious argument about how insubordination will lead to it. Here's a thing, if you have an officer being belligerent to the point that there is a threat of a mutiny? It's called brig for a reason. That's what brig is for. Not just a Marine who accidentally shot his gun in the req line, but for mutineers and others who break Marine law. That's what your MPs are partially for.

Someone mentioned that because the USCM is in the middle of an insurrection it makes these executions more acceptable. Yeah, it does, but you completely missed who it's appropriate towards. WE DON'T SHOOT OUR OWN. If anyone will get executed it's a CLF terrorist. If we follow GC III article 4, they fall under illegal combatants if they don't fulfill four prerequisites: commander is present, distinctive insignias, open arms, and behave lawfully. Can't imagine that's been overturned in 2180. (And even then, summary execution isn't the only punishment, it's just the worst one.)

tl;dr Summary executions are crap and are done by those who have no idea what sort of context would even be needed to be justified in doing so, and their effects are two-fold on the community because even if every game is different, the people aren't. 1: It sets a bad example and shows that you need to only fulfill minimal pre-requisites to end someone's game and 2: It sours the community on its commanders who have little value for their subordinates.

[Westhybrid]

if we had to enforce heavy RP, man, so many bans would be given out.

and I mean, even FF could handle bans, possibly.

I'm not saying we be Heavy Roleplay. I'm not a fan of that. Medium is definitely where we are (on paper), it's just the Staff's perception of that is fucking skewed.

Medium Roleplay, is roleplay standards and guidelines upheld, that gives a small amount of breathing room to shenanigans. Right now, with the level of staff enforcement, CM may as well be Low Roleplay. The only reason the roleplay is somewhat tolerable right now is because of the players are trying to stay in character, and the rounds are so linear that roleplaying to some extent is in the formula. But you see how briefings devolve, you see people gunning eachother down without cause, you see unrealistic battle executions. We're in some topsy turvy bullshit where the roleplay is primarily okay with marines doing stupid shit, and the minority are rational and realistic human beings.

There needs to be overwatch on the players' roleplay and behavior. I agree with Hecken, very few marines are acting like actual marines. It's in our goddamn guidelines, it ought to be enforced.

And that said, if its a particular move by the Staff that they want to ignore the roleplay guidelines they wrote out and built, fine. I think its a bad decision but they're the ones running the show. But if that's the case, then they should delete the guidelines page. Because you can't have it two ways. You can either have it and enforce it to a reasonable degree, or align themselves with what they're already not doing anyway and delete it.

[Heckenshutze]

Battlefield executions are done so shittily in this game it's not even funny. Summary execution by most definitions are ILLEGAL AS SHIT. As in if the officer or NCO who committed such an act were ever to be reported, they'd probably be sacked, especially in a branch of the US freaking military. Probably any branch of any freaking military. I study the Cold War pretty heavily and I'm about 97% sure the Soviets or any other Warsaw Pact nation (UPP surrogate here) wouldn't do what happens here either.

Summary executions aren't OK, period. The fact the commander's whitelist is being used as a "get out of jail free card" is kind of disconcerting, because if anything that whitelist implies a heightened standard of RP, far more than any other individual. In all honesty, the only time that someone should be killed by the commander is if his life is legitimately in danger, not because of insubordination or, Lord save me, an INSULT. Really? An insult? I've seen this more than a few times. I'd really like to see any commander who kills someone for insulting them have their whitelist removed.

Back to summary executions. The common excuse is mutiny, or even worse, a shallow slippery slope fallacious argument about how insubordination will lead to it. Here's a thing, if you have an officer being belligerent to the point that there is a threat of a mutiny? It's called brig for a reason. That's what brig is for. Not just a Marine who accidentally shot his gun in the req line, but for mutineers and others who break Marine law. That's what your MPs are partially for.

Someone mentioned that because the USCM is in the middle of an insurrection it makes these executions more acceptable. Yeah, it does, but you completely missed who it's appropriate towards. WE DON'T SHOOT OUR OWN. If anyone will get executed it's a CLF terrorist. If we follow GC III article 4, they fall under illegal combatants if they don't fulfill four prerequisites: commander is present, distinctive insignias, open arms, and behave lawfully. Can't imagine that's been overturned in 2180. (And even then, summary execution isn't the only punishment, it's just the worst one.)

tl;dr Summary executions are crap and are done by those who have no idea what sort of context would even be needed to be justified in doing so, and their effects are two-fold on the community because even if every game is different, the people aren't. 1: It sets a bad example and shows that you need to only fulfill minimal pre-requisites to end someone's game and 2: It sours the community on its commanders who have little value for their subordinates.

Everything you said is regarding a true military corp. The USCM in CM aren't. The playerbase won't become one without enforcing it.

What if we had to make more bans? That way we get rid of the scum and thugs that lurks the server. FF won't ever be a ban reason because there's no such thing as intended FF, That's called murder or grief.

Maybe if the USCM playerbase wasn't that shit at IC And RP we wouldn't need the CO to make executions, besides, one of the reasons they gave BE is to make mutinies possible.

[Philby0]

snip

What he said. To be fair, I'd still understand saying that executions could be more likely because it's science fiction and the future and all, but it really isn't behaviour you typically see in organised armies from decent countries. More in revolutionary militias.

Maybe if the USCM playerbase wasn't that shit at IC And RP we wouldn't need the CO to make executions.

As you said, many marines play more as guerilla units than as trained troopers. But a CO that executes in debatable situation is doing just the same, acting like a guerilla commander. The more it happens, the more marines will play like this.

I don't think it needs bans really, but just setting better standards for BE. That doesn't even require changing the rules, staff just has to enforce it slightly harder with warnings, reminding COs that they're the COMPLETE opposite of a communist revolutionary leader and should act accordingly..

[Jagdges]

I'm tracking that the playerbase is a bunch of shitlers. Got plenty of people who are just baldies. I was a baldie for years before I finally decided to register on here.

But that doesn't mean that the Commanders shouldn't be held to a higher standard. Summary executions are a very sore spot and the thing is that if said commanders want respect, they won't get it by executing their way to moral righteousness. Like I said, the same people play here. We know who these commanders are. It was brought up "Well if a commander is undermined in front of his staff and doesn't do anything about it, he looks weak." True. He does. But if he shoots that person on the spot he looks like a freaking tyrant. It's just the other end of the spectrum. I don't see how having the MPs do their jobs and deal with insubordinate marines doesn't apply here. It's their job when briefing is on but when the shit is hitting the fan they don't need to manage the brig? Come on. There's medium RP, whatever that means but that's just straight dereliction of duty.

More people don't need to be banned and I didn't say that. The only thing I said close to that is if I see a commander who kills someone, murders them, for someone as silly as an insult, I'd like to see his whitelist taken away.

[NoahKirchner]

I see two solutions to this that might make most people happy.

One is to append the rules, only allowing field executions on red alert or otherwise where it is required to prevent death or in another emergency situation.

Another more broad solution would be, perhaps, to add another form of staff who ensure RP conducive to immersion in the CL, CO and other major players but not enforcing (unless strictly necessary) rule breaks like griff or other out-of-RP rule breaks. This'd likely require a heckuva lot more work though.