Colonial Marines and the Benos winrates are not what you think.

[Kesserline]

Surrealistik, actually, less than 25% of the platoon (on my playtime) uses "effectively/efficiently" the AP (I'll say it directly : Deltas robustos).

If you reduce armor, and increase health, you will not really nerf the robustos, you will RE-NERF the Xenos. Because 75% of the marines will see their damage improved with regular ammo (if they can hit their target). Also, it'll be another marine buff. If we don't need to PAY for AP, we can use EVEN MORE points for additional force multipliers (mortar every round ? Even if useless. Claymores ? Mega metal ? More APRs ?).

The Req-chokepoint is that if you dont send shitload of AP with a continuous-stream, you risk that your marines will get fucked by the T3/Queen at mid-round and even more at late-round.

That means if Req fucks up, Xenos can have more chance to win.

_____________

If you tweak AP and Regular to make Regular more viable and AP more situational, you still buff marines but un-choking Req, which will indirectly gives another advantage to marine, and none to Xenos.

[Symbiosis]

Meta will shift. It's the simple fact of it. If AP is nerfed you'll see even MORE Claymores and MORE FOB's.

The only way to stem the steamroll is faster upgrade levels OR increased Xeno numbers and decrease marine numbers. Robust (knowledgeable) players will always take advantage of ways to optimize their effectiveness.

Marines always adapt.

[Kesserline]

More decent marines are braver too, in my opinion, that matters a lot.

I think that Apophis said that marines would always win if they are well-coordinated, right?

The coordination during assaults especially was awful most of the time when I arrived last summer.

I see now more braver and more aware marines on the Frontline (there are still lots of dipshits, don't make me wrong Eh).

Good offensive maneuvers can break big chunks of the Hive in seconds. I see more and more successful maneuvers and less turtling-shit.

But, perhaps it's just the good benos not playing at this time.. My point of view is sadly focuses on my timezone =/

[Heckenshutze]

I don't feel there's a need to nerf or buff anything, but to teach the xeno players to control their killer instict and give more importance to capture and infect. You know, act like a real xenomorph.

The balance hasn't changed, the game mechanics hasn't changed, Xenos still have the upper hand when it comes to advantages; only thing that has changed is the way xenomorphs play.

[Symbiosis]

I don't feel there's a need to nerf or buff anything, but to teach the xeno players to control their killer instict and give more importance to capture and infect. You know, act like a real xenomorph.

The balance hasn't changed, the game mechanics hasn't changed, Xenos still have the upper hand when it comes to advantages; only thing that has changed is the way xenomorphs play.

You're missing the point of how these victories are happening. The balance of power hasn't shifted dramatically from the individual... but the number of medics and engineers has increased slightly. Capturing is near impossible when marines stick together, even if you DO capture you are now faced with a horde of Marines fighting at your doorstep and Marines resisting from nests.

Marine victories are either turtle based or banzai charge based. The latter being far more successful. Either way, capturing is difficult due to the even lower number of Xenos around. If an engineer drops an incendiary nade everyone is freed from nests and they either suicide or kill the Sentinel. The risk versus reward for pulling multiple Xenos away from the front to guard hosts is only* necessary when the initial marine force is crippled.

Neuro rework as a paralytic toxin would help, but wouldn't be fun for the players. There's no easy answer when 4-5 bullets kill an elite T2 and robust Marines are carrying that weaponry and ammunition commonly. Especially considering non AP basically bounces off senior Xenos. Xenos are encouraged to delay to progress their upgrade level and gain increases strength and Marines are encouraged to charge to either get to the Larva stores or kill the T3 before they become unkillable Gods.

[Simo94]

I dont think so HeckinShoes, I do think the percentage of vets and nubs among both sides are more or less consistent, even more now during school period, in january marines were steamrolling xenos, in first half of feb devs buffed the F out of Queen, and added latejoin free larva, while also nerfing Sentry gun and pseudo medic PFCs, surprise surprise Xenos were steamrolling marines non stop from ded pop to high pop, after that devs increased engie and medic slots, increased defibb uses, reduced starting Xeno numbers, added the new flamer spec and mortar, buffed slugs, increased runner and hunter pounce cooldown, and removed hivemind while queen is ded, surprise surprise marines are winning a lot more now.

[Heckenshutze]

Both of you are right, but wasn't one of the main complains of Xenoplayers the lack of challenge they had fighting marines? Now that they are starting to feel the heat they want to get buffed (or marines nerfed).

So, how we settle this then?

[Symbiosis]

Both of you are right, but wasn't one of the main complains of Xenoplayers the lack of challenge they had fighting marines? Now that they are starting to feel the heat they want to get buffed (or marines nerfed).

So, how we settle this then?

Frankly? It will require some minor adjustments to make certain castes more enjoyable and encourage marines to play them. Right now, there's not very many Xeno Mains on the Spitter side. Or the Drone/Hivelord side.

People OFTEN enjoy playing colonial Marines because of the combat factor. Playing certain castes requires a certain mindset. You can't play a Drone like a Hunter, Prae like a Rav, etc. pretty basic stuff which we all understand. There in lies the question. Why do most hives have a TON of Runner castes, very few drones, and a smattering of Sentinel castes?

In my humble opinion it's because the latter castes are more laid back and frankly lack versatility or provide the same enjoyment.

If you want to SLOW Marine pushes by allowing Xenos to slow them, create an AOE sticky resin like before (busted in a single hit) that drones plant.

You encourage something beyond simple nest building and provide more enjoyment for said caste.

Allow T1's to move through all castes automatically will decrease T1 deaths and provide more versatility.

The game isn't broken by any means, a few tweaks will restore the balance, hell, I don't even think AP is inherently broken either. (Strong as hell right now, but that's tied to no anti pushing tools at Xenos disposals.)


Simply put: provide Xenos with more tools/abilities. If you want more captures give pounced marines a 100% tackle chance so a Xeno can drag them back or devour them. Rather than kill and hide the body the player will likely capture said lone Marine.

[Simo94]

Both of you are right, but wasn't one of the main complains of Xenoplayers the lack of challenge they had fighting marines? Now that they are starting to feel the heat they want to get buffed (or marines nerfed).

So, how we settle this then?

Like I said before, make the hive less dependant on a few individuals, either nerf Queen and buff every other caste, or just buff every other caste, its not right that 20 T1s and young/mature T2s are useless vs FOB for example while a good Queen/Ravager/Boiler trio can breach any defence marines have.

[Heckenshutze]

What kind of tools / new abilities you think would help the castes and cause a Queen nerf?

[Simo94]

What kind of tools / new abilities you think would help the castes and cause a Queen nerf?

there are tons of suggestions on the Gitlab, just to cite a few:

https://gitlab.com/cmdevs/ColonialMarines/issues/2578
https://gitlab.com/cmdevs/ColonialMarines/issues/2541
https://gitlab.com/cmdevs/ColonialMarines/issues/2550
https://gitlab.com/cmdevs/ColonialMarines/issues/2585

maybe even:
https://gitlab.com/cmdevs/ColonialMarines/issues/2641

[Surrealistik]

Surrealistik, actually, less than 25% of the platoon (on my playtime) uses "effectively/efficiently" the AP (I'll say it directly : Deltas robustos).

If you reduce armor, and increase health, you will not really nerf the robustos, you will RE-NERF the Xenos. Because 75% of the marines will see their damage improved with regular ammo (if they can hit their target). Also, it'll be another marine buff. If we don't need to PAY for AP, we can use EVEN MORE points for additional force multipliers (mortar every round ? Even if useless. Claymores ? Mega metal ? More APRs ?).

The Req-chokepoint is that if you dont send shitload of AP with a continuous-stream, you risk that your marines will get fucked by the T3/Queen at mid-round and even more at late-round.

That means if Req fucks up, Xenos can have more chance to win.

_____________

If you tweak AP and Regular to make Regular more viable and AP more situational, you still buff marines but un-choking Req, which will indirectly gives another advantage to marine, and none to Xenos.

It depends on the extent of the HP buff in relation to the armour lost so what you're saying is not necessarily true. Moreover, you still need to pay for AP; what's changed is that its value in points is now on par with its value mechanically because it can no longer straight up disintegrate key aliens.

I'm quite fine with carries being nerfed in exchange for massed fire being better; that's kind of half the point. It is beyond frustrating how relatively useless regular rounds are vs AP against some of the highest priority targets and that needs to change.

Further, if AP costs more points, and its effectiveness is not reduced per your solution, then all Req will become is the 'AP dispensing department' (which it already somewhat is); not desirable.


Beyond this, the biggest reason aliens lose by far is awful queens; the sooner we get a preferential white list, the better: https://gitlab.com/cmdevs/ColonialMarines/issues/2574

[SovietKitty]

over time, most marines have correctly adapted to the game and rarely travel alone, so that's mostly out. even then, elite hunter xxx probably got to them before you did and did a better job of it. when young xenos work with others to try to take down larger groups they either get killed themselves (hence queens often literally ordering youngs to sit on their ass and wait to mature) or risk getting in the way of a bigger and more important xenos and getting -them- killed (or being accused of it, even if it wasnt quite the case)on the retreat, once again resulting in people screaming at them to go sit on their ass doing nothing.

i say "youngs" here but this also applies in general to t1s of most ages, its just most commonly seen in young t1s, especially runnas, because they foolishly join the game expecting to be able to play the game immediately instead of having to wait more

also ps. pure bullshit on "young xenomorphs havent been a problem" the admins put in an impenetrable fogwall on one of the maps for the express purpose of giving xenos bonus time to get old. if that isnt a direct admittance that yung xenos are pathetic i dont know what is

i say "youngs" here but this also applies in general to t1s of most ages, its just most commonly seen in young t1s, especially runnas, because they foolishly join the game expecting to be able to play the game immediately instead of having to wait more

The Error exists between the chair, and the keyboard. It takes maybe all of 5 minutes to go from young to mature T1. You aren't born strong and take time to become dangerous. This prevents a lot of things like Almayer xenos being too deadly too fast, and other things. What are you suggestions? Making young xenos more dangerous? Start off at mature? Try thinking about the game from more than one point of view, you'll understand a lot of changes more.

also ps. pure bullshit on "young xenomorphs havent been a problem" the admins put in an impenetrable fogwall on one of the maps for the express purpose of giving xenos bonus time to get old. if that isnt a direct admittance that yung xenos are pathetic i dont know what is

The fogwall allows time for the xenomorphs to setup, and build their hive. A strong fortified position playing to the hives strength is more important than a few extra runners being mature/elite. So, yes. There will exist fragile, young T1's. It's almost as if this was an intended effect but there won't exist fragile young T1 xenos by the time the marines deploy. I don't get your point.

[Kesserline]

Aaaand two additional USCM Major, without AP.

(Second Major with only 6 AP mags for the ENTIRE platoon, and only because Delta was sent on a death flank, so the Commander agreed and RO accepted).

AP is not the problem.

Marines are better. They attack, they follow. They are brave. Less are stupid, more are listening to orders (probably the squad cohesion buff thansk to the lack of global comms). Squad are more unite. And Delta is more badass than ever.

Xenos are worse. More subject to get flank. Panick easily when flanked or push. Bad reaction time. Only the best xeno players prevent the hive from the humiliating defeat. Cause : low numbers of good xenos ? Too much pressure on the queen ?

AP is VERY good QoL item for platoon, but not a victory factor. Not at all. Strong squads, strong SL, strong command, damn. With those three, you can't beat the marines.

Problem lies in Xeno playerbase. And mostly around leadership.

[Gnorse]

I Don't know, The only reason marines are winning (in my eyes) is that they actually learned to stop being rambos.
AP really isn't the reason since I personally was in a 3-round marine winstreak where the commander refused to hand out AP, RO refused to hand out AP and cargo staff was incompetent.
Buffing xenos because marine players adapted and xeno players remained the way they were is .... meh.

[Simo94]

ppl seem to think marines magically learned to do what they couldnt do in the past 3 years of the game or so, and vice versa for xenos.....no, its just the balance right now is shifted towards marines, when it is shifted towards xenos like the past, no amount of cohesion or tools could save marines, iv seen rounds where there was a decent command, decent SLs and squads that did what they were told, but xenos just stomp them anyways (like when global phermones and ovi queen were first added), like I mentioned there was a series of marine buffs lately, of course there are a few robust individuals but it takes 100+ humans to make a marine force, sometimes even more, and that same robust individual got stomped when the balance was shifted towards xenos, simple as that.

[misto]

don't discount the fact that players learn and improve. they've slowly refined their tactics, learned to stick together, gradually gotten better at not shooting each other quite as much, become less fearful of the enemy, etc. and with the fact that the marines side is a lot more popular to play, that's a lot more people gaining experience and practice day after day.

[misto]

The fogwall allows time for the xenomorphs to setup, and build their hive.

pause and think a moment, here. maybe if YOUNG drones and YOUNG hivelords were MADE BETTER, they wouldnt need as much TIME to build? do you know how much TIME is WASTED sitting and WAITING for plasma to regen in the early round because YOUNGS ARE PATHETIC?

yes, i am suggesting that young xenos be made stronger out of the box so they can start contributing significantly right away instead of being a burden that has to be told to sit around for 10 minutes, which theyre not going to do, because they playing a game to PLAY A GAME and not to WAIT

[TheMaskedMan2]

don't discount the fact that players learn and improve. they've slowly refined their tactics, learned to stick together, gradually gotten better at not shooting each other quite as much, become less fearful of the enemy, etc. and with the fact that the marines side is a lot more popular to play, that's a lot more people gaining experience and practice day after day.

Personally I will discount it a bit, people improve yes, but people that have improved also leave and are replaced with new people. I don't think Marines "magically" finally "understand" how to play and have suddenly gotten robust after 3 years. Now i'm not saying they're shit, but I think it's quite obvious that the balance is shifted due to mechanics, not due to some sorta "Marines finally got good and Xenos are just bad at the game!" Which seems to be a bit of a mindset currently.

Now there has been an influx of bald queens, but it doesn't change the fact that even well known robust Xenos tend to be having a harder time recently as well, and it's not because they just "Got shit" either. Just balance and the meta and so on. Yes Marines learn and improve, but so do Xeno players, and contrary to popular belief, Xeno "Mains" aren't really the bulk of Xenos anyways, it's just Marines that tend to play both sides and picked Xeno for a round, to be entirely honest. I don't know that many players that are entirely "Xeno Mains". I'd be curious to see a poll actually.

[Surrealistik]

Aaaand two additional USCM Major, without AP.

(Second Major with only 6 AP mags for the ENTIRE platoon, and only because Delta was sent on a death flank, so the Commander agreed and RO accepted).

AP is not the problem.

Marines are better. They attack, they follow. They are brave. Less are stupid, more are listening to orders (probably the squad cohesion buff thansk to the lack of global comms). Squad are more unite. And Delta is more badass than ever.

Xenos are worse. More subject to get flank. Panick easily when flanked or push. Bad reaction time. Only the best xeno players prevent the hive from the humiliating defeat. Cause : low numbers of good xenos ? Too much pressure on the queen ?

AP is VERY good QoL item for platoon, but not a victory factor. Not at all. Strong squads, strong SL, strong command, damn. With those three, you can't beat the marines.

Problem lies in Xeno playerbase. And mostly around leadership.

It is asinine to think AP isn't a significant factor in marine wins.

But I would agree bad leadership and bad Queens specifically are the most substantial issue/contributing factor.

[misto]

the most recent mechanical changes to xenos, besides xtreme queen buffs, were a reduction in xeno starting pop. (only a mild impact, but a couple extra matures or elites did help)

and in my opinion, the big culprit, the free larva. even if the free larva have been toned down, they reinforced terribly bad habits of slaughtering capturable hosts.

the hivemind going down if the queen goes down is also a factor, but if the queen died then things were already going downhill sharply, so

the queen updates went off the rails. queens are almost overloaded with buttons and options and yet are always called in to screech again and again just like in the old days, because the rest of the team lacks significant crowd control capacity

[Casany]

General comms were removed and for a while everyone thought it was horrible. The devs and Alien players thought it would nerf marines from the general responses, or at least the alien players thought that. Now the purpose (as stated by Apop and Feweh) of more squad cohesion has taken affect and marines are in general better for it. But everyone seems to forget that so they discount any arguement that perhaps the general comms removal actually worked and marines have more cohesion

[Surrealistik]

General comms were removed and for a while everyone thought it was horrible. The devs and Alien players thought it would nerf marines from the general responses, or at least the alien players thought that. Now the purpose (as stated by Apop and Feweh) of more squad cohesion has taken affect and marines are in general better for it. But everyone seems to forget that so they discount any arguement that perhaps the general comms removal actually worked and marines have more cohesion

I thought it would result in Station Bounced Radio meta which has been true to an extent, but hasn't quite elevated to the level I thought it would.

[Telegnats]

In my time playing SO (read: When I can make the right concoction of oxycodone and vodka) and observing, the general comms removal hasn't increased squad cohesion as much as it has given the illusion of squad cohesion. While for the first ten minutes after landing squads keep their "cohesion" it inevitably devolves into the same garbled mess where a squad's location is a loose collection of general areas rather than at the squad leader. The comms removal, by my estimate, just made it more likely that marines will turn into a singular, mute, deaf horde with the coordination of a drunken rhino that remembers just enough to know that the thing to charge at is probably this way.

The real answer to how we got where we are is frankly borderline unknowable. The effect of the changes that have been made is drowned out by the sheer number of them to the point where every statement is conjecture built off assumption. Unless round statistics for the last few months are made public I doubt we will get anywhere beyond saying "No it's this" ad infinitum.

[ColdSuit]

Personally, my gripe is the rapid pace at which these massive game-changing mechanic changes were enacted. Jan/Feb. saw the Queen buffs, marine medic nerfs, comms removal, new spec equipment, HPR nerf, squad support role buffs, etc. All in two months, a very short amount of time in regards to proper data collection. There has not been enough time whatsoever between changes to determine what affects the winrates.

I am certain that the devs know what they are doing, but we as a playerbase demand data.