the controversial topic of BE's

[Avalanchee]

Blah blah.. never BE'd blah blah

Same here.

[davidofmk771]

BillyBoBBizWorth, how am I supposed to respond to a giant wall of text like this? You have done plenty to insult me in your post there, and seem to believe that everything I say in this thread is about you. You need to stop replying to every post in this thread with a blocky breakdown response to every section. This conversation is being utterly misconstrued and you seem to the the only one really causing that.

Here's my bottom line:

1. When I say stop taking this game "seriously" I do not mean "serious RP", I mean stop taking it "personally". Stop being mad about IC things. I'm not talking about being removed from the round, crippled, brigged, whatever. I'm talking about insults, and fights, and being put below somebody socially. This sort of thing makes it impossible to RP as anything but a robot soldier because any marine-on-marine conflict eventually tends to get one party riled up in a very OOC way.

2. We have a problem with the severity gap when it comes to punishment. As I said, the only true punishment for any crime is either brig or death. That makes no sense IC, and can make real problems OOC. If the commander doesn't want the MPs to put the man who just insulted his authority in time-out, what other option does he have? Death? That leads to a lot of obvious confusion as to what exactly kind of universe we are building here.

Obviously the brig times are what they are for an OOC reason, and a little line of text at the end of round saying who was later transferred to hard time in military prison would end up being worn as a badge of honor. That's why I suggest the ICly harsh but OOCly trivial idea of physical punishments. I understand 'issues' could just as easily arise from this idea, but I think the community might just be mature enough to not go nazi sadist. Maybe i'll suggest it on the github sometime.

3. If you sense any 'seriousness' in my post, it is simply because this matter affects the actual gameplay of this server. I care about this sort of thing because I enjoy playing a character who is not exactly a good guy. I enjoy playing generally rough fellas who aren't afraid to bust some heads over an insult. I feel like that sort of thing, when done sparingly and carefully, adds a lot of fun for MP players and can effectively have zero impact on the round overall.

Some of the suggestions i've seen in this thread worry me a bit, and threads like this are essentially the communities way of saying what they want, that's what i'm doing here.

Honestly BillyBoBBizWorth, I haven't really read your posts in this thread, besides the ones responding to me, because of the formatting. Other people have made inputs themselves that may mirror yours, but that doesn't mean i'm trying to talk down to you. A lot of the things you have responded to as if I was trying to insult you were said with completely different people in mind. However, You DID respond to both Heckenshutze and me accusing us of being the "only one" noticing an undercurrent of players wanting BEs simply removed and, consequently, replaced with staff intervention (What else? Give MPs even more methods of easily disabling and transporting marines to the brig?)

[FearTheBlackout]

I've never had a problem with BEs and I encourage executions of all varieties to remove players from the round when they obviously aren't going to change their behavior. The law and adminhelps are a Commander's/MP's greatest tools.

[WinterClould]

MPs need to nut up and be less shit. Learn how to play your role like a reasonable cop.
CO's need to make better calls on when they dish out their BE's, think to yourself, could the round get fucked if I do this? If it could would it be best just to let the MPs handle it? Maybe some people will laugh when you meme a BE on some shitposter in breifing, but many others ate gonna be salt as fuck because their rounds all memes and trash noe.

Lastly while not all will do it those of you who actually care should put in the effort as a rank and file marine need to do your part in leading by example and behaving how you feel others should. Don't be an unrealistic shitter. Play by the rules. Encourage others to cooperate with your plans to not be a shitter by RPing with other in ways that aren't griefy to other roles or could derail the round in a ooc fucky way. Dont be a trash RP'er while you're at it, be a cool cat that has reasonable quirks that opinions could be formed about you from. Do finger guns. That kinda stuff.

Don't riot in the RO line because the RO wouldn't give your SL his tendies, then attack the MPs when they try and arrest the SL who lead the riot, and don't mutiny the CO when he kills the SL that fucked everything to begin with after the MPs fail to control things.

Lastly remember. Player Reports are great when done right. If you have a real complaint about someone say something. A lot get tossed out the door for being low effort or salt fueled with no rule breaks in them and because of that plenty people are afraid to use it because they think it's pointless, but if someone's acting like a fuck up in any role you can report them. Doesn't have to just be whitelisted people either. Report anyone that's breaking rules that aren't easy to ahelp or are just acting in a very trash way, we've got a rule against being such a dick that it turns into an ooc act of dickishness after all. Make sure to take screenshots of the round as proof and you too can do your part to get rid of people not playing by our standards. Just post it after a round or two later, not right after. Seems less like a salt post that way.



Horray for long posts while on the can!

[davidofmk771]

That sums up my problem. What is more unrealistic given the setting?

A. A bunch of marines dancing and doing finger guns and being senselessly goofy (Not to say having it around isn't appreciated!)

or

B. A bunch of marines talking shit, roughhousing, and even breaking minor laws

I don't want this server to become a place where no amount of human-on-human aggression is acceptable because its 'shitlery'. The staff have done A VERY GOOD JOB at deciding what amount of this is acceptable and what amount is simply too much too often (Goonstation understood the art well when I played years ago), but it seems that could change, and it worries me. I don't want to be this game to become 'tiptoe through the tulips with all your marine buds until the bugs come and make it an actual game'.

I understand that a bunch of people senselessly breaking laws during pre-deployment every round is unacceptable, but I just can't have fun if the only thing to do is talk as nice as possible to everyone (so no irl feelings are hurt) and never ever ever break any marine laws because MPs were too 'shit' (What exactly does this mean? How can an MP be shit without being ahelpable?) and had to be replaced with the, if i recall correctly, old way of simply banning for anything from improper uniform to assault.

And if I can say one more thing, I don't like how much people think about 'rounds getting fucked up'. I saw multiple people berate an admin who worked hard last night to organize an event (when really, they don't have to organize anything at all!) because they accidentally nuked half the map and killed most of the xenos. I understand it may be hard for certain people (and I do not mean this about anyone in this thread!) but not EVERY round has to have the exact same ending every single time. Sometimes weird things can happen! Sometimes you must be removed because you are part of the weird thing that happens!

Generally the staff works to respawn people through the methods available when these sorta things happen (even though they really don't have to) in an attempt to salvage the fun of people who seem to only have fun doing the same thing over and over again, but from what i've seen, those types may never be truly happy unless we simply don't do events and mutinies and anything else besides:

1. Marine steamrolls.

2. Xeno Hive->Front FOB->Back FOB->DS Hijack->SD Defense

From what i've gathered, anything but that 'fucks up the round' for some people (again, nobody in this thread).

[WinterClould]

Shit man for real I spent 30 minutes writing something out. But then I thought to myself about how it all sounded way to much like i was telling people how they should act and was just like, I'm only a mentor. Trying to get you kids to act like adults in a 2d spessmen game... it isn't my place to be yelling at you guys about how to act and follow rules. Just to teach gameplay mechanics. I prolly look like I'm over stepping my boundaries.

Just use your better judgement people. Have fun but not at the expense of the majority of the other players just because you want to feel special. I've done it before and I'm not sure it was worth it. To many people look at me like I'm some kind of shitter noe because of some of the dumb low RP shot I've done and sometimes still do.

I'll let the mods tell you guys what's shittery and what's cool as cucumbers. I'll take a step back from this till I feel like yelling at people for more dumb stuff.

[davidofmk771]

Well my main problem here is the community itself I guess (honestly, the lovable scamp Chen Westington? A shitler?). I don't like that any amount of hostility can make people dislike you OOC. Anyone who knows David Rooder know he's a laid back kinda guy most of the time. However, he has knocked some dudes out for continuously pushing the RO line and knocking people out despite being told not to by their own SL. And he's been brigged for it too.

Know what I did OOC? I pulled up some forum, or an ebook i'm reading, or just watched something. I've never been BE'd (too much of a rat, Rooder knows his limits) but I have been slapped a few times in my SS13 days and sometimes it made me feel a bit ornery, and I just got over it in the end and learned when to hold em and fold em, and when its was time to walk away laughing.

On Goonstation, it was Scoot Grooves and Jay Wolff pushing me over and powerfarting in my face despite my red uniform and stun tools. I think the corporal punishment thing could be similar in that regard.

Has anyone here read Starship Troopers? It's not a great book, and it's pretty long, but there's a few parts I liked. If you like that sorta corny old-time scifi like that, give it a go. Anyways, in the section where Rico is in training,

► Show Spoiler

a fellow recruit is shoved down by his drill instructor for moving off an ant pile during a "freeze" (basically no movement whatsoever, not even to scratch) and punched out his drill instructor. After blatantly and absentmindedly admitting his actions to the camp's officer, he is sentenced to a public flogging in front of the fellow recruits.

I feel like this could be used to great effect on this server with some reasonable boundaries:

1. Only MPs may preform as the flogger (perhaps not allowing the arresting officer to do so either. Keep it impersonal)
2. Marines may only be flogged for serious crimes (including disrespecting the COs authority in the middle of a civil war)
3. NO SPEAKING OF ANY KIND FROM THE FLOGGER (creepyness must be avoided at all costs in situations like this)
4. Any other possible method of preventing people from absolutely ruining this with creepy sadist shit

Admittedly my other idea of allowing SLs to use casual physical punishment for insubordinate and disrespectful marines is a lot more BS to deal with, but I think that too can ultimately allow people to be sassy and rambunctious without being forced from the round for minutes (or even the rest of the round!).

[Rahlzel]

Wouldn't be fun if we had a server where players regulate themselves? And mods being there only to deal with really fucked up shit that can't be fixed Icly.

For that, we would need, first of all, to stop adding more rules; more rules doesn't mean less shittery.

Second, stop nerfing things that can be fixed by the own players, chem abusing? MP and marine law. Research abuse? MP and marine law (or admin intervention for WY to drop in) CO power abuse? Mutiny. In fact, MP's should deal with shitty COs because NOBODY IS ABOVE THE LAW.

Almost all of these can be fixed with players. (MP's). Only thing we lack is PLAYERS WANTING TO DO THINGS BY THEMSELVES, instead they cry to the staff for some fix, like kids crying to their parents; makes me sick.

Same thing goes with xenos, if a xeno is being shit you, as Queen, de evolve that motherfucker for the rest of its lifespan.. really, we have the tools to be self regulated.

Not sure how I feel about your idea on moodlets, but this post I agree with. I've been advocating removing all but the General rules (no griefing, ERP, etc) for years. It's tough, though, when it's easy for a round to devolve from Xeno vs Human to Human vs Human and the Xenos crash land into a ghosttown of a ship.

Which rules would you nix out first and why?

[davidofmk771]

Personally I can't find a single rule I don't believe has a good reason to exist. Sometimes I get worried about escalating things with other marines, especially pre-deployment, but it's there for a reason (briefing can't be a fight club every round). Generally I don't like much how improper escalation works but nixing the rule would obviously work out poorly.

Other than that, I just can't see any issue with the current game. Skills made it so I don't have to pretend I don't know what oxycodone and tramadol are, marine law made it so we don't have to wear armor if we don't like without risking a bwoink (again, IIRC, i've never seen it but it's what i've heard), and the implication of 'proper escalation' makes playing the character I want to possible.

Honestly, I myself don't want to see anything changed. Yes, the reason given for the BE that instigated this thread was silly, but as I said, I wasn't paying attention to what was being said before the gunfire. I don't know if it was justified or not, but some of the solutions i'm seeing suggested in this thread either feel overbearing or unrealistic. I'm not saying BEs as they are now aren't kinda silly, but I don't want to see them regulated to 'serious offenses only' or even removed outright. I just wanna see the brig-BE gap closed.

[Renomaki]

I just wanna see the brig-BE gap closed.

THAT is pretty easy to do, really.

Just make it so that only the most SERIOUS OFFENCE is BE worthy. I remember when the BE system was first introduced, commanders were BEing people left and right for the slightest of slights (Carson himself killing 8 marines for simply calling him names). While BEs are a fewer these days, no doubt there are still incidents where a person gets BEed for something that could have been handled by MPs.

Say, in the middle of a briefing, Jimmy from Bravo starts a fight with Tardo from Delta, disrupting the whole thing and causing a shitstorm. Now, SOME COs might use this as an excuse to execute someone for causing a fuss, but honestly, a few MPs with batons could stabilize the situation decently enough (provided the other marines don't use this event as an excuse to cause MORE shit, which sadly happens more than you think).

On the OTHER hand, say you have an SO who, during a very important FoB defense, decides to randomly fire an OB with no idea as to where it was located, killing a dozen marines and breaching the defenses for the xenos? THAT, I believe, is quite worthy of a personal execution by the CO, due to the fact that THIS ACTION cost him a very vital battle and lost the colony.

Sure, what people find to be serious offences may vary, but it would be relatively easy enough to enforce, moreso since COs now have to mention when they BE someone over the announcement system (I think, not completely sure if always required). If the reason for a BE seems too extreme, then staff can handle it. Otherwise, if it is perfectly logical and everyone agrees with it, then let it pass.

That, and COs need to show more restraint when a marine taunts them, and MARINES need to act less stupid and try to bait the CO into killing them. I had it happen one round, where this one marine kept doing EVERYTHING in his power to get me to BE him, to the point that he tried to slip me on a banana TWICE (and somehow, ended up slipping himself). I kept warning him over and over, but he acted like he WANTED it. I know, RP and all that, but still... You really should be careful not to push their buttons too much, let alone complain when they finally do it.

[davidofmk771]

But see, that's my point. If we choose to make BEs something that can only be doled out on "serious offences" (something that will need to be standardized in marine law) then we give the CO only one option for blatant and public disrespect: play nanny and send them to time-out for 10 minutes while all the other kids go play. It's not fun, and it makes everyone in the situation feel asinine.

My ultimate fear in that sort of situation is that people will then start demanding some sort of staff action for actively disrespecting superiors, which is basically the worse case scenario of this whole conundrum we're facing here IMO.

[Heckenshutze]

Not sure how I feel about your idea on moodlets, but this post I agree with. I've been advocating removing all but the General rules (no griefing, ERP, etc) for years. It's tough, though, when it's easy for a round to devolve from Xeno vs Human to Human vs Human and the Xenos crash land into a ghosttown of a ship.

Which rules would you nix out first and why?

General rules of the server, Marine Law and RP guidelines (made into rules) and ditch everything else.

Remove the skill system and add a 1/3 chance of completing a task you're not supposed to do with a high risk of fucking up. (EXAMPLE: doing surgery as anything but doctor and do a bad cut, break a bone and even kill the patient)

Memers and shitters woud become outcasts by the own marines because nobody wants a retard in their squad, same with xenos.

Make the MP role the most important of them all since you're like an IC moderator and will have to deal with tecnically everything that affects the operation.

The moodlet thing would be an ooc feature to reward/punish players depending on how they behave with their character. Also forcing them to stay In Character, stop the "Main Character" syndrome and to keep players from mixing their own ego with their marine.

[WinterClould]

I don't play on enough other servers often enough to understand what the moodlet system is. Can someone explain.

[Retrokinesis]

This is a topic that has been argued a lot longer than I've been around, but I feel like it's important enough to offer my thoughts regardless. I don't really see any rules that I feel don't need to be there or are otherwise "wasted". Furthermore, I'd be extremely leery about functionally putting moderation in the hands of whoever decided to sign-up for MP/CMP that round, especially with how understaffed, absent, or inexperienced those roles tend to be. What about a lowpop round where there are no MPs? The CO dishing out BEs becomes the sole method of control and, if there is no CO either, then there's functionally no way to resolve anything. I know that's an extreme example but it's one that might absolutely happen and serves as an example of why we will always need at least some staff involvement.

As for BEs themselves: I play a character who is fairly unlikely to ever be BE'd and was in the round where Heinz BE'd someone and had it turn into a full-scale mutiny that may or may not have inspired this discussion. The perception that round, at least among charlie, was that the CO had straight-up executed someone for holding hands. I was actually on my way back to cryo after the BE because that level of command dysfunction that early was a real bad sign when the mutiny broke out, and we did not get involved beyond building the wonder of space known as Fort Charlie.

I feel like this is a twofold problem. On one hand, a lot of marines really do "roleplay" as tremendous dicks that would be bounced out of an actual military so fast their head would spin. You really should not antagonize your commanding officer and then act surprised or offended when you get punished for it. On the other, I feel like a lot of COs also RP that way? Sometimes it really feels like about half of all COs are the "incompetent asshole that lies to their soldiers about flanks, sends them on pointless suicide charges for fun, breaks down completely under pressure, and flees at the first sign of danger while demanding everyone else fight to the death" archetype. It feels like griefing barely disguised as "high drama" and shielded as valid behind the CO whitelist. I get the impression that a lot of COs are deliberately trying to provoke mutinies in the same way a lot of marines are trying to provoke BEs, except mutinies are extremely rare because they're so much effort to do properly and in accordance with server rules while the CO can functionally just BE nearly anyone they want on the spot. Being told all of this is an IC issue when one side has to put so much effort into resolving it ICly that it really is just easier to ignore it because the round is probably about to end anyway or head back to cryo because it's just not worth the effort is a real disappointment. It certainly doesn't help that this seems to be reinforced by admirals also all being rabid psychopaths who hand out BEs like candy, showing up just long enough to functionally remove command from the round (either by execution or distraction) and then flee using admin powers the second the xenos show up.

In short, I do think the rules regarding IC conduct do absolutely need to exist and be enforced more strongly, and that leaving it all up to MPs would be a bad idea. I also feel like COs need to be held to a higher standard than they currently are, especially as a whitelisted role that seems to be given significantly more leeway than synth or predator.

I don't play on enough other servers often enough to understand what the moodlet system is. Can someone explain.

The way it worked on /tg/ at least before it was disabled (fairly recently, for balance tweaking) was your character had an overall mood that affected your speed multiplier. Having a worse mood lowered your speed, significantly at the lowest level, while having a nearly-perfect one (which usually required you to have the bonus from being an antagonist) increased it slightly. Mood was determined by combining negative moodlets like "Hungry" or "Dirty Environment" with positive ones like "Showered Recently" or "Had Good Food". Having an extremely low mood also tended to have other effects, like triggering static on the screen edges or even actual hallucinations.

In theory, it was a good idea with potential to reward RP actions like showering. In practice, people who focused on mechanics hated it because it required you to fed/showered/hugging/petting corgis/smoking constantly and a drop of blood or oil on the ground caused you to start going insane immediately and people who focused on RP hated it because it was the game telling you how your character felt from moment to moment. I can't speak for how it worked on other servers but it really needed very, very careful balancing before I'd want to see it again, here or on /tg/.

[AVagrant]

I got called Soyboy, better BE that marine.

BE's because they have such little SOP are often abused and lead to so many problems, IMO more than they solve.

[Jonesome]

Has anyone here read Starship Troopers? It's not a great book, and it's pretty long, but there's a few parts I liked. If you like that sorta corny old-time scifi like that, give it a go. Anyways, in the section where Rico is in training,

► Show Spoiler

a fellow recruit is shoved down by his drill instructor for moving off an ant pile during a "freeze" (basically no movement whatsoever, not even to scratch) and punched out his drill instructor. After blatantly and absentmindedly admitting his actions to the camp's officer, he is sentenced to a public flogging in front of the fellow recruits.

Yes, a really great book that is the cornerstone of most military science fiction. In fact, Aliens was just James Cameron’s attempt to adapt Starships Troopers.

The main reason I don’t like playing SL is because you basically have no power to coerce or punish marines for disrespecting your orders. As SL I’ve been shot at and verbally insulted by PFCs on the battlefield, and my hands were tied due to marine law and admins. MPs don’t have this problem because of baton/taser, and CE has the flash, but If SLs were given some kind of whip or brass knuckles then it would go a long way to letting them enforce unruly marine behaviour on the planet.

So corporal punishment in the vein of Heinlein would be a boon. I also like the public flogging idea, especially if it left the criminal in crit and had to go to recuperate in the brig medbay.

[Blade2000Br]

Yes, a really great book that is the cornerstone of most military science fiction. In fact, Aliens was just James Cameron’s attempt to adapt Starships Troopers.

The main reason I don’t like playing SL is because you basically have no power to coerce or punish marines for disrespecting your orders. As SL I’ve been shot at and verbally insulted by PFCs on the battlefield, and my hands were tied due to marine law and admins. MPs don’t have this problem because of baton/taser, and CE has the flash, but If SLs were given some kind of whip or brass knuckles then it would go a long way to letting them enforce unruly marine behaviour on the planet.

So corporal punishment in the vein of Heinlein would be a boon. I also like the public flogging idea, especially if it left the criminal in crit and had to go to recuperate in the brig medbay.

if someone is being shitter to the ponit of shooting you, you should ahelp this, as this is literally griefing.

[Brotemis]

I got called Soyboy, better BE that marine.

BE's because they have such little SOP are often abused and lead to so many problems, IMO more than they solve.

I actually agree with BE'ing marines who call you soyboy. It's a low rp meme and challenges your authority as CO to the point that it can threaten the mission if the Marines don't respect the chain of command and don't follow orders, the game just becomes a death match of who can rack up the most kills rather than being the med-rp the game strives to be to tell a story. On the plus side, it keeps the game regulated by the players rather than having to call in moderators or admins to enforce server rules about rp or marine law. You would think twice about meming the commander in the middle of briefing if you knew you could be executed on the spot.

[ComradeCorbyn]

While I do believe that calling CO's 'soyboys' is pretty gay, at the same time saying it won't ruin your operation. Just because some fucker said 'soyboy' in briefing doesn't mean that you can't fight benos and the squads won't listen to you. You should just be brigged for a considerable amount of time. The person your executing is a player who also wants to do stuff.

[Brotemis]

While I do believe that calling CO's 'soyboys' is pretty gay, at the same time saying it won't ruin your operation. Just because some fucker said 'soyboy' in briefing doesn't mean that you can't fight benos and the squads won't listen to you. You should just be brigged for a considerable amount of time. The person your executing is a player who also wants to do stuff.

Guess they shouldn't have challenged the CO's authority and call their respect into question if they wanted to do stuff. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes? I'm not saying it should happen every time, but dont act surprised if it happens.

[Jonesome]

if someone is being shitter to the ponit of shooting you, you should ahelp this, as this is literally griefing.

It wasn't really griefing, it was more a player being careless and continuing to shoot when I ordered him to stop. Probably partially my own fault as well, but right after that he called me an idiot IC'ly. I think when SLs and NCOs are disrespected like that in a combat scenario, they should be allowed to discipline a marine themselves instead of waiting for MPs to solve the problem.