Battlefield executions and you.

[Jagdges]

Limiting these executions to only red alert would be a very good start.

[Philby0]

I'm not sure about having another staff role just for that. If staff just dealt with BE related ahelps and situations with a bit more strictness, it'd be enough. As of now, there are so many executions it feels ICly like a marine dies by the CO's hand every two or three days. BEs have to be occasional or they lose their taste, kinda.

The alert idea is good, but if it were considered it'd be better to try out from blue first, make things progressive to see how it goes.

[Feweh]

People bait BE's a lot to complain about them.

Just yesterday I had a guy purposely refuse to leave an Office while a CO ordered them twice to remove themselves from the office and they refused. (They where an MT)

Was executed for refusing to follow Orders and the guy Ahelped the longest sob story of life. I pittied him, told him he remembers nothing up to the execution and healed him and let him go his way.

The guy spent the entire rest of the round purposely hinting that the CO executed him, fighting with the MPs and doing everything but his MT job.


My point with this story is that theres a general class of people who ALWAYS get executed and fucking deserve it. Just happens to be the same fucking people who are the first to complain about it.

BE's will remain, as they actually put a threat and fear into the common marine that you MUST follow a CO's orders or suffer real game consequences.
Follow orders and if you don't like those orders complain to the CMP and if it reaches rule breaking levels you can ahelp.

There are MANY steps you can take before you refuse to follow orders and get executed on the spot.

From an observational perspective, they actually cause MORE GOOD ICly than they do problems IC.
OOCly sure theres complaints, but no one cares that you're butthurt.

[Feweh]

Follow up since I read some more comments.

People need to realize that this is Roleplay. Before I continue let me make it clear that I know our roleplay system isn't perfect, but fucking no roleplay system is perfect.
Seriously, anyone who plays even intense roleplay games (DnD?) know that players will CONSTANTLY push the boundaries and it's up for an Admin or DM to make a decision because there are no guidelines or rules that cover it.



In Roleplay your character dies sometimes, or gets wounded or straight of vanishes. Shit fucking happens due to mechanics, roleplay and elements out of the players control.
Thats what people hate the most, dying or elements out of their control or that they disagree with.

Well tough shit buddy, those elements that are out of your control are PART OF THE FUN.

Maybe not your fun, but you being executed suddenly provides role-play to others.
You being killed by a UPP spy, suddenly creates fun for others.
Or... you killed by a Predator creates roleplay and a situation for others.


The server and game is not based around individuals.
People are selfish and cannot understand that everything has repercussions and no one cares if you fucking died and disagree with it.
The round continues and from your execution or death further fun spawns and is created from your death.


People need to understand this, this is a ROLEPLAYING game that is NOT based around your character or encounters, but rather EVERYONES. Part of Roleplay as a DM or Admin is sometimes letting that play out and leaving it as an IC issue for the benefit of the server and game.

Its as simple as that and we don't expect anyone to ever be happy that their character got killed by situation out of their control or one that they disagree with.
It's ALWAYS the same type of people complaining about this type of issue, the power-gamers, low-rpers and the general I WANT TO WIN.

If you're playing CM to Win and not to experience the events unfolding around you, you're going to have a very bad fucking time.
This is why we eliminated the win and loss message at round end, because CM is not about WINNING or LOSING. If for you CM is about that, then thats your prerogative and a goal you set FOR YOURSELF.

We are telling you this though;

You are fighting giant fucking aliens that will kill you and use your body to spawn their larva. We also make it quite clear that there are other elements in the game that may kill you at any moment, some of which you will agree with and some of which that you won't. But by playing on the server, you acknowledge that the CO might blow your brains out for talking shit, a Predator might rip your head off or WY Synth might mass release an infection from Research.

CM is not played based upon controlled elements, there are elements outside of the players control that may fuck their shit up and it's part of the game.

[AlanDemarest]

People bait BE's a lot to complain about them.

Just yesterday I had a guy purposely refuse to leave an Office while a CO ordered them twice to remove themselves from the office and they refused. (They where an MT)

Was executed for refusing to follow Orders and the guy Ahelped the longest sob story of life. I pittied him, told him he remembers nothing up to the execution and healed him and let him go his way.

I guess it was too hard to call the MPs..

[Philby0]

There are MANY steps you can take before you refuse to follow orders and get executed on the spot.

From an observational perspective, they actually cause MORE GOOD ICly than they do problems IC.
OOCly sure theres complaints, but no one cares that you're butthurt.

Yeah, it's pretty easy to not get BE'd with a bit of common sense and foresight, I believe that's why I never got BE'd.

However, how does it do more good ? Sometimes, even though I can see why the BE was justified, I still understand why the other player gets mad in some situations.
I really don't believe there's that much baiting, there's absolutely nothing to bait to really, it's a known fact whitelist removal won't happen on a BE unless it's basically griefing. Most of those cases I suspect are young players.

What bothers me the most is,

PFCs, MTs, all the lowest ranking roles and easiest jobs are supposed to not even voice disagreement, at the risk of being taken out of the round straight away, because of military RP.

COs, the highest and supposedly hardest role of all, that is supposed to have even higher standards on basically everything including RP, that requires to be whitelisted through approval of staff and the community.... Have no requirement to act like a proper USCM commander and can instead kill someone for petty reasons, which is supposed to be the opposite of well done RP.


I understand the "fun factor" you're talking about, the unexpected is always good and that's mostly why SS13 is so fit for RP communities, but UPP, CLF, preds... They're all basically hostile, or at least part of "other teams" from a gameplay point of view. Hell, most of the time even if I die on the first assault, I ghost until the round is over, just because I want to know how the story turned out.

As you said, it's not about winning or losing, but it's about playing. And those who complain when they get BEd arent complaining because they lost, they're complaining because they can't play, for a reason that hardly makes sense, it breaks the immersion, unlike dying in a fight against a pred or being assassinated by a UPP spy, even if the player died instantly without seeing anything coming, they understand.

People are selfish and cannot understand that everything has repercussions and no one cares if you fucking died and disagree with it.
The round continues and from your execution or death further fun spawns and is created from your death.

If you truly believe this, mutinies should be allowed without ahelp, because a CO would have to accept the repercussions of their actions the exact same way.

[Jagdges]

Could've solved that problem by calling the MPs and then, well, brigging him.

I can't speak for others but I'm not talking on an individual level on the macro scale, I'm saying that these executions only lead to an increasingly powerful sentiment that the commanders will become manchildren as soon as their authority is so much as even thought about. This happens in reality, we didn't always like our company commander, or our lieutenants. We didn't always like a certain Sergeant, or really anyone necessarily. That's not the issue.

What's the issue is that summary executions are just expected. The Commander gets a "Fuck your fun" excuse if you so much as even look at him wrong. I remember the other night we had a commander who executed my Lieutenant, very good Lieutenant by the way who worked with me as acting SL, but was executed for simply standing up for our squad when we were ordered to fuck off and die in the wilderness somewhere. Where was the reason there? Was that just another idiot? I sure don't think so. Neither did anyone else in the squad.

[Heckenshutze]

If you truly believe this, mutinies should be allowed without ahelp, because a CO would have to accept the repercussions of their actions the exact same way.

We made it that way to stop our players to mutiny over stupid shit like getting no attachment and the fact most of the times it was only 1-2 marines who mutiny, fucking the whole round for the rest.

Everything that exist in the game, good, bad, fun or not exists because it's players. And we have some serious shit players. You do the math


P.S people is selfish by nature.

[Philby0]

I know, I never said mutiny rules should be that way, just that the same logic has to be applied for the CO as a player, especially when CO is the one who's supposed to have more responsibilities.

Furthermore the general behaviour and seriousness of the CO, who's going to talk to the whole crew for most of the round, heavily impacts the behaviour of other players, even the low rp and the young ones.

You can't fix the problem of marines playing selfishly by letting the CO be selfish.

[Feweh]

I know, I never said mutiny rules should be that way, just that the same logic has to be applied for the CO as a player,

Not at all.

The CO blowing out the brains of his XOs has little to almost no impact on the entire round.

A mutiny at round start can be completely round ending for everyone.

[HappytoHelp]

Insubordination is a perfectly reasonable offense to be executed for, if we look back to ww1 ANY commissioned officer in the British army had the power to execute men on the spot for cowardice and insubordination. In Vietnam even with the US there were records of officers and even sergeants drawing their arms on subordinates to get them to follow an order.

This isn't World War 1. Or the Vietnam war.

[Incomptinence]

I wish alien queens had a ranged psychic version of battlefield execution.

The complete disregard of your orders is downright absurd sometimes.

[solidfury7]

Feweh really summed it up for me really.

Perhaps I'll expand my own thoughts sometime but the conversation seems to be going in circles at the moment.



Edit

This isn't World War 1. Or the Vietnam war.

Nor is it 2017 in the CM universe, therefore we can't use your views on the military and how the military is currently in a discussion, nor any military action throughout history

That's basicly what you're saying.

[HappytoHelp]

snip

Yes, that's exactly my point, I'm going off what I've seen in the films, comics, and books, and not what the modern Military does. And I can safely say from that, that 90% of the people currently whitelisted to play CO would never even be let near a Marine, let alone become, and be one long enough to get promoted with how they behave.

[Philby0]

The CO blowing out the brains of his XOs has little to almost no impact on the entire round.

A mutiny at round start can be completely round ending for everyone.

Yeah that's true, it doesn't have the same impact. But I still believe it does have a big impact on the round, and not just the round in which it happens, but every other round that CO will play after that,
basically this :

I can't speak for others but I'm not talking on an individual level on the macro scale, I'm saying that these executions only lead to an increasingly powerful sentiment that the commanders will become manchildren as soon as their authority is so much as even thought about. This happens in reality, we didn't always like our company commander, or our lieutenants. We didn't always like a certain Sergeant, or really anyone necessarily. That's not the issue.

What's the issue is that summary executions are just expected. The Commander gets a "Fuck your fun" excuse if you so much as even look at him wrong.

I very much agree that when there's an IC death (not griefing or anything that could justify an aheal) we don't give a shit if someone isn't happy about their death. Being executed is not different than getting killed in a fight that escalates in the RO line or something, sometimes you die for shit reasons and you gotta deal with it and it's part of the game.
It's about the CO, and in particular the roleplay.

I've seen COs kill marines for being disruptive or generally insubordinate, ten minutes into the round, while MPs are trying to deal with it. MPs come and order the marine to stop, and when he doesn't they start arrest procedure. They tell him to get on the ground, get prepared to tase if he doesn't and then CO just walks by, blows the marine's brains out.

The roleplay guidelines clearly state no one on the ship can be crazy, excluding the possibility of being traumatised during the round after fighting.
No person of sound mind would coldly execute someone who doesn't pose a serious threat to them. When they can be dealt with by the MPs, BEs are sometimes used for mere convenience. if the CO as a character shows no empathy nor remorse when taking a life for petty reasons, he is a psychopath.

For the whole crew, it feels weird to have a CO who acts like a capricious psycho. Once in a while would be all right but it happens quite often.

You guys managed to control xenomemeing efficiently, the same could be done with marines but there can't be double standards on RP in favour of the highest role.


And although humans can be selfish, they naturally aren't, they only get selfish in situations that encourage it.

[HKO20006]

While BE has it's own Rule 0 (the rule literally above all else) stating "it's much better not to" BE, BE are currently being handed out with little repercussion like attachments to marines. Hell, even RO would deny PFC BC vs COs going "Unga dunga I metaba anyone for anything I want!"
COs are supposed to be held to highest standard plus BE being the last resort, if the situation allows briging, go briging (and normal execution) not BE.

The alert idea +1
Warn/revoke CO whitelist if BE is avoidable (i.e. brig) +1

[NoahKirchner]

Follow up since I read some more comments.

People need to realize that this is Roleplay. Before I continue let me make it clear that I know our roleplay system isn't perfect, but fucking no roleplay system is perfect.
Seriously, anyone who plays even intense roleplay games (DnD?) know that players will CONSTANTLY push the boundaries and it's up for an Admin or DM to make a decision because there are no guidelines or rules that cover it.



In Roleplay your character dies sometimes, or gets wounded or straight of vanishes. Shit fucking happens due to mechanics, roleplay and elements out of the players control.
Thats what people hate the most, dying or elements out of their control or that they disagree with.

Well tough shit buddy, those elements that are out of your control are PART OF THE FUN.

Maybe not your fun, but you being executed suddenly provides role-play to others.
You being killed by a UPP spy, suddenly creates fun for others.
Or... you killed by a Predator creates roleplay and a situation for others.


CM is not played based upon controlled elements, there are elements outside of the players control that may fuck their shit up and it's part of the game.

I agree with this, and deaths can often time improve the RP experience for everyone. That being said, BEs are often used simply in place of traditional executions and when having a BE provides no better context to the situation for those uniniated and keeps as few people as part of the execution as possible. Sometimes it makes an interesting story, yes, particularly when the CO is pushed into a tough spot and a death is the only manner of survival. To use a BE in the place of a traditional execution keeps even more people out of the story, especially when dealing with a traditional crime. Traditional executions get more people involved, particularly the MPs and the CMPs, and allows the prisoner to have some final words and last rights while still maintaining the fact that they do, indeed, die. Furthermore their final words or actions may even spark more ingame drama and intrigue whereas wordlessly blowing a guy's brains out leaves the story at that: a dead guy.

Don't get me wrong, battlefield executions are a tool worth keeping in a CO's arsenal and a lot of the time do serve a valid purpose, one that is conducive to roleplay and which helps to drive the story even at the expense of one or two character's rounds, but traditional executions (in the majority of situations) are the better option, unfortunately the uptick in battlefield executions fails to represent that.

[lgmmrm]

Never been a commander (considered apping for the whitelist but decided to spend a few more months on the server to try and build rapport), but honestly I feel the only time a BE should be used is when there is a serious crime committed that needs a message sent. Execute a mutineer or something sure, but do it by procedure. I've always felt a BE should be reserved for someone who does something that directly affects the operation or moral on the ground in a fight. Like if I were CO and heard of a marine cutting tail and run while his squad was in a full firefight, leading to more deaths than necessary, that'd be a reason to BE someone. Stuff like desertion, abandoning your post if you're planetside, stuff like that.

[lgmmrm]

Never been a commander (considered apping for the whitelist but decided to spend a few more months on the server to try and build rapport), but honestly I feel the only time a BE should be used is when there is a serious crime committed that needs a message sent. Execute a mutineer or something sure, but do it by procedure. I've always felt a BE should be reserved for someone who does something that directly affects the operation or moral on the ground in a fight. Like if I were CO and heard of a marine cutting tail and run while his squad was in a full firefight, leading to more deaths than necessary, that'd be a reason to BE someone. Stuff like desertion, abandoning your post if you're planetside, stuff like that.

Like, where I'd imagine using a BE is if a marine was posted to cover an entrance to the FOB and then just ran off to tcomms or something leading to the FOB falling. No cool one liners would follow I'd just announce "this is what happens when you leave your damn post."

[HKO20006]

Never been a commander (considered apping for the whitelist but decided to spend a few more months on the server to try and build rapport), but honestly I feel the only time a BE should be used is when there is a serious crime committed that needs a message sent. Execute a mutineer or something sure, but do it by procedure. I've always felt a BE should be reserved for someone who does something that directly affects the operation or moral on the ground in a fight. Like if I were CO and heard of a marine cutting tail and run while his squad was in a full firefight, leading to more deaths than necessary, that'd be a reason to BE someone. Stuff like desertion, abandoning your post if you're planetside, stuff like that.

BATTLEFIELD executions, not CIC execution or Briefing room execution.

[Jagdges]

Beatings will continue until morale improves.

[lgmmrm]

Beatings will continue until morale improves.

I'm talking like a marine blatantly betraying the trust of his squaddies by deserting a post or an SL ignoring an order to retreat and getting most of his squad torn apart. That would be a well deserved BE

[Jagdges]

Not you necessarily lol, that seems reasonable, but those who argue for them to stay as is. Gives far too much discretion to a whitelisted position.

[Tidomann]

If people expect battlefield executions to be more reasonable, how about expecting marine roleplay to be more reasonable as well? /S

[lgmmrm]

If people expect battlefield executions to be more reasonable, how about expecting marine roleplay to be more reasonable as well? /S

Yes. Please.