small rant about the community.

[CrimsonAerospace]

Moreover, calling people out for making good use of the tools they're given and playing the game as it exists, rather than encumbering themselves with fictional, self-invented/imposed rules and limits is pretty much the height of stupidity.

Google, define "Roleplaying Game"

A role-playing game (sometimes spelled roleplaying game and abbreviated to RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development
Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.

Welcome to SS13, including CM. A medium roleplaying game with combat mechanics to enhance the experience. Powergamers are shit, because if they didn't exist, we wouldn't need people to find the flaws of the games systems. And I'm not saying playing to win is bad, it is fun to win, but "encumbering themselves with fictional, self-invented/imposed rules and limits" is literally SS13/CM. People just seem to have forgotten this. This thread has gotten excessively dumb.

[Surrealistik]

Google, define "Roleplaying Game"

A role-playing game (sometimes spelled roleplaying game and abbreviated to RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development
Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.

Welcome to SS13, including CM. A medium roleplaying game with combat mechanics to enhance the experience. Powergamers are shit, because if they didn't exist, we wouldn't need people to find the flaws of the games systems. And I'm not saying playing to win is bad, it is fun to win, but "encumbering themselves with fictional, self-invented/imposed rules and limits" is literally SS13/CM. People just seem to have forgotten this. This thread has gotten excessively dumb.

See, you might have an iota of an argument if these arbitrary rules I'm referring to were truly predicated on RP considerations.

For example we weren't supposed to pair the scout cloak with the only thing it's actually useful for: masking your approach with a deadly close range weapon or explosive such as a shotgun, SADAR, etc.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, not things that are within the realm of common sense not to do because they make no IC sense whatsoever, or worse still, are blatantly metagaming.


And yes, powergamers, as in people who optimize within reasonable IC conventions, absolutely do a service to the game because a meta inevitably develops and it inevitably ends up bending towards tactics and loadouts said powergamers would be using anyways which become dominant, and thus gameplay tends towards stagnation; they let you preview the future of the meta, and help devs identify flaws and introduce interesting choices mechanically before the meta becomes stagnant on a large scale. Powergaming was instrumental in accelerating the creation of truly interesting choices and balance considerations, and the removal of things that had no business being in the game (like mech armies, infinite laser turrets, etc). Whether you like it or not, there is a strong mechanical side to this game as well that everyone indulges in and aims to optimize at some level, and thus combat mechanics with interesting choices and options are ultimately better and more fun than an alternative whose options are largely illusory; to ignore or fail to be aware of that fact is to be truly idiotic, willfully ignorant, or both.

[Skimmy2]

Im pretty sure powergamers are frowned upon in all RP circles, they are, by definition, maximizing their efforts based on mechanical rules rather then roleplay. The GMs Admins will like to have a word with you.

[CrimsonAerospace]

Im pretty sure powergamers are frowned upon in all RP circles, they are, by definition, maximizing their efforts based on mechanical rules rather then roleplay. The GMs Admins will like to have a word with you.

Powergamers are, have been, and always will be, a cancer on any game like SS13. They exploit mechanics either ruled against or not known of by the development teams to pad their wins or kills. There is no community benefit of power gaming, and the negligible effect it's had on mechanics isn't even worth announcing. Someone powergaming with the cloak and the RPG got the cloak nerfed. People spamming maxcaps and APLU's got Science nerfed to hell and back. Marines shaking other marines out of hugger KO's when it was bug, barricade stacking, filling your backpack with pulse rifles waaay back when that was a thing....power gaming is not benificial, and powergamers are arrogant snobs who think they're the shit because they can exploit mechanical systems while skimping out on any form of a narrative or a story. That's why powergaming against the rules on any and all RP-based servers, including CM, and people have been banned for it.

[Blade2000Br]

Powergamers are, have been, and always will be, a cancer on any game like SS13. They exploit mechanics either ruled against or not known of by the development teams to pad their wins or kills. There is no community benefit of power gaming, and the negligible effect it's had on mechanics isn't even worth announcing. Someone powergaming with the cloak and the RPG got the cloak nerfed. People spamming maxcaps and APLU's got Science nerfed to hell and back. Marines shaking other marines out of hugger KO's when it was bug, barricade stacking, filling your backpack with pulse rifles waaay back when that was a thing....power gaming is not benificial, and powergamers are arrogant snobs who think they're the shit because they can exploit mechanical systems while skimping out on any form of a narrative or a story. That's why powergaming against the rules on any and all RP-based servers, including CM, and people have been banned for it.

But it appears that some people think its beneficial...

Now, for everyone out there, Since apparently people got confused, No I am not saying you can't have fun by winning.
What I am saying is pririotizing said win above anything else, not giving a damn about round progression/sotry telling and so forth.

A example of good team player is Kesserline, guy knows dose the use of mechanics to benefit and actually act like a normal person.

Again, you can have fun by winning and killing xenos, but do NOT make that your sole purpose on playing the game. This only hurt the marines and get shit undone.

[Surrealistik]

Powergamers are, have been, and always will be, a cancer on any game like SS13. They exploit mechanics either ruled against or not known of by the development teams to pad their wins or kills. There is no community benefit of power gaming, and the negligible effect it's had on mechanics isn't even worth announcing. Someone powergaming with the cloak and the RPG got the cloak nerfed. People spamming maxcaps and APLU's got Science nerfed to hell and back. Marines shaking other marines out of hugger KO's when it was bug, barricade stacking, filling your backpack with pulse rifles waaay back when that was a thing....power gaming is not benificial, and powergamers are arrogant snobs who think they're the shit because they can exploit mechanical systems while skimping out on any form of a narrative or a story. That's why powergaming against the rules on any and all RP-based servers, including CM, and people have been banned for it.

Except you're typecasting all powergamers as people exclusively concerned with gaining a mechanical advantage at the summary disregard of all else when that's just not the case.

Maybe your definition of powergamer differs from mine, or you're focused exclusively on the extreme end of the spectrum in order to try and make your point; in an RP centric context like CM, I'm more referring to optimization within the constraints of reasonable RP: it's not the guy who has a backpack full of rifles, or who mercilessly abuses blatant bugs, or does things that defy all logic and reason; it's the guy who makes mechanically optimal decisions that ICly make sense and forecast the inevitable direction of the broader meta, and the existence of interesting or illusory choices in a way that's not destructive to everyone's enjoyment: good loadouts, support picks, synergistic attachments/gear combos, barricade placement, etc. The hardcore powergamers who have literally no regard whatsoever for IC considerations or metagaming given that these are core elements of the gameplay are indeed shitlers, agreed, because though they do draw attention to things that should be fixed/removed, they do it in a way that actively and seriously disrupts immersion and general verisimilitude in pursuit of a mechanical advantage (rather than PMing devs/posting it on GitLab, etc).

[Kesserline]

Yaaaay, someone used me as a good example!

You are both right, by the way.

Winning is cool, but not at the cost of discarding RP and the respect of other players

[Blade2000Br]

Except you're typecasting all powergamers as people exclusively concerned with gaining a mechanical advantage at the summary disregard of all else when that's just not the case.

Maybe your definition of powergamer differs from mine, or you're focused exclusively on the extreme end of the spectrum in order to try and make your point; in an RP centric context like CM, I'm more referring to optimization within the constraints of reasonable RP: it's not the guy who has a backpack full of rifles, or who mercilessly abuses blatant bugs, or does things that defy all logic and reason; it's the guy who makes mechanically optimal decisions that ICly make sense and forecast the inevitable direction of the broader meta, and the existence of interesting or illusory choices in a way that's not destructive to everyone's enjoyment: good loadouts, support picks, synergistic attachments/gear combos, barricade placement, etc. The hardcore powergamers who have literally no regard whatsoever for IC considerations or metagaming given that these are core elements of the gameplay are indeed shitlers, agreed, because though they do draw attention to things that should be fixed/removed, they do it in a way that actively and seriously disrupts immersion and general verisimilitude in pursuit of a mechanical advantage (rather than PMing devs/posting it on GitLab, etc).

Thing is, Sur, those "extremists" causes some serious shit to everyone involved and disrupts the game. And I am glad you agree with that fact.

However, theres those "light powergamers" as per say, that, does some borderline powergaming shit that the devs seem necessity to remove. Things that wasn't supposed to be removed in first place.

Take for instance the mag nerf, it was NEVER intended to be nerfed to 32 mags, hence the reversion, but they did in the time because people were getting so much ammo they literally acted like one man army.

I get some guys want to have optimized loadouts to max their efficiency, hell we got guides on the forum itself that is even on the wiki, but some disregard completely the story telling of a RP-Centric game like CM. Everything for a few kills.

I have nothing agaisn't you nor anyone that likes to do that type of stuff, if they want be optimal go for it, but scrutinize other players for that perfect loadout is what I am agaisn't of.

[Philby0]

That said, critiquing others for playing to win is retarded, and playing to win is not at all mutually exclusive with playing to have fun, or having fun regardless of the outcome as I often do barring one of those shitshows where I spend 30+ min in medbay because PFC #4593054 FFed me in the back with burst fire, or early round removal due to someone's monstrous incompetence/cowardice.

As to powergaming, powergamers actually do this game a service by pointing out weaknesses/failures in the game's balance/design. Without powergamers, CM wouldn't be nearly as good a game and would not have progressed nearly as quickly. Yes, it often results in nerfs/changes, but that's a good, not a bad thing; that is the game evolving into a better, more refined state.

Moreover, calling people out for making good use of the tools they're given and playing the game as it exists, rather than encumbering themselves with fictional, self-invented/imposed rules and limits is pretty much the height of stupidity.

TLDR; "Powergaming is good, the rules are dumb and if you don't agree you're a stupid scrub"

Also this

deadly close range weapon or explosive such as a shotgun, SADAR, etc.

Is why it's hard to take you seriously when you talk about reasonable powergaming

My sides are in orbit.

[Skimmy2]

I mean, if we benefit in some way from powergamers stressing the limits of the system, then the issue is that no system is powergame proof, from D&D to Call of Duty and 2d spessmens in between.
Gonna have to draw the line sooner or later.

[Surrealistik]

TLDR; "Powergaming is good, the rules are dumb and if you don't agree you're a stupid scrub"

More like, powergaming has good aspects to it, and there's generally a level of it on CM that is more pro than con; if you disagree with that, then yes, you don't know what you're talking about.

Is why it's hard to take you seriously when you talk about reasonable powergaming

My sides are in orbit.

So um, what possible use do you see for a what, 5 second cloak other than closing distance to shotgun a xeno/use other spike damage weapon, or ambush it with an explosive? Aside from running like a bitch, that's pretty much it.

I don't see how that's not reasonable IC powergaming.

Meanwhile we now have Scout specialists that literally can't use shotguns which is more immersion breaking than them using the things while cloaked (which was not at all); the 'cure' in terms of immersion/IC violation is orders of magnitude worse than the disease ever was.

[forwardslashN]

So you're....bitching about Roleplaying in a Roleplaying game, and the horribly inconsistent lore we're loosely based on, but are mostly keeping to our own more linear, accurate, easy to understand lore? (Minus shit like Predators)

I wrote up a lot of unique-to-CM predator lore, but it didn't materialize before I left. I hope at some point predator lore is rolled in to the rest of CM-canon, but it would probably follow a predator rework of some sort. But yeah, predators were initially supposed to be part of standard lore.

On the topic at hand, people enjoy different things differently. For me, CM is most enjoyable when I feel like I've played my character well.

[Philby0]

More like, powergaming has good aspects to it if you disagree with that, then yes, you don't know what you're talking about.

That includes headstaff, you realise that, yeah ?

So um, what possible use do you see for a what, 5 second cloak other than closing distance to shotgun a xeno/use other spike damage weapon, or ambush it with an explosive? Aside from running like a bitch, that's pretty much it.

I don't see how that's not reasonable IC powergaming.

Meanwhile we now have Scout specialists that literally can't use shotguns which is more immersion breaking than them using the things while cloaked (which was not at all); the 'cure' in terms of immersion/IC violation is orders of magnitude worse than the disease ever was.

You're talking about the shotgun, like you didn't see I made SADAR bold in my quote. You literally called a massive rocket launcher a close range weapon. So what the hell are you on about.

[Surrealistik]

That includes headstaff, you realise that, yeah ?

I know what their stances are on hardcore PGers, not so much the softcore that respect IC considerations.

You're talking about the shotgun, like you didn't see I made SADAR bold in my quote. You literally called a massive rocket launcher a close range weapon. So what the hell are you on about.

Actually I didn't, I called it an explosive; nice try though. Here is the verbatim quote, with bolding/underlining for emphasis:

For example we weren't supposed to pair the scout cloak with the only thing it's actually useful for: masking your approach with a deadly close range weapon or explosive such as a shotgun, SADAR, etc.

[Skimmy2]

Arguing about powergaming is fun when muhreens have almost a 70% winrate now, just eat yo popcorn and watch the nerf show.

[CrimsonAerospace]

it's the guy who makes mechanically optimal decisions that ICly make sense and forecast the inevitable direction of the broader meta, and the existence of interesting or illusory choices in a way that's not destructive to everyone's enjoyment: good loadouts, support picks, synergistic attachments/gear combos, barricade placement, etc.

You see I don't really count this type of behavior as powergaming. Having a preferred loudout for your weapon that makes it stronger, or having a system set up that makes Req or Medical less of a hassle, I get that. I thought you were trying to say the more extreme instances of powergaming was okay.

[Sulaboy]

I feel like part of colonial marines is acting like you don't know you are going to be fighting xenomorphs. I go down with a standard pfc loadout with a pulse rifle with rail flash light and 2 he grenades two Ap mags and 6 regular mags. If you are purposely building load outs to counter Xenos that would be meta knowledge. I guess meta knowledge is inevitable. With that question about how the scout spec has no use but to cloak to close distance and hit them with a shotgun Sadar or grenades, lore wise the loadout was made to be fighting clf or upp or who ever would have business knocking out a colonies communication. It would make little sense for a scout to be running around with a shot gun to be attacking an enemy force they would probably be I don't know, scouting. Has no one tried scouting with this loadout, it would be useful to know where Xenos are prowling around maybe they could catch a boiler or something off guard by just finding them alone. Sur you seem like a good player from what I've seen but on these forums it always seems like you are arguing, your guides are neat but even then they go into scrapping every ounce of effect ivory in the game. I've seen you play as an engineer and a doctor. You're a damn good chemist. Well what I'm trying to say here is calm down. One thing that was made very clear to me when I started playing this game is that it is not about winning but rather making a good story. Try slowing down and roleplaying sometimes. Medbay is really nice and slow right now, and medics don't NEED to have all those fancy healing Chems. I know I don't exactly know you enough to gauge your playing but if you are like any other competent Doctor we feel that it's our job to get marines back into the game.
TLDR Marines should think they're going in on a possible fire fight. Scout specs should scout. Sir should calm down and take some time to "smell the roses"

[MrJJJ]

I feel like part of colonial marines is acting like you don't know you are going to be fighting xenomorphs. I go down with a standard pfc loadout with a pulse rifle with rail flash light and 2 he grenades two Ap mags and 6 regular mags. If you are purposely building load outs to counter Xenos that would be meta knowledge. I guess meta knowledge is inevitable. With that question about how the scout spec has no use but to cloak to close distance and hit them with a shotgun Sadar or grenades, lore wise the loadout was made to be fighting clf or upp or who ever would have business knocking out a colonies communication. It would make little sense for a scout to be running around with a shot gun to be attacking an enemy force they would probably be I don't know, scouting. Has no one tried scouting with this loadout, it would be useful to know where Xenos are prowling around maybe they could catch a boiler or something off guard by just finding them alone. Sur you seem like a good player from what I've seen but on these forums it always seems like you are arguing, your guides are neat but even then they go into scrapping every ounce of effect ivory in the game. I've seen you play as an engineer and a doctor. You're a damn good chemist. Well what I'm trying to say here is calm down. One thing that was made very clear to me when I started playing this game is that it is not about winning but rather making a good story. Try slowing down and roleplaying sometimes. Medbay is really nice and slow right now, and medics don't NEED to have all those fancy healing Chems. I know I don't exactly know you enough to gauge your playing but if you are like any other competent Doctor we feel that it's our job to get marines back into the game.
TLDR Marines should think they're going in on a possible fire fight. Scout specs should scout. Sir should calm down and take some time to "smell the roses"

(I won't go into arguing over the bold thing, but it makes me go reeeee)
Currently, the maps are just...after a few rounds of playing, you really can't kinda do scouting, you know where everything is located already by instinct, and which path to take, scout just allows you to know for 100% sure where you are going, the maps aren't like, 1000x1000 and randomly generated to make scouting and cloak very viable in avoiding some NPC enemies, even Big Red and Ice, who i would argue are preety big maps, eventually are easy to remember. The only thing you will be scouting is seeing if there are xenos/marines on the other side of your scope or not, if there is weeds or not, etc etc, preety much it really.

[Amaxin]

My only rant about the community is that it bitches so much about everyone and everything.

[CrimsonAerospace]

My only rant about the community is that it bitches so much about everyone and everything.

I think you meant any SS13 community in general. Hell, ANY community in general.

[Sulaboy]

(I won't go into arguing over the bold thing, but it makes me go reeeee)
Currently, the maps are just...after a few rounds of playing, you really can't kinda do scouting, you know where everything is located already by instinct, and which path to take, scout just allows you to know for 100% sure where you are going, the maps aren't like, 1000x1000 and randomly generated to make scouting and cloak very viable in avoiding some NPC enemies, even Big Red and Ice, who i would argue are preety big maps, eventually are easy to remember. The only thing you will be scouting is seeing if there are xenos/marines on the other side of your scope or not, if there is weeds or not, etc etc, preety much it really.

Scouting as in being able to safely determine where large concentrations of enemies are from far away. It is an advantage to know you enemy's location.

[MrJJJ]

Scouting as in being able to safely determine where large concentrations of enemies are from far away. It is an advantage to know you enemy's location.

Which SL's can already do by using binoculars, along with Sniper as well, hell any PFC or anybody who asks for a rail scope can also do it. Or even better, let a smartgunner have your rifle and have him look through the scope, and he can tell you about the enemy already.

Really thats basically the only thing you will do in terms of "scouting", the rest of scout is actually using it for combat, like quickly going over and shooting that hunter who just pounced somebody who was alone.

[Sulaboy]

Which SL's can already do by using binoculars, along with Sniper as well, hell any PFC or anybody who asks for a rail scope can also do it. Or even better, let a smartgunner have your rifle and have him look through the scope, and he can tell you about the enemy already.

Really thats basically the only thing you will do in terms of "scouting", the rest of scout is actually using it for combat, like quickly going over and shooting that hunter who just pounced somebody who was alone.

Scouts move faster and can cloak to avoid detection making them the perfect units to have detach from the squad to use their binoculars or scope to scout. This lets the bulk of the squad see a larger picture, and have more tactical information. What if the scout could find out where they were nesting marines to send a rescue mission. I think the problem is that people often choose specialist to get kills, with the changes to the scouts available kit it would make more sense to use them in more of a support role. They can see farther than the Xenos when they use their binoculars, and they have a cloak to hide and retreat if spotted. Anybody can scout but the point of having a scout that is specially geared to scouting should be able to accomplish this task with more ease or get better results.

[MrJJJ]

Scouts move faster and can cloak to avoid detection making them the perfect units to have detach from the squad to use their binoculars or scope to scout. This lets the bulk of the squad see a larger picture, and have more tactical information. What if the scout could find out where they were nesting marines to send a rescue mission. I think the problem is that people often choose specialist to get kills, with the changes to the scouts available kit it would make more sense to use them in more of a support role. They can see farther than the Xenos when they use their binoculars, and they have a cloak to hide and retreat if spotted. Anybody can scout but the point of having a scout that is specially geared to scouting should be able to accomplish this task with more ease or get better results.

But thing is, sniper is also faster, and speed doesn't really matter that much when scouting because you have a scope or binoculars, so taking 10 steps, even if for 2 seconds faster, result is the same, i still have yet to see anybody not do the same job as a Scout, his loadout is much more effective for elimination, especially since you can fire *4 fucking incedinary rounds into a xeno*

[Surrealistik]

Scout is essentially a glorified assassin, especially since the cloak, as it stands, isn't useful for much else.

Honestly, I think the devs should just commit to the Scout to being a CQC specialist; maybe rename the spec kit 'Assault' or something; alternately they could make a new 'Assault' kit and give the Scout stuff that actually lets him scout and provide ground intel (like rapidly deployable, or even throwable cameras that hook into the Overwatch system/camera networks).

https://gitlab.com/cmdevs/ColonialMarines/issues/2088

It's unique, and proven effective per Spheretech's example with the shotgun.